Confirmed with Link: Marian Gaborik and Nick Shore to OTT for Dion Phaneuf (25% retained) and Nate Thompson

[Winger23]

You're right, I don't actually watch any games, I'm never in here commenting right along with you guys.

I'm less defending him and more responding to what Ziggy fairly asked, what does he bring. No Forbort means someone else has to eat--to whatever ability you think he has or does not have--the hardest defensive minutes on the roster for 21:11 a game. Theoretically, that would be Phaneuf, but if not him, then who? Even if Forbort is just there flailing around not being an NHL player of any capability, that's 1/3 of a game of the worst minutes on the roster someone has to pick up.

Did you quote the wrong person? Not sure why you responded to me like you did, I wasn't replying to anything you had said.

My point on forbort is you lose nothing by having pretty much anyone else play his minutes and not lose a thing. That is how bad he has been, of course in my opinion.

 

[Winger23]

Drew Doughty doesn't want to go through another rebuild after waiting so long to finally win a Stanley Cup in his 4th NHL season. Gimme a break.

God forbid we root for a player who is not interested in rebuilding and wanting to win. Gimme a break.

 

[Inner Turbulence]

Remember the fun around here in 2013 when Regehr was acquired ? Has a similar feel to it now. He still had a bit left in the tank. Let's hope there's a bit left in Phaneuf to help solidify the blue line which has been a revolving door all season.

 

[The Tikkanen]

This will be his first time not playing in a Canadian market. Sometimes that can work out for an NHL player who can now focus on just playing hockey and walk around LA in anonymity. "Hey, there's that chick from Girl Next Door and some guy".

 

[SensFactor]

My lasting image of Gaborik will be that awesome breakaway he had in the 2nd period.

Kidding, kind of. He was awesome in 2014 and the season after but absolutely horrid the final 3 years.

Not sure why Ottawa would do this. Would've thought they would ask for a pick at least.

When u see how bad Phaneuf is defensively with his cement block skates you will see why.

 

[KINGS17]

God forbid we root for a player who is not interested in rebuilding and wanting to win. Gimme a break.

Fine, root for Doughty. If he thinks he is going to sign for 8 years with the Kings and not go through another rebuild, he is sadly mistaken.

God forbid we have a management team which can do an honest assessment of the organization and behave accordingly.

 

[LAKings88]

Doughty will get offered 8 years at his desired term.

If he doesn’t want it, trade him.

In a cap world it’s just funny how paying two guys 23 million severely limits your chances at filling out a decent roster.

Pitt is an anomaly, I know.

Gotta build through the draft on the cheap. Once successful, it seems like some ruthless decisions have to be made.

 

[USE Fi]

2015-16 kane---10.5mil 8 years
2015-16 toews--10.5mil 8 years
Salary cap was 71.4mil 2015-16
When Doughty's new contract is going to start, where ever he is playing, salary cap will be about 10mil more than it was 2015-15
Kopitar at 10mil per year, Doughty 12 mil per year is going to be 1mil more than kane&toews but what teams can use to players is going to be 10mil more.
Is it really even discussion that would be brought up?

 

[KingTrouty]

The thing with Doughty, he’s not guaranteed to win in say Toronto. Or anywhere. There’s great players that never sniffed a cup.

 

[bob77]

The thing with Doughty, he’s not guaranteed to win in say Toronto. Or anywhere. There’s great players that never sniffed a cup.

That’s why every team that makes the playoffs has a chance. Some people act like the two teams that won the cup were great hockey teams. I tend to think they were average teams that excelled and jelled and overachieved at the right time. It happens in sports. Some teams seize the moment. Think 80 Olympics, etc.

 

[KingTrouty]

That’s why every team that makes the playoffs has a chance. Some people act like the two teams that won the cup were great hockey teams. I tend to think they were average teams that excelled and jelled and overachieved at the right time. It happens in sports. Some teams seize the moment. Think 80 Olympics, etc.

Right, so Drew should just stay with us! With Vilardi, JAD, Clague, Voynov on the way, the team should be good. At least have as good a chance as any other team that inevitably fizzles out in the playoffs.

 

[KingsHockey24]

I think we could get a decent 2nd/3rd line tweener for Derek Forbort and then just replace him with MacDermid who I miss having in the line-up. Someone who's actually mean and doesn't take shit from peeps.

Muzzin-Doughty
Dion-Martinez
MacDermid-LaDue
*Folin

 

[bob77]

Did you quote the wrong person? Not sure why you responded to me like you did, I wasn't replying to anything you had said.

My point on forbort is you lose nothing by having pretty much anyone else play his minutes and not lose a thing. That is how bad he has been, of course in my opinion.

My point on Forbort, to add to RJ, is that he is not nearly as bad as some portray him to be. He does a lot of things well, in addition to the things he does not do well. Not everyone is Bobby Orr. In today’s game, no one is. So Forbort has his role as RJ points out. Drew has his roles. Muzz and Marty theirs. Etc. I tend to think some people either think we should have 6 Robert Gordons, or at least like 6 D with great offensive skills but zero D skills. To the offense skills people, making this decision would be a no brainer to them. It’s like all 6 of them. To me it’s not that easy if a decision. You need some defense. And if you think Forbort is our worst defensive player, well then we would just disagree. But I do think it’s a role, and if Dion and even if we got another SAH type guy better, obviously he would not be on the team. He would be beat out. Right now guys like LaDue need to beat out Drew, Jake, or Alec to have a spot and role. We should not keep comparing Forbort to LaDue. Their roles are different.

 

[LAKings88]

Forbort is a dime a dozen 5-6 defender selected in the first round.

First round picks should not be spent on goalies or stay at home dmen.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

My point on Forbort, to add to RJ, is that he is not nearly as bad as some portray him to be. He does a lot of things well, in addition to the things he does not do well. Not everyone is Bobby Orr. In today’s game, no one is. So Forbort has his role as RJ points out. Drew has his roles. Muzz and Marty theirs. Etc. I tend to think some people either think we should have 6 Robert Gordons, or at least like 6 D with great offensive skills but zero D skills. To the offense skills people, making this decision would be a no brainer to them. It’s like all 6 of them. To me it’s not that easy if a decision. You need some defense. And if you think Forbort is our worst defensive player, well then we would just disagree. But I do think it’s a role, and if Dion and even if we got another SAH type guy better, obviously he would not be on the team. He would be beat out. Right now guys like LaDue need to beat out Drew, Jake, or Alec to have a spot and role. We should not keep comparing Forbort to LaDue. Their roles are different.

Seems like you bypass the suggestions that Forbort doesn't play up to his size and doesn't necessarily do anything exceptionally well. Most comments critical of him critique his play in his own zone, nobody here is expecting him to be Bobby Orr.

If he's going to play 20+ minutes, he should not be a liability, as he often is when he is on the ice.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Seems like you bypass the suggestions that Forbort doesn't play up to his size and doesn't necessarily do anything exceptionally well. Most comments critical of him critique his play in his own zone, nobody here is expecting him to be Bobby Orr.

If he's going to play 20+ minutes, he should not be a liability, as he often is when he is on the ice.

Visibly impressive vs. actually effective.

Even despite the terrible minutes and his bad stretch lately, Forbort has the best GA/60 on the team (next to Muzzin, who gets polar opposite minutes). He has the 2nd best CA/60 next to Doughty. That's pretty much the exact opposite of 'liability.'

I agree he's been rough lately and has been caught flailing, but in the big picture, he's been our 4th best d-man this year. We surely needed someone more two-way in that role so there's an offensive impact as well, but Forbort is playing a role and has played it very, very well. But this board and the hockey world in general have a fascination (as they should to some degree) with defensemen who 'look good' especially with the puck rather than solid without. Most of Derek's problems start with him touching the puck.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Do those numbers include the number of times he's on the ice when the Kings are shorthanded? He's been on the ice for a lot of powerplay goals against, or in the penalty box like in the Carolina game.

He's also hemmed in his own zone quite often due to his inability to get pucks out, again, that's been happening quite frequently of late with him in particular.

Although he did make a shitty pass to Brodzinski that did result in a goal, he's actually made some decent plays with the puck when the Kings are in possession and maintain control in the offensive zone, he doesn't tend to overplay the puck, but defensively, I don't see him delivering.

Do you have numbers that show how often attackers gain the inside position on Forbort?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Do those numbers include the number of times he's on the ice when the Kings are shorthanded? He's been on the ice for a lot of powerplay goals against, or in the penalty box like in the Carolina game.

He's also hemmed in his own zone quite often due to his inability to get pucks out, again, that's been happening quite frequently of late with him in particular.

Although he did make a ****ty pass to Brodzinski that did result in a goal, he's actually made some decent plays with the puck when the Kings are in possession and maintain control in the offensive zone, he doesn't tend to overplay the puck, but defensively, I don't see him delivering.

Do you have numbers that show how often attackers gain the inside position on Forbort?

They don't, as those were 5v5 #s, but here are some shorthanded #s. More ToI than anyone but Doughty. Better CA/60 than anyone but Doughty. 4th in GA/60 though. He's the 2nd biggest piece of the now-#2 PK in the league.

Agree about him getting hemmed in and that's my biggest compliant, his puck skills have evaporated from his rookie year. More in common with Scuderi than I thought possible. He's good at making the 'safe' offensive play once out of our zone but he really struggles there.

Again no clue how often attackers get the inside position but if it were as much as is said here he'd surely be getting racked up on shots or goals against. Or maybe it seems more frequent because of his role. You'll notice people have stopped complaining about Muzzin, it's because they took him out of the hard minutes almost entirely and replaced him with Forbort.

I'm not necessarily trying to argue Forbort is some savant; he's someone we clearly needed an upgrade on as he's too much of a black hole to be a top-4 guy and really needed his minutes cut back to be more effective IMO. I'm just trying to explain why the role needs some respect and that traditionally it's a role that's gotten crapped on here over the years--someone has to eat the hard minutes. Remember how much Regehr got mocked before coming here, and still got some of that here? That's gonna happen in this role, even for the best shutdown d-men in the league. That's what makes it often doubly astounding that guys like Hjalmarsson and Vlasic get their reps, they have similar numbers all across the board. They get flat out buried statistically at times, and most of that is because they're eating terrible minutes so guys like Keith and Burns can run amok.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Sorry but I'm calling bull**** on them still winning replacing Kopi, brown and doughty. Each of them had brilliant periods of play during the runs.

Leadership questioning is fine, but to come out and say they still win without these 3 is asinine.

I agree with you there to a point. Maybe if you replace Kopitar with Bergeron it's a wash. Maybe not since Bergeron hasn't had to go through a Western Conference playoff run playing against Getzlaf, Thornton, Toews, etc. Brown maybe in 2014 could've been replaced but in 2012 he was one of the top power forwards in the game. And Doughty maaaybe if you replaced him with Keith although Keith being a lefty might have changed the pairs.

 

[lexlavender]

Do those numbers include the number of times he's on the ice when the Kings are shorthanded? He's been on the ice for a lot of powerplay goals against, or in the penalty box like in the Carolina game.

He's also hemmed in his own zone quite often due to his inability to get pucks out, again, that's been happening quite frequently of late with him in particular.

Although he did make a ****ty pass to Brodzinski that did result in a goal, he's actually made some decent plays with the puck when the Kings are in possession and maintain control in the offensive zone, he doesn't tend to overplay the puck, but defensively, I don't see him delivering.

Do you have numbers that show how often attackers gain the inside position on Forbort?

Do you have any of these numbers/evidence, or do you just have personal anecdotes?

Me saying, "What about the 100s of times Martinez missed clearing the puck?" has the same weight.

Luckily, I have numbers regarding Forbort getting beat. See his heat Map below, notice the HIGH amounts of shots that come from the Right side, close to the net. I believe that's Forbort's foot speed failing him, people getting around, and getting close to the net. You can also see how attrocious his penalty killing is in this graph.

By Comparison, here's Doughty:

Here's Muzzin:

 

[tsanuri]

Looks like they have to wait on immigration paperwork for tonight

 

[lexlavender]

Do you have any of these numbers/evidence, or do you just have personal anecdotes?

Me saying, "What about the 100s of times Martinez missed clearing the puck?" has the same weight.

Luckily, I have numbers regarding Forbort getting beat. See his heat Map below, notice the HIGH amounts of shots that come from the Right side, close to the net. I believe that's Forbort's foot speed failing him, people getting around, and getting close to the net. You can also see how attrocious his penalty killing is in this graph.

By Comparison, here's Doughty:

Here's Muzzin:

Blue ares indicate where a below league average number of shots is taken or allowed. red spots indicate where an above league average amount of shots are taken or allowed.

Notice how Drew Doughty is real good at defense because he generally allows a below league average number of shtos everywhere.

Notice how Muzzin is pretty good too, he allows a high amount of shots form the slot, yes, but everywhere else he does below league average.

Notice how Forbort has a big, disgusting, red blot on the right side. There's a super good reason why he only works fine with Doughty, our best RH d-man.

 

[WHOneedsSOX]

Blue ares indicate where a below league average number of shots is taken or allowed. red spots indicate where an above league average amount of shots are taken or allowed.

Notice how Drew Doughty is real good at defense because he generally allows a below league average number of shtos everywhere.

Notice how Muzzin is pretty good too, he allows a high amount of shots form the slot, yes, but everywhere else he does below league average.

Notice how Forbort has a big, disgusting, red blot on the right side. There's a super good reason why he only works fine with Doughty, our best RH d-man.

But if I'm understanding correctly then isn't the big red blot for Forbort on the right side now his fault? Doesn't that mean his partner is the one giving up the scoring chances?

 

[lexlavender]

But if I'm understanding correctly then isn't the big red blot for Forbort on the right side now his fault? Doesn't that mean his partner is the one giving up the scoring chances?

Comparing Folin, Martinez, and Doughty, they don't have a similar issue in that spot. It's possible it has something to do with their partner, but why doesn't it show up elsewhere?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

But if I'm understanding correctly then isn't the big red blot for Forbort on the right side now his fault? Doesn't that mean his partner is the one giving up the scoring chances?

It just means factually that a lot of those shots are coming from the right side when Forbort is on the ice, no more no less. The rest is up to interpretation. Lex was able to qualify this with "I believe." Really strange though.

Going back looking and tryign to see wher ethat comes from. Interesting because Forbort has played 100 minutes with just about every d-man on the roster, including 68 with Fantenberg. Kinda wild how he's been everywhere and helps maybe show why he's in over his head.