Marc Bergevin Press Conference 1 PM

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jaffy27

From Russia wth Pain
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Bergevin believes in paying for past performance, other GMs believe in paying for future performance.

Carolina didn't acquire Kotkaniemi so that he can score 5 goals.
And how do you base your future performance??

probably with past performance right?

But judging by your tone you all good with KK making 6.1m$? Maybe he should've handed Galchenyuk a 9m$ a year contract based on his projection coming off a 30 goal campaign.
 

417

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The 6.1M figure represents the value of the cost to acquire his rights. That's the amount the Canes had figured would force the Habs to not match.

It was not and is not meant to be reflective of the value of the player today.

So saying 6.1M for 5 goals is completely irrelevant.
 

aresknights

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A 1st, a 3rd plus 6 mil was the cost to Canes for a "show me year" of KK. That's steep. I wonder if Waddell coulda just traded for him for just a 1st n 3rd n saved a bunch of $ signing him 3-4 years.
Wasn't it at the presser MB said trade offers were less than 1st/3rd
 

CHfan1

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A 1st, a 3rd plus 6 mil was the cost to Canes for a "show me year" of KK. That's steep. I wonder if Waddell coulda just traded for him for just a 1st n 3rd n saved a bunch of $ signing him 3-4 years.
Wasn't it at the presser MB said trade offers were less than 1st/3rd

It definitely seems like a lot and KK will have a hard time living up to that contract this season (I don’t think he does this season).

But with Gardiner going on LTIR they had cap room, so why not spend it on a young centre (who has struggled) but has upside, especially if they can sign him to a long term contract later with a lower AAV.

They can be a contender so I see the 1st rounder being lower, probably in the 20’s. In the East they are one of the top teams behind Tampa.

While the offers for KK may have been lower we don’t know what it would have taken for Bergevin to actually trade KK. Would he have accepted a later 1st and 3rd for him before this offer sheet came down?

It’s a big risk for Carolina but if it pays off they’ll have another good young centre added to their franchise.
 

Habs Halifax

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It definitely seems like a lot and KK will have a hard time living up to that contract this season (I don’t think he does this season).

But with Gardiner going on LTIR they had cap room, so why not spend it on a young centre (who has struggled) but has upside, especially if they can sign him to a long term contract later with a lower AAV.

They can be a contender so I see the 1st rounder being lower, probably in the 20’s. In the East they are one of the top teams behind Tampa.

While the offers for KK may have been lower we don’t know what it would have taken for Bergevin to actually trade KK. Would he have accepted a later 1st and 3rd for him before this offer sheet came down?

It’s a big risk for Carolina but if it pays off they’ll have another good young centre added to their franchise.

Big risk to the Canes and there is no way they do this if we didn't offer sheet Aho. Could back fire on the Habs if KK turns into the Center we needed him to but that's guess work and if he has prolonged struggles, it's going to back fire on the Canes. Especially if they have unforeseen circumstances that gives them a difficult season. Not probable but it could happen. I'd bet money the pick is 15-25 range but nobody would bet their house on it.
 

417

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Feb 20, 2003
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A 1st, a 3rd plus 6 mil was the cost to Canes for a "show me year" of KK. That's steep. I wonder if Waddell coulda just traded for him for just a 1st n 3rd n saved a bunch of $ signing him 3-4 years.
Wasn't it at the presser MB said trade offers were less than 1st/3rd
It's more like a 1st + 3rd (2 unknown quantities) + about 3M.

It's not that steep IF you rate the player as a team.
 

Kriss E

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If you Believe Waddell and that shit sandwich he's trying to feed everyone then I'm left with no choice but to assume you believe in Santa Claus also.

I don't care how high you are on a player, you don't pay 6.1m$ for a 5 goal scorer who's been declining since his first year, not a chance you do that and if Bergevin would do this you'd be destroying him and his incompetency's and you know damn well you would.

heck, Bergevin paid Anderson 5.5m$ after a 1 goal injury plagued season but prior to that that player had scored 27 and people were losing their minds but the other GM is somehow now a visionary and it's all good lol
Hmm..so..
Option A: GM was high on a player and decided to overpay to get him via offersheet.
Option B: GM is so grudgeful he decided to waste 6.1M+1st+3rd so he can steal a player he doesn't like all that much.

Ya..im the one believing in Santa Clause.
 
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dcyhabs

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Either Dundon overruled his team to piss off the habs at a financial and competitive loss or they expect JK to break out in the next year or two such that he is worth at least 4M per season with an additional 2M signing bonus, plus the picks. The canes need him to become a second line player within 2-3 years. It's not a crazy expectation, especially if they have better coaching and development than the habs, and think they know what to work on.

Rumor is they have a handshake agreement for several years at 4M per. I wonder what the agreement will be worth if KK breaks out such that he is worth more?
 

salbutera

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Hmm..so..
Option A: GM was high on a player and decided to overpay to get him via offersheet.
Option B: GM is so grudgeful he decided to waste 6.1M+1st+3rd so he can steal a player he doesn't like all that much.

Ya..im the one believing in Santa Clause.
LeBrun & Friedman had tweeted following the offer sheet submission, Canes hockey Ops were not in agreement but mandate came from ownership. Time will tell...

If KK has a difficult start leading into Xmas, I suspect he’ll have a difficult time dealing with Dundon who’s a very bottom line owner
 

nhlfan9191

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Bergevin decides to play KK on the wing, this would earn him 47 pages of a shit kicking on this forum....but Waddell does it and now he's a genius, a visionary.

Don Waddell does have a chance to look like a genius if he plays Kotkaniemi on the wing and he succeeds. He however has a chance to make Bergevin look like a genius by letting him go as well if he doesn’t show any growth. This is a move that can only be judged with time given the age of Kotkaniemi.
 

Miller Time

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The 6.1M figure represents the value of the cost to acquire his rights. That's the amount the Canes had figured would force the Habs to not match.

It was not and is not meant to be reflective of the value of the player today.

So saying 6.1M for 5 goals is completely irrelevant.

amazing how simple that is, and yet how much some seem to struggle to understand it :dunno:
 
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Kriss E

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Bergevin decides to play KK on the wing, this would earn him 47 pages of a shit kicking on this forum....but Waddell does it and now he's a genius, a visionary.
Context..I wonder when people will ever learn to apply it.
When Aho and Trocheck is your two top centers, moving KK to wing made sense.
When you have Danault is in the top two, then no.
 
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Kriss E

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LeBrun & Friedman had tweeted following the offer sheet submission, Canes hockey Ops were not in agreement but mandate came from ownership. Time will tell...

If KK has a difficult start leading into Xmas, I suspect he’ll have a difficult time dealing with Dundon who’s a very bottom line owner
I'm sure there is constant disagreements among executives. In no way does this mean they made this move out of pettiness.
 
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CHfan1

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Don Waddell does have a chance to look like a genius if he plays Kotkaniemi on the wing and he succeeds. He however has a chance to make Bergevin look like a genius by letting him go as well if he doesn’t show any growth. This is a move that can only be judged with time given the age of Kotkaniemi.

Unfortunately this is not how this fanbase and this board works (with Kotkaniemi or any prospect or even the team). He’ll be judged as a bust or breakout player on a game by game basis. When Carolina plays the Habs on October 21st I’m sure sure it’ll be on a shift by shift basis. He falls - bust, ends up scoring - he’s breaking out.
 

salbutera

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I'm sure there is constant disagreements among executives. In no way does this mean they made this move out of pettiness.
The reality is only Dundon /Waddell (Canes org) know for sure. Dundon himself said they would not have submitted an offer sheet had Habs not done so for Aho

Only time will tell
 
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Miller Time

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Don Waddell does have a chance to look like a genius if he plays Kotkaniemi on the wing and he succeeds. He however has a chance to make Bergevin look like a genius by letting him go as well if he doesn’t show any growth. This is a move that can only be judged with time given the age of Kotkaniemi.

yup... risk/reward.

i tend to think evaluating trades needs to happen at the time of the trade/signing et. So many variables can affect the subsequent success or failure of a player, or team, that all hindsight-based takes are less about the decision at the time and more about evaluating how it turned out.

in this case, from the Canes POV, i think it's a pretty good move. The risk is that JKO makes no progression this year and plays hardball with the QO so that they have to either walk away, or pay an inlfated premium for him a second year in a row, which would have negative effects on both their cap situation and their other RFA negotiations. But, if he struggles and he's willing to sign a "bridge" or performance-related next RFA deal with them at a number much closer to his actual level of play... then it's still solid for them. JKO doesn't need to shine this year.

the reward is that either this year, or in the next 2-3 years, JKO takes a big step forward and establishes himself as a quality top-6 or top-line caliber performer. at the cost of what is likely to be a late 1st and late 3rd, that is great value for them.

For the habs... it was a bad situation. A loss at the time of the move. That we salvaged it a bit by making an ok (though not without risk) move for a player that is sure to be a solid middle 6 C, with some potential to be an elite 2C and maybe even a quality top-line caliber, lessens the risk and the overall negative impact of the blunder... but even if we take the two moves together, we're left with JKO+2nd for Dvorak + 3rd... not great asset management today, with 50/50 that hindsight comes out in our favor on that scale.

MB continues to show a very poor ability to roster build and manage assets. That so many of his enthusiast are still, 10 years in, talking about how he's "learning" and how "THIS time, if it doesn't work out"... does show that his biggest ability in the role is in spin and excuse-making that, amazingly, keeps working on some... maestro indeed.
 
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jaffy27

From Russia wth Pain
Nov 18, 2007
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Context..I wonder when people will ever learn to apply it.
When Aho and Trocheck is your two top centers, moving KK to wing made sense.
When you have Danault is in the top two, then no.
So play the vets whom one will become a UFA over a young center who you just paid 6.1m$ for and lost a 1st and 3rd round draft pick for.....sure b'y.

Aho, I'm good with, even Staal, but it sure looks to me like Carolina has no plan here, the vision was tunnel with Bergevin in the middle of it, they lost Hamilton, a premiere D, but could've retained him with an extra 2m$ a year. Instead, they went after KK, a player that plays a position of strength for them, and overpaid him, and will for years to come, and lost draft picks in a super draft.

Poor decisions through and through
 

jaffy27

From Russia wth Pain
Nov 18, 2007
25,564
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Orleans
Extrapolation and projection, it's what they're paid to do.
Habs projected him to NOT be a 6.1m$ player after being by his side for 3yrs......Carolina projects him to be one with underwhelming results and amateur scouts notes from 3 yrs ago.....wonder how that will turn out.
 

Miller Time

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Sep 16, 2004
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Context..I wonder when people will ever learn to apply it.
When Aho and Trocheck is your two top centers, moving KK to wing made sense.
When you have Danault is in the top two, then no.

harder to grasp for some apparently...
 
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