Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread - 2021/22 PART II

[stickty111]

 

[LeafChief]

No need to rush him. Another year playing pro in Finland would be great for him. As @TwineTickler mentioned, he has progressed every year so as long as he continues to do so, there should be no issue here.

 

[Twine Tickler]

On another note, and I apologize to everyone on here who is sick of this topic, but did anyone else hear on the TSN pre-tournament broadcast of Canada vs. Russia about how the KHL/RHF are trying to implement a fine towards North American playing Russians? Essentially having the player compensate the KHL club for developing them as a player and not receiving the fruits of their labor. Effectively to try deterring future Russian players from pursuing NA opportunities. I cannot find any news article to support the claim made on the broadcast, but TSN, and more specifically Gord Miller who made the claim is usually not the one to stir the pot with unsubstantiated rumors.

@Zine, I know I seem to be picking on you about this kind of shit, but this is the type of information that we receive here in Canada. Which is exactly why there are some, including myself that have tainted views on Russian hockey/development. There is a clear intent to keep Russian players in house, and not a clear desire to better the player. In their mind, Russian development is the only way.

I also read an article on the Athletic this morning written on Matvei Michkov by Corey Pronman with respect to his new deal that see's him in the KHL until 2026. I know some of you on here do not subscribe to the Athletic, but here is the article I am referring to:

Matvei Michkov 'will be an NHL star,' but his long KHL contract commits him to Russia for years to come

The most troubling parts of the article for me were:

"Roman Rotenberg is the general manager and CEO of SKA St. Petersburg, a perennial contender in the KHL. He is also the first vice president of the Russian Hockey Federation and heads the management group of all Russian national teams. NHL sources describe him as one of the most powerful and influential people in hockey. He’s also a man who’s relatively unknown by the average NHL fan. “Rotenberg has to be one of the top five most influential people in hockey. He basically runs one of the top hockey countries,” said one NHL executive."

You mentioned last week that Zubov had complete control on this current WJC Russian roster but I think there is definitely more than meets the eye personally. Rotenberg, the man who is clearly portrayed in this article as pro KHL/RHF is also the man in charge of Russian National Teams. He hires individuals like Zubov to execute his vision for RHF. I think its fair to say Rotenberg may have more of an input on the decision making than you suggested earlier in this thread. It is further echoed in the article:

"SKA has become a major player recently in the NHL Draft. They’ve been aggressive in recent years trying to acquire the top young players in Russia. The last World Junior coach and current senior national team coach for Russia, Valeri Bragin, is also the head coach of SKA. Seven of the 25 players on their most recent World Junior team were in the SKA organization. SKA has 11 players on the expanded World Junior roster for Russia this season."

If you pair that with the fact that there are zero North American playing Russians on the current WJC roster, I think there is clearly some room for skepticism/hesitancy. Rotenberg's influence Likely extends well beyond just SKA St. Petersbourg as well. He is clearly trying to rival the NHL in some capacity:

" Rotenberg has expressed interest in having SKA play against top NHL teams like Tampa."

"One NHL source suggested SKA “is attempting to become the 33rd NHL team.”

A couple other excerpts that kind of demonstrate where the head of RHF's mindset is at:

"Rotenberg is a central figure in why SKA has become a power player in the hockey world. NHL sources who have dealt with him say Rotenberg wants to learn how to turn SKA into an elite organization. Others describe him as a sophisticated marketer who has transformed the SKA brand. He’s unorthodox at times in his management style, as for example when he is on the bench with the coaches during SKA games."

"Others describe him as a fiery and passionate individual, a fierce defender of Russian hockey and the KHL. He’s critical of young Russian players leaving early for North America, saying they should wait until they are ready to be top players in the NHL, following examples such as Kirill Kaprizov and Artemi Panarin."

"“I wouldn’t draft someone from that organization [SKA] unless I was an Original Six team or my team had a beach somewhere nearby,” said another NHL executive."

Another Russian publication that was used as a reference in this article quotes the following:

I'm curious to hear what your opinion is in all of this @Zine. From my perspective a Maple Leafs fan, I really don't think it's a good thing to have one of, if not the most influential person in Russian Hockey as adamantly pro KHL as Rotenberg is. It's not good for the NHL and it's not good for the Leafs. I also would argue that this is not good for the player. To insinuate there is only 1 path to the top is not right. Penalizing players for challenging that is wrong IMO. Whether that's in the way of opportunity like holding them off of a WJC roster or in the way a fine like was suggested by TSN on the broadcast.

Do I understand where he is coming from? Completely. He is trying to contain Russian players in Russia. But that is not always what is best for the player. For example, the USNDP did not penalize or withhold Auston Matthews off of the US WJC roster when he decided to develop his game in a superior league.

I hope you can see where some (myself) are coming from now. I have a very Leaf centric opinion on this, so I can also respect how someone else would have a Russian-centric opinion on this as well

 

[SeaOfBlue]

I am not overly convinced the Leafs will sign Axel Rindell at this point, but it would open up more of an opportunity for him and especially Villeneuve for the Marlies next year.

 

[Twine Tickler]

I am not overly convinced the Leafs will sign Axel Rindell at this point, but it would open up more of an opportunity for him and especially Villeneuve for the Marlies next year.

Has Rindell cooled off after his hot start with Karpat?

seems to be quiet on that front. Haven't seen his name floating around much in this thread lately

 

[Mara]

Has Rindell cooled off after his hot start with Karpat?

seems to be quiet on that front. Haven't seen his name floating around much in this thread lately

It's complicated. His production has definitely fallen off - and the team as a whole isn't doing too hot. He was also dropped from the top pairing (he was basically playing as the fourth forward, and it lead to plenty of points and some stupid ass plays), and since then his game has changed a bit. He is focusing much more on the basics of the game, playing more conservative and trying to develop his defensive game, and only taking advantage of the obvious offensive opportunities. He's taking leaps, but given that he was an absolute disaster in his own zone he's still a bit of a liability there. When he's not playing with a top tier defensive/all-round D man his weaknesses really come to light. He's really good, but he's not world class and his deficiencies are too many to see him making it at the top level. You guys should probably just forget about him unless he makes huge leaps lol.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Has Rindell cooled off after his hot start with Karpat?

seems to be quiet on that front. Haven't seen his name floating around much in this thread lately

He has 3 points in his last 2 games but he only had 1 point in the 10 games prior to that. Only has 12 points in 16 games with Karpat now.

17 points in 32 games for a defenseman with no defensive game is not good enough, especially since that is pretty much the same rate he has put up in the Liiga since he was drafted by us.

 

[Twine Tickler]

He has 3 points in his last 2 games but he only had 1 point in the 10 games prior to that. Only has 12 points in 16 games with Karpat now.

17 points in 32 games for a defenseman with no defensive game is not good enough, especially since that is pretty much the same rate he has put up in the Liiga since he was drafted by us.

It's complicated. His production has definitely fallen off - and the team as a whole isn't doing too hot. He was also dropped from the top pairing (he was basically playing as the fourth forward, and it lead to plenty of points and some stupid ass plays), and since then his game has changed a bit. He is focusing much more on the basics of the game, playing more conservative and trying to develop his defensive game, and only taking advantage of the obvious offensive opportunities. He's taking leaps, but given that he was an absolute disaster in his own zone he's still a bit of a liability there. When he's not playing with a top tier defensive/all-round D man his weaknesses really come to light. He's really good, but he's not world class and his deficiencies are too many to see him making it at the top level. You guys should probably just forget about him unless he makes huge leaps lol.

thanks for the update. I still wouldn't mind see what we have in him. We drafted him in 2020, so we don't need to sign him to an ELC this year to retain his rights correct? no rush IMO. If he shows that he can develop in time, maybe sign him to an ELC and play him with the Marlies, but until then SM-Liiga seems like a good fit for him as well

 

[SeaOfBlue]

On another note, and I apologize to everyone on here who is sick of this topic, but did anyone else hear on the TSN pre-tournament broadcast of Canada vs. Russia about how the KHL/RHF are trying to implement a fine towards North American playing Russians? Essentially having the player compensate the KHL club for developing them as a player and not receiving the fruits of their labor. Effectively to try deterring future Russian players from pursuing NA opportunities. I cannot find any news article to support the claim made on the broadcast, but TSN, and more specifically Gord Miller who made the claim is usually not the one to stir the pot with unsubstantiated rumors.

@Zine, I know I seem to be picking on you about this kind of shit, but this is the type of information that we receive here in Canada. Which is exactly why there are some, including myself that have tainted views on Russian hockey/development. There is a clear intent to keep Russian players in house, and not a clear desire to better the player. In their mind, Russian development is the only way.

I also read an article on the Athletic this morning written on Matvei Michkov by Corey Pronman with respect to his new deal that see's him in the KHL until 2026. I know some of you on here do not subscribe to the Athletic, but here is the article I am referring to:

Matvei Michkov 'will be an NHL star,' but his long KHL contract commits him to Russia for years to come

The most troubling parts of the article for me were:

"Roman Rotenberg is the general manager and CEO of SKA St. Petersburg, a perennial contender in the KHL. He is also the first vice president of the Russian Hockey Federation and heads the management group of all Russian national teams. NHL sources describe him as one of the most powerful and influential people in hockey. He’s also a man who’s relatively unknown by the average NHL fan. “Rotenberg has to be one of the top five most influential people in hockey. He basically runs one of the top hockey countries,” said one NHL executive."

You mentioned last week that Zubov had complete control on this current WJC Russian roster but I think there is definitely more than meets the eye personally. Rotenberg, the man who is clearly portrayed in this article as pro KHL/RHF is also the man in charge of Russian National Teams. He hires individuals like Zubov to execute his vision for RHF. I think its fair to say Rotenberg may have more of an input on the decision making than you suggested earlier in this thread. It is further echoed in the article:

"SKA has become a major player recently in the NHL Draft. They’ve been aggressive in recent years trying to acquire the top young players in Russia. The last World Junior coach and current senior national team coach for Russia, Valeri Bragin, is also the head coach of SKA. Seven of the 25 players on their most recent World Junior team were in the SKA organization. SKA has 11 players on the expanded World Junior roster for Russia this season."

If you pair that with the fact that there are zero North American playing Russians on the current WJC roster, I think there is clearly some room for skepticism/hesitancy. Rotenberg's influence Likely extends well beyond just SKA St. Petersbourg as well. He is clearly trying to rival the NHL in some capacity:

" Rotenberg has expressed interest in having SKA play against top NHL teams like Tampa."

"One NHL source suggested SKA “is attempting to become the 33rd NHL team.”

A couple other excerpts that kind of demonstrate where the head of RHF's mindset is at:

"Rotenberg is a central figure in why SKA has become a power player in the hockey world. NHL sources who have dealt with him say Rotenberg wants to learn how to turn SKA into an elite organization. Others describe him as a sophisticated marketer who has transformed the SKA brand. He’s unorthodox at times in his management style, as for example when he is on the bench with the coaches during SKA games."

"Others describe him as a fiery and passionate individual, a fierce defender of Russian hockey and the KHL. He’s critical of young Russian players leaving early for North America, saying they should wait until they are ready to be top players in the NHL, following examples such as Kirill Kaprizov and Artemi Panarin."

"“I wouldn’t draft someone from that organization [SKA] unless I was an Original Six team or my team had a beach somewhere nearby,” said another NHL executive."

Another Russian publication that was used as a reference in this article quotes the following:
View attachment 493996

I'm curious to hear what your opinion is in all of this @Zine. From my perspective a Maple Leafs fan, I really don't think it's a good thing to have one of, if not the most influential person in Russian Hockey as adamantly pro KHL as Rotenberg is. It's not good for the NHL and it's not good for the Leafs. I also would argue that this is not good for the player. To insinuate there is only 1 path to the top is not right. Penalizing players for challenging that is wrong IMO. Whether that's in the way of opportunity like holding them off of a WJC roster or in the way a fine like was suggested by TSN on the broadcast.

Do I understand where he is coming from? Completely. He is trying to contain Russian players in Russia. But that is not always what is best for the player. For example, the USNDP did not penalize or withhold Auston Matthews off of the US WJC roster when he decided to develop his game in a superior league.

I hope you can see where some (myself) are coming from now. I have a very Leaf centric opinion on this, so I can also respect how someone else would have a Russian-centric opinion on this as well

The NHL just needs to go back to when they were afraid of the Russian factor back in the late-2000's/early 2010's and 8-12 Russians were drafted every year, but many of them were higher end prospects like Tarasenko and Kucherov. Those teams mostly just needed to learn to not let guys like Panarin, Bobrovsky, and Zaitsev go undrafted and guys like Kaprizov go in the 5th round when they were better prospects than the vast majority of Russians that NHL teams decide to draft every year.

Instead, we see NHL teams draft a bunch of nobodies that would be long shots to make the NHL even if they played in North America, and Russians have made it abundantly clear that the vast majority of them do not want to come over to the NHL unless they are playing some kind of important role and can make better money than they would in Russia. We shouldn't be seeing guys like Peksa, Chebykin, Bobylev, Akhtyamov, or even Ovchinnikov get drafted. Maybe Ovchinnikov or Akhtyamov could have been 7th round flyers, but not 4th or 5th round picks (and we even gave up a pick to move up and get Ovchinnikov).

And it is not even like NHL teams need scouts in all of Russia. Have one or two guys in Moskow who who goes out and watches Yaroslavl/Kazan/Omsk/Ufa/Chelyabinsk/Magnitogorsk/etc. as necessary, and then just get whoever is scouting Finland to go over to St. Petersburg once in a while. It's a 5 hour drive from Helsinki. That would cover 99% of the good prospects that come out of Russia every year, and it is not like we don't see the best guys playing in International competitions for them all of the time too (unless they are in North America, in which case they are covered by our scouts there anyways).

Arseni Koromyslov - St. Petersburg

Vladimir Grudinin - Moskow

Danila Yurov - Magnitogorsk

Ilya Kvochko - Magnitogorsk

Ivan Miroshnichenko - Omsk

Sergei Ivanov - St. Petersburg

Alexander Perevalov - Yaroslavl

Artyom Duda - Moskow

Gleb Trikozov - Omsk

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Plus Mintyukov, Kudryavtsev, and Gazizov who are playing in the OHL right now. These are my top 125 Russians right now. I have ~5 more later round Russians too, but they all play in Moskow or Kazan (or the QMJHL). It wouldn't be hard to get eyes on these guys, and they are the only ones worth watching. In fact, the three bolded guys are all playing for Russia in the U20's right now.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

thanks for the update. I still wouldn't mind see what we have in him. We drafted him in 2020, so we don't need to sign him to an ELC this year to retain his rights correct? no rush IMO. If he shows that he can develop in time, maybe sign him to an ELC and play him with the Marlies, but until then SM-Liiga seems like a good fit for him as well

His rights expire June 1 of this year. He was drafted as a D+2 out of Europe, and you only get 2 years with them at that point. If they are D+1 (like Holmberg), you still get the full 4 years.

Ryan O'Connell is the only other one, on August 15th. We are not signing him. He's not even good enough for an AHL deal.

 

[LeafChief]

His rights expire June 1 of this year. He was drafted as a D+2 out of Europe, and you only get 2 years with them at that point. If they are D+1 (like Holmberg), you still get the full 4 years.

Ryan O'Connell is the only other one, on August 15th. We are not signing him. He's not even good enough for an AHL deal.

Ryan O'Connell remains the biggest WTF draft pick for me. What a waste.

 

[Knies iT]

Don't love the idea of Niemela back in Liiga another season. He's statistically dominating better than a Heinola who's benefited from going to the AHL.

Not much left for him offensively there. Would rather him take the next step developmentally in a more physical league and learn to defend in tighter quarters against more aggressive forechecks. Likely would have more call-up opportunities with the Marlies too.

 

[LeafChief]

Don't love the idea of Niemela back in Liiga another season. He's statistically dominating better than a Heinola who's benefited from going to the AHL.

Not much left for him offensively there. Would rather him take the next step developmentally in a more physical league and learn to defend in tighter quarters against more aggressive forechecks. Likely would have more call-up opportunities with the Marlies too.

I wonder if him signing back in Liiga gives him a chance at the Olympic roster with NHLers not going. He would be a possibility for the WHC too right?

 

[francis246]

On another note, and I apologize to everyone on here who is sick of this topic, but did anyone else hear on the TSN pre-tournament broadcast of Canada vs. Russia about how the KHL/RHF are trying to implement a fine towards North American playing Russians? Essentially having the player compensate the KHL club for developing them as a player and not receiving the fruits of their labor. Effectively to try deterring future Russian players from pursuing NA opportunities. I cannot find any news article to support the claim made on the broadcast, but TSN, and more specifically Gord Miller who made the claim is usually not the one to stir the pot with unsubstantiated rumors.

@Zine, I know I seem to be picking on you about this kind of shit, but this is the type of information that we receive here in Canada. Which is exactly why there are some, including myself that have tainted views on Russian hockey/development. There is a clear intent to keep Russian players in house, and not a clear desire to better the player. In their mind, Russian development is the only way.

I also read an article on the Athletic this morning written on Matvei Michkov by Corey Pronman with respect to his new deal that see's him in the KHL until 2026. I know some of you on here do not subscribe to the Athletic, but here is the article I am referring to:

Matvei Michkov 'will be an NHL star,' but his long KHL contract commits him to Russia for years to come

The most troubling parts of the article for me were:

"Roman Rotenberg is the general manager and CEO of SKA St. Petersburg, a perennial contender in the KHL. He is also the first vice president of the Russian Hockey Federation and heads the management group of all Russian national teams. NHL sources describe him as one of the most powerful and influential people in hockey. He’s also a man who’s relatively unknown by the average NHL fan. “Rotenberg has to be one of the top five most influential people in hockey. He basically runs one of the top hockey countries,” said one NHL executive."

You mentioned last week that Zubov had complete control on this current WJC Russian roster but I think there is definitely more than meets the eye personally. Rotenberg, the man who is clearly portrayed in this article as pro KHL/RHF is also the man in charge of Russian National Teams. He hires individuals like Zubov to execute his vision for RHF. I think its fair to say Rotenberg may have more of an input on the decision making than you suggested earlier in this thread. It is further echoed in the article:

"SKA has become a major player recently in the NHL Draft. They’ve been aggressive in recent years trying to acquire the top young players in Russia. The last World Junior coach and current senior national team coach for Russia, Valeri Bragin, is also the head coach of SKA. Seven of the 25 players on their most recent World Junior team were in the SKA organization. SKA has 11 players on the expanded World Junior roster for Russia this season."

If you pair that with the fact that there are zero North American playing Russians on the current WJC roster, I think there is clearly some room for skepticism/hesitancy. Rotenberg's influence Likely extends well beyond just SKA St. Petersbourg as well. He is clearly trying to rival the NHL in some capacity:

" Rotenberg has expressed interest in having SKA play against top NHL teams like Tampa."

"One NHL source suggested SKA “is attempting to become the 33rd NHL team.”

A couple other excerpts that kind of demonstrate where the head of RHF's mindset is at:

"Rotenberg is a central figure in why SKA has become a power player in the hockey world. NHL sources who have dealt with him say Rotenberg wants to learn how to turn SKA into an elite organization. Others describe him as a sophisticated marketer who has transformed the SKA brand. He’s unorthodox at times in his management style, as for example when he is on the bench with the coaches during SKA games."

"Others describe him as a fiery and passionate individual, a fierce defender of Russian hockey and the KHL. He’s critical of young Russian players leaving early for North America, saying they should wait until they are ready to be top players in the NHL, following examples such as Kirill Kaprizov and Artemi Panarin."

"“I wouldn’t draft someone from that organization [SKA] unless I was an Original Six team or my team had a beach somewhere nearby,” said another NHL executive."

Another Russian publication that was used as a reference in this article quotes the following:
View attachment 493996

I'm curious to hear what your opinion is in all of this @Zine. From my perspective a Maple Leafs fan, I really don't think it's a good thing to have one of, if not the most influential person in Russian Hockey as adamantly pro KHL as Rotenberg is. It's not good for the NHL and it's not good for the Leafs. I also would argue that this is not good for the player. To insinuate there is only 1 path to the top is not right. Penalizing players for challenging that is wrong IMO. Whether that's in the way of opportunity like holding them off of a WJC roster or in the way a fine like was suggested by TSN on the broadcast.

Do I understand where he is coming from? Completely. He is trying to contain Russian players in Russia. But that is not always what is best for the player. For example, the USNDP did not penalize or withhold Auston Matthews off of the US WJC roster when he decided to develop his game in a superior league.

I hope you can see where some (myself) are coming from now. I have a very Leaf centric opinion on this, so I can also respect how someone else would have a Russian-centric opinion on this as well

you made a lot of good points. However the bolded cannot be used as a comparison because Matthews had many options on the table and completed his time with the USNDTP. It was what he was going to do after that drew speculation, whether he would go pro, go to the WHL (Everett) or NCAA. It's not really the same scenario because his decision had nothing to do with the USNDTP, he was leaving there at the end of the year like everyone else in his class was. Except most USNDTP player go to College and a few like Matthew Tkachuk and Patty Kane go to Major Junior.

 

[Knies iT]

I wonder if him signing back in Liiga gives him a chance at the Olympic roster with NHLers not going. He would be a possibility for the WHC too right?

Probably plays into it. I've seen a lot of Fins penciling in guys like Oliwer Kaski on the make-shift Olympic roster and Niemela has comparable production so there's likely a chance.

I'm also not sure if Niemela even speaks functional English yet. Could be wrong.

 

[hullsy47]

Don't love the idea of Niemela back in Liiga another season. He's statistically dominating better than a Heinola who's benefited from going to the AHL.

Not much left for him offensively there. Would rather him take the next step developmentally in a more physical league and learn to defend in tighter quarters against more aggressive forechecks. Likely would have more call-up opportunities with the Marlies too.

He is a lock to make team Finland Olympic team

 

[Morgs]

Probably plays into it. I've seen a lot of Fins penciling in guys like Oliwer Kaski on the make-shift Olympic roster and Niemela has comparable production so there's likely a chance.

I'm also not sure if Niemela even speaks functional English yet. Could be wrong.

It was functional 1.5 years ago. Hard to imagine it's gotten worse, but with guys like Hirvonen & Kokkonen possibly coming over at the same time it should be a pretty seamless transition. I also think the Leafs have guys like Antropov(?) who speak multiple languages to help these types of transitions.

 

[Twine Tickler]

you made a lot of good points. However the bolded cannot be used as a comparison because Matthews had many options on the table and completed his time with the USNDTP. It was what he was going to do after that drew speculation, whether he would go pro, go to the WHL (Everett) or NCAA. It's not really the same scenario because his decision had nothing to do with the USNDTP, he was leaving there at the end of the year like everyone else in his class was. Except most USNDTP player go to College and a few like Matthew Tkachuk and Patty Kane go to Major Junior.

Yup you're right on that, my bad. I still feel like my point in all of that somewhat remains the same. Auston had multiple choices after he left the USNDTP. He was never held hostage to a certain development path, nor was he shunned for making a decision that bettered his career. There appears to be a clear directive from high ranking Hockey Executives in Russia to keep Russians in Russia at all costs. Even if that cost is the players own development.

I think we can all agree that sending Dmitry Ovchinikov to the MHL for yet another year does absolutely nothing for his development. It is a league he has dominated in for 2 seasons prior and now onto his 3rd. If he was not fit for Sibir in the KHL, and the MHL was the only remaining option left for him to play, I really cannot understand how any high ranking RHF/KHL executive could suggest that Russia is the best place for Dmitry to continue his development.

Him making a wage while playing in the dumpster leagues of Russia is only a benefit to his bank account, not his development. I understand why a player would want to make money while they are slugging it out at lower levels, but to have the people at the top tell you that its the best thing for your development is a directive that is completely self serving IMO. I also think that players might feel like if they leave Russia they may find it harder to get their career reestablished in Russia should they fail. That seems to be the message from Rotenberg w/ SKA, so I would not be shocked if this also is the case in other organizations.

For example: If you're mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa and Friends are all telling you not to do something as it is not "the right thing for your personal growth" and you go ahead and do it anyways. Against their wishes. Do you think they'd be waiting with arms wide open when you come home after you fail? I am sure that is a thought a lot of these fringe prospects wrestle with all the time. But instead of it being their mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa and Friends its their coaches, trainers, GM's, and executives saying this to them. Or in other words, the people in charge of their livelihoods in Russian leagues.

Dmirty is the furthest thing from a shoe in prospect. He has legitimate skill, and legitimate deficiencies. He's a player I'd be stoked to take a chance on where we did in the 5th round under normal circumstances. But at this point, I just don't think any Russian prospect outside of the top 3 rounds is even worth our time. May as well just wait for the undrafted crop to develop faster and attempt to sign them in UFA. To me Dmitry is a similar prospect to Ty Voit and SDA. High upside players, with very low to low floors. At least we have been able to control SDA's development thus far, and we'll be able to do the same with Ty in due time. Dmitry, unfortunately will likely just wither away like the Chebykin's and Kizamov's of the world, and we really will never know what could have been. Even under our control I'd view Dmitry as a semi long shot prospect. But I do think he'd have an immensely better chance at making the NHL

 

[Zine]

On another note, and I apologize to everyone on here who is sick of this topic, but did anyone else hear on the TSN pre-tournament broadcast of Canada vs. Russia about how the KHL/RHF are trying to implement a fine towards North American playing Russians? Essentially having the player compensate the KHL club for developing them as a player and not receiving the fruits of their labor. Effectively to try deterring future Russian players from pursuing NA opportunities. I cannot find any news article to support the claim made on the broadcast, but TSN, and more specifically Gord Miller who made the claim is usually not the one to stir the pot with unsubstantiated rumors.

@Zine, I know I seem to be picking on you about this kind of shit, but this is the type of information that we receive here in Canada. Which is exactly why there are some, including myself that have tainted views on Russian hockey/development. There is a clear intent to keep Russian players in house, and not a clear desire to better the player. In their mind, Russian development is the only way.

I also read an article on the Athletic this morning written on Matvei Michkov by Corey Pronman with respect to his new deal that see's him in the KHL until 2026. I know some of you on here do not subscribe to the Athletic, but here is the article I am referring to:

Matvei Michkov 'will be an NHL star,' but his long KHL contract commits him to Russia for years to come

The most troubling parts of the article for me were:

"Roman Rotenberg is the general manager and CEO of SKA St. Petersburg, a perennial contender in the KHL. He is also the first vice president of the Russian Hockey Federation and heads the management group of all Russian national teams. NHL sources describe him as one of the most powerful and influential people in hockey. He’s also a man who’s relatively unknown by the average NHL fan. “Rotenberg has to be one of the top five most influential people in hockey. He basically runs one of the top hockey countries,” said one NHL executive."

You mentioned last week that Zubov had complete control on this current WJC Russian roster but I think there is definitely more than meets the eye personally. Rotenberg, the man who is clearly portrayed in this article as pro KHL/RHF is also the man in charge of Russian National Teams. He hires individuals like Zubov to execute his vision for RHF. I think its fair to say Rotenberg may have more of an input on the decision making than you suggested earlier in this thread. It is further echoed in the article:

"SKA has become a major player recently in the NHL Draft. They’ve been aggressive in recent years trying to acquire the top young players in Russia. The last World Junior coach and current senior national team coach for Russia, Valeri Bragin, is also the head coach of SKA. Seven of the 25 players on their most recent World Junior team were in the SKA organization. SKA has 11 players on the expanded World Junior roster for Russia this season."

If you pair that with the fact that there are zero North American playing Russians on the current WJC roster, I think there is clearly some room for skepticism/hesitancy. Rotenberg's influence Likely extends well beyond just SKA St. Petersbourg as well. He is clearly trying to rival the NHL in some capacity:

" Rotenberg has expressed interest in having SKA play against top NHL teams like Tampa."

"One NHL source suggested SKA “is attempting to become the 33rd NHL team.”

A couple other excerpts that kind of demonstrate where the head of RHF's mindset is at:

"Rotenberg is a central figure in why SKA has become a power player in the hockey world. NHL sources who have dealt with him say Rotenberg wants to learn how to turn SKA into an elite organization. Others describe him as a sophisticated marketer who has transformed the SKA brand. He’s unorthodox at times in his management style, as for example when he is on the bench with the coaches during SKA games."

"Others describe him as a fiery and passionate individual, a fierce defender of Russian hockey and the KHL. He’s critical of young Russian players leaving early for North America, saying they should wait until they are ready to be top players in the NHL, following examples such as Kirill Kaprizov and Artemi Panarin."

"“I wouldn’t draft someone from that organization [SKA] unless I was an Original Six team or my team had a beach somewhere nearby,” said another NHL executive."

Another Russian publication that was used as a reference in this article quotes the following:
View attachment 493996

I'm curious to hear what your opinion is in all of this @Zine. From my perspective a Maple Leafs fan, I really don't think it's a good thing to have one of, if not the most influential person in Russian Hockey as adamantly pro KHL as Rotenberg is. It's not good for the NHL and it's not good for the Leafs. I also would argue that this is not good for the player. To insinuate there is only 1 path to the top is not right. Penalizing players for challenging that is wrong IMO. Whether that's in the way of opportunity like holding them off of a WJC roster or in the way a fine like was suggested by TSN on the broadcast.

Do I understand where he is coming from? Completely. He is trying to contain Russian players in Russia. But that is not always what is best for the player. For example, the USNDP did not penalize or withhold Auston Matthews off of the US WJC roster when he decided to develop his game in a superior league.

I hope you can see where some (myself) are coming from now. I have a very Leaf centric opinion on this, so I can also respect how someone else would have a Russian-centric opinion on this as well

Those articles are rooted in fact, but sensationalized for clicks; omitting tons of relevant info. It's what sells. But here's what's omitted....

THE U23 LAW
A law is being introduced in the Duma that mandates that players who go overseas before age 23 must compensate their team. Hahaha!...it's a token gesture unlikely to go anywhere.
But keep in mind Russian hockey families have a luxury few in this world have. Kids and their parents pay nothing ($0) in hockey costs once a kid hits 10 y.o. KHL hockey schools pay for it all. Everything, from 10 to adult.
Is it ethical for a kid to have his entire hockey education paid only to just leave at, say, 18? If teams don't receive a return on their investment do they have a right to recoup costs from the individual player?...especially if player's new N.A. team refuses to pay transfer fees?
I dunno.
But this law is fundamentally in regards to transfer agreements and compensation for assets. It's something N.A. and Russia have been at odds at for a while. But of course NHL media will portray it as "Evil Russia is now punishing players for chasing their NHL dreams!" LOL
But, again, it's unlikely this law goes anywhere.

ROTENBERG
It's crazy how he's portrayed as some conniving Darth Vader figure. The most powerful man in Russia hellbent on the destruction of the NHL!!! Sweet Jesus.
In reality Rotenberg is an arrogant, incompetent, dumbass, spoiled rich kid with grandois ideas that people roll their eyes at. The son of an oligarch. He's the dude responsible for the ridiculous Big Red Machine media campaign. Few people can stand him.

But he is influential. Like everyone he wants to keep kids in Russia but knows the NHL is the final destination for our better players.
So the objective is to keep kids home as long as possible and develop them properly for the betterment of the sport in this country. Because going to NA too early results in disaster most of the time. Especially for forwards.
The NHL will eventually get the best guys. But the NHL's "I want him now! now! now!" sense of entitlement is what is frowned upon.

To achieve this Rotenberg has turned SKA into a quasi-NTDP, drafting tons of the best kids to SKA offering the best facilities, coaching and development. Khusnutdinov just signed extension because of this. And for those likely to leave there's still a huge incentive for SKA to develop them for future National Team purposes.
And any U20 coach's roster (not just Zubov) will have a boatload of SKA kids. SKA's talent pool alone dictates this. It's kind of like CSKA back in the old Soviet days.

That said, Rotenberg hardly has full authority. He wrestles with the FHR heads. Coaching selections appear to be a compromise, with the established Federation guys having more pull lately.
But how is any of this anti-NHL? Our entire national coaching staff is comprised of NHL-friendly coaches. U20 coach Zubov still works for the Dallas of the NHL. The Senior Team coaches are Zhamnov, Fedorov, Gonchar and Nabokov; all NHL guys who are on record supporting players' NHL aspirations.
Tell again, how exactly are players being punished/coerced?...or at least more than any other country?

I hope this dispels some myths and answers some questions.

 

[Zine]

Yup you're right on that, my bad. I still feel like my point in all of that somewhat remains the same. Auston had multiple choices after he left the USNDTP. He was never held hostage to a certain development path, nor was he shunned for making a decision that bettered his career. There appears to be a clear directive from high ranking Hockey Executives in Russia to keep Russians in Russia at all costs. Even if that cost is the players own development.

I think we can all agree that sending Dmitry Ovchinikov to the MHL for yet another year does absolutely nothing for his development. It is a league he has dominated in for 2 seasons prior and now onto his 3rd. If he was not fit for Sibir in the KHL, and the MHL was the only remaining option left for him to play, I really cannot understand how any high ranking RHF/KHL executive could suggest that Russia is the best place for Dmitry to continue his development.

Him making a wage while playing in the dumpster leagues of Russia is only a benefit to his bank account, not his development. I understand why a player would want to make money while they are slugging it out at lower levels, but to have the people at the top tell you that its the best thing for your development is a directive that is completely self serving IMO. I also think that players might feel like if they leave Russia they may find it harder to get their career reestablished in Russia should they fail. That seems to be the message from Rotenberg w/ SKA, so I would not be shocked if this also is the case in other organizations.

For example: If you're mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa and Friends are all telling you not to do something as it is not "the right thing for your personal growth" and you go ahead and do it anyways. Against their wishes. Do you think they'd be waiting with arms wide open when you come home after you fail? I am sure that is a thought a lot of these fringe prospects wrestle with all the time. But instead of it being their mom, Dad, Grandma, Grandpa and Friends its their coaches, trainers, GM's, and executives saying this to them. Or in other words, the people in charge of their livelihoods in Russian leagues.

Dmirty is the furthest thing from a shoe in prospect. He has legitimate skill, and legitimate deficiencies. He's a player I'd be stoked to take a chance on where we did in the 5th round under normal circumstances. But at this point, I just don't think any Russian prospect outside of the top 3 rounds is even worth our time. May as well just wait for the undrafted crop to develop faster and attempt to sign them in UFA. To me Dmitry is a similar prospect to Ty Voit and SDA. High upside players, with very low to low floors. At least we have been able to control SDA's development thus far, and we'll be able to do the same with Ty in due time. Dmitry, unfortunately will likely just wither away like the Chebykin's and Kizamov's of the world, and we really will never know what could have been. Even under our control I'd view Dmitry as a semi long shot prospect. But I do think he'd have an immensely better chance at making the NHL

Unlike the NHL's need for instant gradification, Russians view development as a marathon, not a sprint.
Russia takes its time to develop players. It's why a lot of youths receive few KHL minutes initially, but also why a lot of late developers come from Russia. There's no rush. Again, practice is the basis of the hockey. Practice makes perfect.


Speaking of Ovchinnikov - Cool story. In the media it talked about Sibir's coach reaction to Ovchinnikov's u20 omission.
(I'm paraphrasing) Ovchinnikov was sad, and the coach told him to look at Mikheyev for motivation. He told Dima that Mikheyev also never played at the U20 but is now in the NHL with Toronto! Keep working, keep getting better and you can achieve your objectives like Mikheyev!

 

[WTFMAN99]

I'll echo what others have said, the Niemela extension is weird. Seems like he has done all he is going to do over in Liga at this point.

 

[BertCorbeau]

I'll echo what others have said, the Niemela extension is weird. Seems like he has done all he is going to do over in Liga at this point.

Will he burn a year off of his ELC next year if he plays in Liga?

 

[SprDaVE]

I'll echo what others have said, the Niemela extension is weird. Seems like he has done all he is going to do over in Liga at this point.

It's AHL protection.

 

[4thline]

Ryan O'Connell remains the biggest WTF draft pick for me. What a waste.

I rationalize it to my self by believing that it came from the same regional scout that unearthed Tverberg. Cant win em all

 

[JEI]

I rationalize it to my self by believing that it came from the same regional scout that unearthed Tverberg. Cant win em all

He's also a 7th round pick.

Funny that another 7th rounder, picked below him a few spots is a Marlie now after being unsigned by NJ - Matthew Hellickson. I believe he filled in at Leafs practice the other day.