Prospect Info: Marlies/Prospects Thread - 2021/22 PART II

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No idea. I think this is the first time a player has signed with an NHL team and was loaned to the KHL. I assume they could as technically he's "Leaf property" but I'm just talking out of my ass.
If there still isn't a transfer agreement between the leagues I'd imagine that we could. Just wasn't sure.
 
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There are always conditions to loan agreements. Are the current conditions enough for the Leafs to terminate it? Probably not. Does Amirov and his camp agree to terminate the loan? There are probably justifications for the ice time given. There are also some issues with future "deals" with the KHL if the Leafs make that kind of break of their loan agreement.

I'd give it another month and see where Amirov is in terms of playtime and development. There's a lot of politics involved and I think this might be the last time the Leafs go through this kind of loan agreement if things don't improve, but the player also has a say in things... they are human.
 
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I'd rescind the agreement to allow him to play in the KHL, that's a joke.
I'd be on the phone with his agent asking if he's up on the latest vaccination travel protocols and if he was just terminate the agreement and bring him over immediately.

I understand Dubas is a bit more diplomatic and would probably ask that they play him more but I probably wouldn't even give them that chance, they had that chance and they blew it.

The Marlies next some scoring and speed and Robertson being out gives Amirov lots of opportunity for some plum assignments on the PP and top 6
 
Rubins has been called up to Maple Leafs. Any context you guys can provide? Thanks in advance.



What's the context you need?

Sandin is out for a few weeks. Rubins is going to be the #7-8 D. Very unlikely to play unless an injury occurs.
 
Good for Rubins. The guy has quietly been an effective AHL player for years and he may be finally getting his shot. If he performs well he may have a role as a #7 on this team after a Holl trade or maybe a team is interested in seeing him play in a bottom-pair role.

As for Steeves..... I'm very excited if he gets to actually play.
 
Amirov is not in the lineuo today. This is ridiculous at this point.
This is just stupid. Like another poster said in here already, I'd give it to the end of the month and if there isn't a massive improvement I'd yank him. I really don't care at this point if we have a negative relationship with the KHL. What exactly are we risking? As far as I'm concerned, the KHL teams and Russian Ice Hockey Federation does whatever the f*** they want to do anyways. Which is their right to do so, but like the Abramov situation at the WJC last year, it hardly ever makes sense. They clearly do shit like this to impose their power over a situation. They almost shackle these Podkolzin, Amirov type players in hopes to potentially hurt their development enough so that they wont make the NHL and will then be forced to stay in the KHL. Sitting Amirov or playing him under 2 shifts does not help Salavat win. I am sorry, I'll never be convinced otherwise.

To a lesser degree this applies to Ovchinikov. Pretty confident he register points in almost every game that he has registered more than 30 seconds of ice time. How is that an indication that he can't handle more than 30 seconds TOI?

I'm usually all about maintaining those good working relationships with other leagues, but that shit has to go both ways. It's unacceptable to not be playing Amirov on that Salavat roster. There is zero logic to it.
 
This is just stupid. Like another poster said in here already, I'd give it to the end of the month and if there isn't a massive improvement I'd yank him. I really don't care at this point if we have a negative relationship with the KHL. What exactly are we risking? As far as I'm concerned, the KHL teams and Russian Ice Hockey Federation does whatever the f*** they want to do anyways. Which is their right to do so, but like the Abramov situation at the WJC last year, it hardly ever makes sense. They clearly do shit like this to impose their power over a situation. They almost shackle these Podkolzin, Amirov type players in hopes to potentially hurt their development enough so that they wont make the NHL and will then be forced to stay in the KHL. Sitting Amirov or playing him under 2 shifts does not help Salavat win. I am sorry, I'll never be convinced otherwise.

To a lesser degree this applies to Ovchinikov. Pretty confident he register points in almost every game that he has registered more than 30 seconds of ice time. How is that an indication that he can't handle more than 30 seconds TOI?

I'm usually all about maintaining those good working relationships with other leagues, but that shit has to go both ways. It's unacceptable to not be playing Amirov on that Salavat roster. There is zero logic to it.

The only person I am sure Dubas and the Leafs care about maintaining a strong relationship with is Dan Milstein, and I can't imagine he is overly happy with it... Especially if Amirov himself is not happy with it.

The Leafs do not benefit at all from a strong relationship with a KHL team.
 
Was listening to the Mirtle/Siegel podcast that came out yesterday and they had Josh Kloke on to discuss some Marlies. Here is who they discussed:

Joseph Duszak: Finally learning the pro game and how to settle down and be smart. Not always looking to make the high-risk play as in previous years. Sort of like how Liljegren developed. Still a bit of a longshot though based on his size.

Kristians Rubins: The organization, and particularly Keefe, really like him. They are getting him to really learn how to use his size and work to be more physical. Looking to model his game sort of like Muzzin. He may be rewarded with a callup if there are injuries.

Alex Steeves: The organization loves his start and loves how smart of a player he is. Looking to teach him how to develop a bottom 6 game since that is ultimately where he would end up playing. Want to give him more time to adjust to the pros, so don't think a callup is imminent any time soon.

Erik Kallgren: Apparently his name is pronounced with a "sh" sound like Kylington. Maybe that was known, but I did not know that. This was more of a personal take from Kloke than an organizational take. Said before his concussion he looked really good and was wondering if he would have had a look at playing for the Leafs rather than Woll. He also mentioned the Leafs wanted to reward Woll as he's been in the org for a while and while his stats didn't seem to warrant that, I tend to agree. Also feels that if the Leafs get their playoff spot locked and loaded early and they want to give Campbell/Mrazek rest, that they should give Kallgren a few games. Also realizes that is fairly unlikely, but should get some games in by next year.

That was really it. Was hoping to hear about SDA, Abramov and Kral, but maybe next time.
What a turn of events. Happy to see both Rubins and Steeves get a shot.
 
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The only person I am sure Dubas and the Leafs care about maintaining a strong relationship with is Dan Milstein, and I can't imagine he is overly happy with it... Especially if Amirov himself is not happy with it.

The Leafs do not benefit at all from a strong relationship with a KHL team.
100%

I think Kyle has done plenty of things for Dan's clients in the past to suggest that relationship should still be in good standing. He's been more than fair to all of the players we have signed.

I know some on here are less bullish on Ovchinikov and view him as only a strong junior player, I really disagree. I think this is a player that has a tremendous amount of skill and can play with that skill at very high speeds. We should not be ok with letting him sit on the bench all year. He needs to play. I saw something interesting yesterday on the Maple Leafs prospect roundup under the Tverberg update:

Back in the 2020 Entry Draft, it looked as though the Leafs were done for the day when they made their final scheduled selection, drafting Wyatt Schingoethe in the seventh round, 195th overall. Despite having already made 11 draft picks over the seven rounds, Toronto made an unusual move under this management by trading back into the draft at the 213th selection. Moving a future pick to grab one more prospect at the end of the draft, the Leafs used this final pick to take Tverberg, a point-per-game winger out of the OJHL.

It caught my attention when the Leafs made this move as trading into a selection is something this management team has rarely done. In fact, Kyle Dubas had traded up or into a selection just twice prior to the Tverberg move:
  • 2018: Trading into 156th to select Pontus Holmberg
  • 2020: Trading up to 137th to select Dmitry Ovchinnikov

Leafs Prospect Roundup: Rodion Amirov is back, World Junior hopefuls, Miller and Villeneuve on a roll

Dmitry may be a prospect that some sleep on in here, but I really don't think that would be the case for Leafs brass. The 3 picks that Dubas has traded up to get have tracked phenomenally since their Draft year. Dmitry included. They are boxing him out of his own development. It has nothing to do with Dmitry regressing as a prospect. Time to take hold of our Russian prospects and give the double barrel f*** you's to Salavat and Sibir IMO
 
This is just stupid. Like another poster said in here already, I'd give it to the end of the month and if there isn't a massive improvement I'd yank him. I really don't care at this point if we have a negative relationship with the KHL. What exactly are we risking? As far as I'm concerned, the KHL teams and Russian Ice Hockey Federation does whatever the f*** they want to do anyways. Which is their right to do so, but like the Abramov situation at the WJC last year, it hardly ever makes sense. They clearly do shit like this to impose their power over a situation. They almost shackle these Podkolzin, Amirov type players in hopes to potentially hurt their development enough so that they wont make the NHL and will then be forced to stay in the KHL. Sitting Amirov or playing him under 2 shifts does not help Salavat win. I am sorry, I'll never be convinced otherwise.

To a lesser degree this applies to Ovchinikov. Pretty confident he register points in almost every game that he has registered more than 30 seconds of ice time. How is that an indication that he can't handle more than 30 seconds TOI?

I'm usually all about maintaining those good working relationships with other leagues, but that shit has to go both ways. It's unacceptable to not be playing Amirov on that Salavat roster. There is zero logic to it.

The thing is that this is something that every team's fans complain about the moment they have a Russian prospect. This is just the first time in so long the Leafs legitimately have a prospect or two that fall into this category where we actually care about his development. Kizimov is a guy that is JUST NOW getting his first real mintues.... in the VHL... as a D+4. The Leafs throw Salavat a bone by letting them keep a guy who could legitimately be a star player and they reward the Leafs by pretending like he's some random 7th round pick that needs to earn his way onto the team. Garbage.

Think about what is going to happen with Michkov in 2023. Him and Bedard are looking like immediate superstars in the NHL (Michkov is actually looking better, which is crazy), and SKA signed Michkov (2 years?) past the draft. Seeing how the NHL isn't allowed to tamper with his contract, he won't be coming to NA until probably his D+3. Russia hockey is absolutely f***ed.
 
100%

I think Kyle has done plenty of things for Dan's clients in the past to suggest that relationship should still be in good standing. He's been more than fair to all of the players we have signed.

I know some on here are less bullish on Ovchinikov and view him as only a strong junior player, I really disagree. I think this is a player that has a tremendous amount of skill and can play with that skill at very high speeds. We should not be ok with letting him sit on the bench all year. He needs to play. I saw something interesting yesterday on the Maple Leafs prospect roundup under the Tverberg update:

Back in the 2020 Entry Draft, it looked as though the Leafs were done for the day when they made their final scheduled selection, drafting Wyatt Schingoethe in the seventh round, 195th overall. Despite having already made 11 draft picks over the seven rounds, Toronto made an unusual move under this management by trading back into the draft at the 213th selection. Moving a future pick to grab one more prospect at the end of the draft, the Leafs used this final pick to take Tverberg, a point-per-game winger out of the OJHL.

It caught my attention when the Leafs made this move as trading into a selection is something this management team has rarely done. In fact, Kyle Dubas had traded up or into a selection just twice prior to the Tverberg move:
  • 2018: Trading into 156th to select Pontus Holmberg
  • 2020: Trading up to 137th to select Dmitry Ovchinnikov

Leafs Prospect Roundup: Rodion Amirov is back, World Junior hopefuls, Miller and Villeneuve on a roll

Dmitry may be a prospect that some sleep on in here, but I really don't think that would be the case for Leafs brass. The 3 picks that Dubas has traded up to get have tracked phenomenally since their Draft year. Dmitry included. They are boxing him out of his own development. It has nothing to do with Dmitry regressing as a prospect. Time to take hold of our Russian prospects and give the double barrel f*** you's to Salavat and Sibir IMO

Some definitely do sleep on him (looking at you @SeaOfBlue ;)), but the majority see there is something there. The issue is that most of us realized this year was going to be a wasted year of development, some as early as mid-last season because Ovchinnikov was too good for the MHL, had no prospects of going to the VHL, and the KHL team had no intention of using him. The reason he keeps dropping on my board is because it's essentially a year of stagnation even if it's not his fault. Knies at the beginning of last season for instance had one of the highest D-1 NHLe's of any player in the class, and he dropped out of my first round (and obviously NHL teams) when he put up less points in the same amount of games in the same league. His numbers were still great, but they showed no improvement. We find out later he had covid, injuries issues, and the skating was horribly misrepresented, and he's back to looking like he should have gone mid-first round. Let's hope the same thing happens with Ovchinnikov next year (on a lesser scale of course).
 
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The thing is that this is something that every team's fans complain about the moment they have a Russian prospect. This is just the first time in so long the Leafs legitimately have a prospect or two that fall into this category where we actually care about his development. Kizimov is a guy that is JUST NOW getting his first real mintues.... in the VHL... as a D+4. The Leafs throw Salavat a bone by letting them keep a guy who could legitimately be a star player and they reward the Leafs by pretending like he's some random 7th round pick that needs to earn his way onto the team. Garbage.

Think about what is going to happen with Michkov in 2023. Him and Bedard are looking like immediate superstars in the NHL (Michkov is actually looking better, which is crazy), and SKA signed Michkov (2 years?) past the draft. Seeing how the NHL isn't allowed to tamper with his contract, he won't be coming to NA until probably his D+3. Russia hockey is absolutely f***ed.
I think Kizimov is the prime example of what a KHL Successful development looks like from their perspective.

Bury Kizimov until we essentially give up on him as a prospect, then start using the player knowing he is unlikely to ever leave. Even if Kisimov wanted to test his skills out in the NHL, he'd never be in a position where he'd make enough money to make that decision make financial sense. It's actually f***ed up.

Now I am not saying Kizimov would have been an NHL player, but they effectively removed that possibility from happening by not playing him in crucial development years.

For guys like Amirov, our scouting staff is smart enough to understand this f***ing game they play over there, and more importantly the player themselves know that they have a legit chance to be an everyday NHL player. Who can eventually make equal or more money in the NHL. But for guys who are late round picks, they probably think their path to the NHL is impossible. They end up getting bribed with big money to slug out zero ice time, and then by the time they reach 21-23 years old the dream is over. Complete win for the KHL, and we lose every which way because we never really explored what we had.

I am defintely less worried about Amirov than Ovchinikov for this reason alone.

At least Amirov has seen Toronto and signed an ELC. Ovchinikov was drafted in a pandemic, and has likely never even been to NA, let alone Toronto. We really need to intervene IMO
 
Some definitely do sleep on him (looking at you @SeaOfBlue ;)), but the majority see there is something there. The issue is that most of us realized this year was going to be a wasted year of development, some as early as mid-last season because Ovchinnikov was too good for the MHL, had no prospects of going to the VHL, and the KHL team had no intention of using him. The reason he keeps dropping on my board is because it's essentially a year of stagnation even if it's not his fault. Knies at the beginning of last season for instance had one of the highest D-1 NHLe's of any player in the class, and he dropped out of my first round (and obviously NHL teams) when he put up less points in the same amount of games in the same league. His numbers were still great, but they showed no improvement. We find out later he had covid, injuries issues, and the skating was horribly misrepresented, and he's back to looking like he should have gone mid-first round. Let's hope the same thing happens with Ovchinnikov next year (on a lesser scale of course).

Ya I agree, I really don't think there is any way Ovchinkov isn't going to fall on our prospect rankings. But as you said, this was to be expected and its just an unfortunate step in the wrong direction. It's no where near his fault, there just has to be a better way to handle this. Of course we have contract limitations, but I would have much rather given Dmitry an ELC this past summer over Villenueve for example. At least we could have played Ovchinikov with the Marlies. Hard to think that him playing in the AHL would be more negative for his development than sitting on a bench in the KHL for 59:30/Game. At least at that point we would have had control on the situation.

And as it shows on capfriendly, I really don't think contract space would have been an issue anyways as we have only 45/50 SPC fulfilled.

I really think this kid can be a player. He's obviously got to get stronger and play harder on the puck, but his skill and skating is off the charts. I am by no means suggesting he is a sure thing for the NHL, I just want to make sure we give this kid every chance to make it, because as it stands he will just be another Kizimov if he stays in Sibir IMO
 
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Some definitely do sleep on him (looking at you @SeaOfBlue ;)), but the majority see there is something there. The issue is that most of us realized this year was going to be a wasted year of development, some as early as mid-last season because Ovchinnikov was too good for the MHL, had no prospects of going to the VHL, and the KHL team had no intention of using him. The reason he keeps dropping on my board is because it's essentially a year of stagnation even if it's not his fault. Knies at the beginning of last season for instance had one of the highest D-1 NHLe's of any player in the class, and he dropped out of my first round (and obviously NHL teams) when he put up less points in the same amount of games in the same league. His numbers were still great, but they showed no improvement. We find out later he had covid, injuries issues, and the skating was horribly misrepresented, and he's back to looking like he should have gone mid-first round. Let's hope the same thing happens with Ovchinnikov next year (on a lesser scale of course).

Hey, at least Amirov made the Russian U20 team... What's Ovchinnikov's excuse (for not even making the shortlist)? ;)

Amirov is arguably getting screwed by the middling-team dilemma, but that is a stretch because Daniil Bashkarov, who is only 6 months older than Amirov, is playing every game and getting 14+ minutes a night.

Could also be that they are just easing him into things because he came off of a large injury, so I would give them a couple more weeks before I really bring out the pitchforks.

Ovchinnikov is on a bad team with little to no talent and is struggling to score. Unless their HC is trying to get himself fired, Ovchinnikov would be playing if he was an upgrade on their lineup. He clearly is not, at least in the eyes of their HC. Also keep in mind that Ovchinnikov is getting the most minutes out of any U22 forward on the team, and their HC is trusting a pair of 20 year olds on his defense every night. So he clearly doesn't have a major bias against young players, especially since defensemen have a tougher time in the KHL than forwards.
 
I wouldnt say they punish players; they just have common sense. Why develop a young player if you know he's gone at the end of the year? You give ice time and allocate resources to a player who can help you down the line. Any NHL team would do the same.

They sign a lot of these kids to like 2-3 year deals before they're 20. These kids have to stay for those years so why not play your best players who give you the best chance to win then. Can't have much common sense if they refuse to play better players because that player will probably leave in 2-3 years over a guy who is a career KHL player because he isn't good enough to play in the better league.

This is just stupid. Like another poster said in here already, I'd give it to the end of the month and if there isn't a massive improvement I'd yank him. I really don't care at this point if we have a negative relationship with the KHL. What exactly are we risking? As far as I'm concerned, the KHL teams and Russian Ice Hockey Federation does whatever the f*** they want to do anyways. Which is their right to do so, but like the Abramov situation at the WJC last year, it hardly ever makes sense. They clearly do shit like this to impose their power over a situation. They almost shackle these Podkolzin, Amirov type players in hopes to potentially hurt their development enough so that they wont make the NHL and will then be forced to stay in the KHL. Sitting Amirov or playing him under 2 shifts does not help Salavat win. I am sorry, I'll never be convinced otherwise.

To a lesser degree this applies to Ovchinikov. Pretty confident he register points in almost every game that he has registered more than 30 seconds of ice time. How is that an indication that he can't handle more than 30 seconds TOI?

I'm usually all about maintaining those good working relationships with other leagues, but that shit has to go both ways. It's unacceptable to not be playing Amirov on that Salavat roster. There is zero logic to it.


The KHL isn't some unified entity as it pertains to development. Teams are different, coaches are different, GMs are different. Some teams are good with younsters, others not so much.
To paint the entire league with a broad brush is flat out ignorant. Some of you are completely out to lunch with conspracy theories. "OMG! Our prospect isn't getting ice time?...It must be the KHL's evil aganda againt the NHL!"

Bottom line, Amirov wants to play with Salavat. He isn't a sadomasochist. He knows what's good for himself. He knows the coaches, system and the organization like the back of his hand. This is the organization who made him the player he is. He'd rather be in Ufa developing properly than riding buses around in the crappy AHL.
He just recovered from a long injury, give him time.

Btw, looks like Larionov was right about Abramov's WJC usage. Abramov is barely surviving in the AHL right now. 5 points in 17 games for an offensive center? Good lord. Nothing suggest he was worthy of lining up next to Chinakhov, Gritsyuk, Amirov, Khusnutdinov, Podkolzin, etc.
And it's not like Larionov is some anti-North American guy.
 
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The KHL isn't some unified entity as it pertains to development. Teams are different, coaches are different, GMs are different. Some teams are good with younsters, others not so much.
To paint the entire league with a broad brush is flat out ignorant. Some of you are completely out to lunch with conspracy theories. "OMG! Our prospect isn't getting ice time?...It must be the KHL's evil aganda againt the NHL!"

Bottom line, Amirov wants to play with Salavat. He isn't a sadomasochist. He knows what's good for himself. He knows the coaches, system and the organization like the back of his hand. This is the organization who made him the player he is. He'd rather be in Ufa developing properly than riding buses around in the crappy AHL.
He just recovered from a long injury, give him time.

Btw, looks like Larionov was right about Abramov's WJC usage. Abramov is barely surviving in the AHL right now. 5 points in 17 games for an offensive center? Good lord. Nothing suggest he was worthy of lining up next to Chinakhov, Gritsyuk, Amirov, Khusnutdinov, Podkolzin, etc.

You should try watching a Marlies game or two.
 
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The KHL isn't some unified entity as it pertains to development. Teams are different, coaches are different, GMs are different. Some teams are good with younsters, others not so much.
To paint the entire league with a broad brush is flat out ignorant. Some of you are completely out to lunch with conspracy theories. "OMG! Our prospect isn't getting ice time?...It must be the KHL's evil aganda againt the NHL!"

Bottom line, Amirov wants to play with Salavat. He isn't a sadomasochist. He knows what's good for himself. He knows the coaches, system and the organization like the back of his hand. This is the organization who made him the player he is. He'd rather be in Ufa developing properly than riding buses around in the crappy AHL.
He just recovered from a long injury, give him time.

Btw, looks like Larionov was right about Abramov's WJC usage. Abramov is barely surviving in the AHL right now. 5 points in 17 games for an offensive center? Good lord. Nothing suggest he was worthy of lining up next to Chinakhov, Gritsyuk, Amirov, Khusnutdinov, Podkolzin, etc.
And it's not like Larionov is some anti-North American guy
.
Perfect example of someone judging from stats. Abramov has been of the better players on the Marlies after a slow start.
 
Amirov is arguably getting screwed by the middling-team dilemma, but that is a stretch because Daniil Bashkarov, who is only 6 months older than Amirov, is playing every game and getting 14+ minutes a night

Daniil Bashkarov - undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er

Sibir's Youth who get more TOI:
Nikita Yefremov (19) - Undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er

Ilya Morozov (22) - Undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er

Timur Akhiyarov (21) - Undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er

Nikita Shashkov (22) - Undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er


I think it's pretty clear what the motivations are in the KHL. They bury NA bound talent. It's really that simple. I really don't think this is up for debate. There is absolutely no f***ing way Daniil Bashkarov deserves more ice time than Amirov. Not if you want to win that is.

I just wish these kids knew that there were other options for their development. They are so entrenched with this idea that the KHL is the best way to get to the NHL, it's very clearly not.
 
Perfect example of someone judging from stats. Abramov has been of the better players on the Marlies after a slow start.

And perhaps he also had a slow start at WJC and didn't earn his spot.

Serioulsy, some of you people are the equivalent of all the dudes here on Russian forums who are convinced every Russian who fails overseas because the NHL has an agenda that is anti-Russian. Like you guys with Gusev and Semyonov.

Some of you are so unworldly. Sweet Jesus give it a rest already.
 
Daniil Bashkarov - undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er

Sibir's Youth who get more TOI:
Nikita Yefremov (19) - Undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er

Ilya Morozov (22) - Undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er

Timur Akhiyarov (21) - Undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er

Nikita Shashkov (22) - Undrafted, likely to be a career KHL'er


I think it's pretty clear what the motivations are in the KHL. They bury NA bound talent. It's really that simple. I really don't think this is up for debate. There is absolutely no f***ing way Daniil Bashkarov deserves more ice time than Amirov. Not if you want to win that is.

I just wish these kids knew that there were other options for their development. They are so entrenched with this idea that the KHL is the best way to get to the NHL, it's very clearly not.

Well as I said, it may be that they are just easing him in. KHL season is already 30+ games deep, and he has played 6 games in the past 3 months.

If it stays like that long term, then there is another discussion to be had.
 
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