Confirmed with Link: Marian Gaborik and Nick Shore to OTT for Dion Phaneuf (25% retained) and Nate Thompson

[bob77]

A left side defender will be lined up against a right side attacker. That right side of the diagram is to the goaltenders left, where Forbort normally would be, and where the heat chart shows most of the dangerous shots come from.

You need to look again? Don’t you? The right side of the diagram I’m looking at is to the goalies right, not left?

 

[bob77]

Im all for trading Forbort. Post as many stats you want, but the guy has pretty much no ability besides being tall and having reach .

I know forbort defenders will post whatever they want but my many years of watching the sport has made my analysis pretty spot on. People defended Dwight King at one point too. Wonder where he is now.

Spot on!! Wow!!

 

[damacles1156]

A Second year NHL Defender is being asked to play 20 hard defensive minutes, and is struggling with it. Ok what's the problem ? Just about everyone in the NHL on their second year being asked that is going to struggle. Some perspective, Muzzin was being asked to do the same last year and this year. Muzzin was getting eaten alive.

Forbort's third year should be be very telling, he will either sink of swim.

 

[bob77]

Seems like you bypass the suggestions that Forbort doesn't play up to his size and doesn't necessarily do anything exceptionally well. Most comments critical of him critique his play in his own zone, nobody here is expecting him to be Bobby Orr.

If he's going to play 20+ minutes, he should not be a liability, as he often is when he is on the ice.

Plus 14 would suggest he is not as much of a liability as you would suggest. Will goals against happen? Yes, it’s hockey, the puck bounces, shit happens, and it ain’t easy. I agree with your points about Forbort mostly. He does have weaknesses handling the puck. Are they completely atrocious? Hardly. Size is using his reach to me. It’s using his long arms and getting stick on stick. Size isn’t about hits anymore. It does help Forbort with strength down low. Opposing F do not blow up Forbort in the corner. LaDue and Gravel do not have the same strength as Forbort. So, I agree that Forbort is not perfect, but neither are LaDue, Gravel, and Marty, and even Muzzin.

 

[bob77]

It was between Forbort and Shore for most boring player on the team: now it is Forbort by a landslide.

The problems with him are the following:

-Basically never makes a memorable play
-Due to that, you only notice when he makes a mistake
-Too many mistakes lately
-Draft pedigree

He's an NHL defenseman but he is not yet--and may never be--a #4 on a very good defense no matter what Corsi and graphs say. I'd love to be able to give him bottom-pair minutes and take him into the 15-18 minute range.

If 8/6/27/Dion can do all the heavy lifting and bump Forbort's minutes down, that would be awesome.

He is very easy to dump on though since he was a 1st rounder and he has pretty much never done anything exciting in his career. At least Scuderi hip checked that guy on CBJ and made him slide on his face for a bit.

You mean he never makes a memorable offensive play, don’t you.

 

[damacles1156]

By all means Replace Forbort, go right on ahead.

But remember that replacement has to EAT 20+ mintues of HARD Defensive hockey. So lets see it, who is going to do it ?

LaDue ? Gravel ? Folin ? Fantenberg ? Dion ? MacD ? Dion might be able too.

Same argument we keep having about Kyle Clifford. Same argument people had about Trevor Lewis until Lewis exploded offensively in the bottom six.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Kris Russell plays lots of minutes, and you see what the general reception is towards him from the masses of Oilers fans (and Flames fans as well when he was a member of their team).

Forbort will be turning 26 in a matter of weeks. This is his fifth season of professional hockey, after three years at North Dakota and a year with the USNTDP. Eight years have passed since he was taken 15th overall in one of the deeper drafts of the decade.

Are we really being unfair to him? Is anyone asking him to be the next Doughty or to be a Norris caliber defenseman? No. Most of the critiques of Forbort has to do with his physical game, how it is lacking, as is his speed. His skating ability for a player of his size was overhyped tremendously. You know who else drew similar hype for being a great skater? Keaton Ellerby.

We all wish Forbort performed like Willie Mitchell, that is who I was most hopeful of that Forbort will turn into, but he doesn't have that presence. There is no commanding presence on the ice displayed from him. He's an easily replaceable player. The suggestion that he plays "hard minutes" tells me that nobody could come up with an answer when asked what is it that he excels at.

There's a reason why they've been in the hunt for an additional top four defenseman and why Forbort is the one being dropped to the bottom pairing. If he did his job so well, this wouldn't be an issue. He's in over his head with the minutes he is seeing.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Delete.

 

[damacles1156]

Kris Russell plays lots of minutes, and you see what the general reception is towards him from the masses of Oilers fans (and Flames fans as well when he was a member of their team).

Forbort will be turning 26 in a matter of weeks. This is his fifth season of professional hockey, after three years at North Dakota and a year with the USNTDP. Eight years have passed since he was taken 15th overall in one of the deeper drafts of the decade.

Are we really being unfair to him? Is anyone asking him to be the next Doughty or to be a Norris caliber defenseman? No. Most of the critiques of Forbort has to do with his physical game, how it is lacking, as is his speed. His skating ability for a player of his size was overhyped tremendously. You know who else drew similar hype for being a great skater? Keaton Ellerby.

We all wish Forbort performed like Willie Mitchell, that is who I was most hopeful of that Forbort will turn into, but he doesn't have that presence. There is no commanding presence on the ice displayed from him. He's an easily replaceable player. The suggestion that he plays "hard minutes" tells me that nobody could come up with an answer when asked what is it that he excels at.

There's a reason why they've been in the hunt for an additional top four defenseman and why Forbort is the one being dropped to the bottom pairing. If he did his job so well, this wouldn't be an issue. He's in over his head with the minutes he is seeing.

Funny We all mention Willie Mitchell in these comparisons.

Mitchell was a late bloomer. He had an injury plagued career to start and was traded . No one really knew what type of player Mitchell would be.

 

[damacles1156]

Forbort wasn't a physical player in college or the AHL or last season. Why all of a sudden is anyone expecting that out of him ? He was always going to be a Scuderi type SAH defender.

If you're expecting Forbort to add a Willie Mitchell type snarl to his game, you might as well write Forbort off now.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Mitchell wasn't a vicious defender though, he just stood his ground, used his stick well, and wasn't a liability on the ice. He wasn't a big hitter either. Look at his hit numbers, they were pretty low, but he cleared traffic and commandeered the ice. He knew how to play angles, he knew how to thwart attackers with his stick, he was a smart player, and he grew into a leader in Minnesota.

Hell, I'd be extremely happy if Forbort turned into the next Aaron Miller. He was another Mitchell type guy who wouldn't necessarily go out of his way to kill a guy with a hit, but he was always cleaning up the front of the net. We are likely asking for him to play with more snarl because he is the biggest defenseman on the roster and because the blueline has gotten too soft.

The team also needed to find guys to replace the holes left by Mitchell and Regehr and Greene. Perhaps Phaneuf can fill one of those spots. We'll see.

 

[BigKing]

You mean he never makes a memorable offensive play, don’t you.

Unless you want to lump mistakes into "memorable", I stand by my original comment covering both offense and defense.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Forbort wasn't a physical player in college or the AHL or last season. Why all of a sudden is anyone expecting that out of him ? He was always going to be a Scuderi type SAH defender.

If you're expecting Forbort to add a Willie Mitchell type snarl to his game, you might as well write Forbort off now.

Rob Scuderi wasn't Rob Scuderi until age 29. Willie Mitchell wasn't Willie Mitchell until around age 28.

 

[damacles1156]

Rob Scuderi wasn't Rob Scuderi until age 29. Willie Mitchell wasn't Willie Mitchell until around age 28.

An Excellent point.

I alluded to Mitchell's late bloomer status a few posts up.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

An Excellent point.

I alluded to Mitchell's late bloomer status a few posts up.

OH I gotcha. I was just confirming.

But then again, for every Rob Scuderi, as Ziggy points out, there's a Keaton Ellerby. Sometimes, you don't have the luxury of time. I just disagree with many who totally dislike him because I see the same sort of similarities in Forbort and think whoever he ends up with in a couple of years will find him very useful.

 

[Sol]

I truly don't understand the rhetoric that if players played the minutes he did, then theyd do worse. That's not even supported by anything. Kempe doesn't get the ice time he deserves but he's better than a lot of our forwards.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Rob Scuderi wasn't Rob Scuderi until age 29. Willie Mitchell wasn't Willie Mitchell until around age 28.

Looking at average ice time and usage, Scuderi was getting top 4 minutes right off the batat 25, but was full time with the Pens as a 27 year old. Mitchell was logging big minutes when he was 24.

Neither were top 15 picks in the 1st round of a very deep draft either. And Forbort is weeks away from turning 26. I’m not sure if he’s going to get better than what we’re seeing. You don’t see too many late bloomers out there.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I truly don't understand the rhetoric that if players played the minutes he did, then theyd do worse. That's not even supported by anything. Kempe doesn't get the ice time he deserves but he's better than a lot of our forwards.

Well when we discussed this before I was careful to point out I wouldn't assume that if, say, LaDue were given Forbort's minutes that he'd be worse than Forbort at them, but he'd certainly be less than what we saw when he was being given 70-80% offensive zone starts vs. soft competition. It's a completely different role and skillset. Like how nobody has really been complaining about Muzzin lately? That's because Stevens pulled him away from the tough minutes. Notice how everyone was blowing up Martinez tonight? Guess what was happening? Most D-zone, least O-zone starts, tough competition, because Martinez has handled it better than Muzzin. It's not a fluke. Someone has to eat the hard minutes.

When I did the examination of Kempe it was the same thing. Someone was complaining about Shore getting so much icetime but the problem was when Kempe got Shore's tough comp/minutes he was getting absolutely clowned.

With Forbort, by the raw metrics, he's done better than anyone not named Doughty or Muzzin despite the hardest minutes. That's important. However--in HIS case in particular, I don't think he'd be BETTER with easier minutes because that's not his skillset. YOu keep a guy like Forbort so you can unleash guys like LaDue.

It's a role thing, not sure why it's so controversial.

 

[Sol]

Well when we discussed this before I was careful to point out I wouldn't assume that if, say, LaDue were given Forbort's minutes that he'd be worse than Forbort at them, but he'd certainly be less than what we saw when he was being given 70-80% offensive zone starts vs. soft competition. It's a completely different role and skillset. Like how nobody has really been complaining about Muzzin lately? That's because Stevens pulled him away from the tough minutes. Notice how everyone was blowing up Martinez tonight? Guess what was happening? Most D-zone, least O-zone starts, tough competition, because Martinez has handled it better than Muzzin. It's not a fluke. Someone has to eat the hard minutes.

When I did the examination of Kempe it was the same thing. Someone was complaining about Shore getting so much icetime but the problem was when Kempe got Shore's tough comp/minutes he was getting absolutely clowned.

With Forbort, by the raw metrics, he's done better than anyone not named Doughty or Muzzin despite the hardest minutes. That's important. However--in HIS case in particular, I don't think he'd be BETTER with easier minutes because that's not his skillset. YOu keep a guy like Forbort so you can unleash guys like LaDue.

It's a role thing, not sure why it's so controversial.

Fair point, but i do think they should try LaDue to see if he can do better.

 

[Mooy04]

Fair point, but i do think they should try LaDue to see if he can do better.

You mean if he can LaDue better.

 

[The Tikkanen]

Do we have any King fans who absolutely hated this trade maybe have a change of heart after the initial drama wore off? I know losing Shore was hard on some fans. Like losing Eric Belanger, Derek Armstrong or Pat Conacher.

 

[Martyros]

Forbort + Toffoli + Doughty's norris trophy for Karlsson!

I heard sens fans value norris trophies quite highly.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Does this Phaneuf deal smell of a Lombardi type move to try and salvage a team barely in the playoffs? Kings could have more low risk move to improve the D and bought out Gaborik at the end of the season.

This move appeased Doughty, but Phaneuf is 33 pretty soon and looked pretty slow out there in the past few games.

I really hope the Kings don't deal assets or tie up cap room for another short term rental. The Lucic and Sekera moves really hurt this franchise for the past few years.

 

[johnjm22]

Does this Phaneuf deal smell of a Lombardi type move to try and salvage a team barely in the playoffs? Kings could have more low risk move to improve the D and bought out Gaborik at the end of the season.

This move appeased Doughty, but Phaneuf is 33 pretty soon and looked pretty slow out there in the past few games.

I really hope the Kings don't deal assets or tie up cap room for another short term rental. The Lucic and Sekera moves really hurt this franchise for the past few years.

There's no risk in this deal at all. The Kings didn't give up anything really.

Phanuef at 5.25M is easier to move than Gaborik at 4.875M.

 

[AlphaBravo]

Phaneuf is also younger than Gaborik, plays more games in a season than Gaborik, and fills a void on our team. I don't understand why there is any criticism regarding this deal. Its not like Blake traded for Phaneuf without Gaborik going back the other way--now that is a deal that would be fairly criticized. But if Gaborik misses a lot of games every season, can't cut it in the bottom 6, and is not good enough anymore to play on the top 6, why not get rid of him for a player that, at worst, can play on our bottom pairing?