News Article: Marc-Andre Fleury: Why the Penguins Should Bench Him

[Crafton]

In 4 games this season, all of which were wins, he has a 1.25 GAA and a 0.954 SV%. That's top notch in the league.

In his 2 losses, he has a 4.5 GAA and a 0.780 SV%.

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow weighs in:

There was a little girl,
Who had a little curl,
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good,
She was very good indeed,
But when she was bad she was horrid.

 

[mpp9]

The Montreal series was the worst goaltending performance I've ever seen. Philly was bad, but everything was bad there. Montreal, the defense wasn't terrible...Fleury just gave up back breaker after back breaker.

The thing with Fleury is people lump his stats all into one, but if you look at them from a game to game basis, I think it's more telling.

In 4 games this season, all of which were wins, he has a 1.25 GAA and a 0.954 SV%. That's top notch in the league.

In his 2 losses, he has a 4.5 GAA and a 0.780 SV%.

Fleury blew game 3 against Philly for us. We had a chance to get back in that series and he lets up a softy after we take a lead.

He's bailed on us more than once in the postseason. If he does it again, I don't see how we can justify his contract with us longterm.

 

[Sideline]

The Montreal series was the worst goaltending performance I've ever seen. Philly was bad, but everything was bad there. Montreal, the defense wasn't terrible...Fleury just gave up back breaker after back breaker.

The thing with Fleury is people lump his stats all into one, but if you look at them from a game to game basis, I think it's more telling.

In 4 games this season, all of which were wins, he has a 1.25 GAA and a 0.954 SV%. That's top notch in the league.

In his 2 losses, he has a 4.5 GAA and a 0.780 SV%.

If I had access to better data I would love to do figure out the game to game standard deviation in save percentage among starting goalies in the NHL. I strongly suspect Fleury would have one of the highest (worst) levels of variation.

Honestly though, he also sucked in the Tampa series - GAA above 2.50 and SV% below .900. And in the '10 playoffs, he had a 2.78 GAA and his SV% was .891.

Ever since the Cup win, he's been about the furthest thing from a "money goalie" as a keeper can be. If he craps out this year, I'm done. He's got a fantastic guy to platoon with now too, so there's not a single excuse why he can't perform to his salary.

Tampa was bad, but I'm willing to write some stuff off as a guy not being on his game all the time. Philly and Montreal were historically bad; like all time no goalie has ever been worse in a playoff series bad.

 

[JTG]

Henry Wadsworth Longfellow weighs in:

There was a little girl,
Who had a little curl,
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good,
She was very good indeed,
But when she was bad she was horrid.

pretty much

 

[JTG]

If I had access to better data I would love to do figure out the game to game standard deviation in save percentage among starting goalies in the NHL. I strongly suspect Fleury would have one of the highest (worst) levels of variation.

agreed

 

[Griffin6612]

I still believe that Fluery isnt conditioned as well as other goalies, and the way we play wears him out too much physically and mentally.


This short season (and having a good backup) will inform us all alot. If he blows this year then im totally wrong with him playing too much.

 

[TheSniper26]

The Montreal series was the worst goaltending performance I've ever seen. Philly was bad, but everything was bad there. Montreal, the defense wasn't terrible...Fleury just gave up back breaker after back breaker.

The thing with Fleury is people lump his stats all into one, but if you look at them from a game to game basis, I think it's more telling.

In 4 games this season, all of which were wins, he has a 1.25 GAA and a 0.954 SV%. That's top notch in the league.

In his 2 losses, he has a 4.5 GAA and a 0.780 SV%.

So if we take out all the games he's bad in and leave just the ones he's good in, he'll be elite!

No I get your point though. He accumulates a lot of his poor numbers in a smaller number of really bad games. Even if that's true(which I don't know if it is outside of this season), he seems to have a knack for bringing out the really bad games at the worst times. I'd rather he be steadily mediocre from beginning to end than fantastic one night and costing us the game the next. I think it's easier to play around a constant, even if it's constantly average.

 

[Smoke]

how much does vokoun make? 2 million i think?

so the pens are spending 7 million or so in salary cap space on their goaltending duo.

i honestly dont know, how does that compare to other goalie tandems in the league? i would imagine thats rather high. anyone know?

http://www.capgeek.com/payrolls/

Vancouver 9 million
Minnesota 8 million
NYR 8 million

Just a few examples. The range is from 2-9 million.

 

[TheSniper26]

http://www.capgeek.com/payrolls/

Vancouver 9 million
Minnesota 8 million
NYR 8 million

Just a few examples. The range is from 2-9 million.

I think there are a few others that hover around the 7 million mark, but yeah, the Pens are on the high end of the league.

 

[Al Smith]

i think this is a valid view. he was 10th for Games Started and 8th for Games Played last year. if Johnson wasn't awful he'd probably have been 10th for GP as well. i think it's a legitimate expectation that he should be able withstand that amount of workload without imploding (he's 28 and probably the most athletically gifted netminder in the league). Quick, Rinne and Niemi all played more games in the regular season and had adequate to excellent playoffs.

Perhaps, but those guys may just be physically and/or genetically better equipped to play more. Or perhaps Fleury just isn't in shape. For whatever reason, though, he seemed to tire at the end of the season. In addition, Fleury's average game probably gives much more of a workout than at least Quick and Rinne. I'm not a Fleury lover, but I seriously doubt Vokoun, at this point of his career, would be better as a #1 than Fleury.

Jeezus, slew-foot Subban just scored.

 

[#66]

Does anyone know the goalie coach he's working with this season?

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

Come on, this is getting silly. You think, after Fleury's awful series against the Flyers, the Pens decided to go out and get a potential starter because they were worried about their dime-a-dozen backup Brent Johnson?

This. Management didn't just bring in a great backup in Vokoun, they brought in a perennially elite starter. And to the guy who said Vokoun played behind great defensive teams, that was certainly not the case in Florida where the bulk of his success has been attained.

 

[edog37]

an article clearly written for effect. Yes, MAF is a flake, yes, he does have his moments. But who else did you want in there Game 7 in Detroit staring down Lidstrom in the final second? Would you want that sap Luongo who was bailed out by Sid in the '10 Gold Medal game after giving up a last minute goal? Would you want Mr. Regular Season Henrik Lundqvist who has never been beyond the second round? Or was the right guy in net during that moment? It's funny, I heard the same nonsense when Barrasso was brought in, how he couldn't win the big one, yet still backstopped us to two Cups. Bringing in Vokoun was a great move by Shero, but I'm not ready to bench the franchise's all time winningest goalie just yet....

 

[Malkinstheman]

an article clearly written for effect. Yes, MAF is a flake, yes, he does have his moments. But who else did you want in there Game 7 in Detroit staring down Lidstrom in the final second? Would you want that sap Luongo who was bailed out by Sid in the '10 Gold Medal game after giving up a last minute goal? Would you want Mr. Regular Season Henrik Lundqvist who has never been beyond the second round? Or was the right guy in net during that moment? It's funny, I heard the same nonsense when Barrasso was brought in, how he couldn't win the big one, yet still backstopped us to two Cups. Bringing in Vokoun was a great move by Shero, but I'm not ready to bench the franchise's all time winningest goalie just yet....

I dont want to drop fleury but how long are we going to ride his cup sucess? Sure he made great saves during the cup runs, with were more than 4 years ago[/B]I think its about time we start looking at what he will do for us in the future. Oh and did you even watch the playoffs last year? Lundqvist kept the rags in EVERY single game, they could have taken the cup but didnt have enough secondary scoring

 

[PensFanSince1989]

This. Management didn't just bring in a great backup in Vokoun, they brought in a perennially elite starter. And to the guy who said Vokoun played behind great defensive teams, that was certainly not the case in Florida where the bulk of his success has been attained.

Florida is and has always been a defence first team. Their problems is they forwent their offense for it. They allowed a ton of shots from the outside, but boxed out rebound chances and tried to force play to the perimeter. Very similar to what Montreal also did last year.

And as far as the whole Pens management were worried about fleury so they went after Vokoun angle many of you are trying to play, wasn't it Vokoun that contacted Pittsburgh, similar to how he contacted Washington? Penguins staff would be stupid to not sign him for the salary he was asking for. Vokoun obviously wants a shot at the cup, and is willing to play for cheap and even play the backup role.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

who is this Billy Nauman? never heard of him.

It sounds like he posts on HF.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Was surprised to see this type of article in the media. Almost certainly a gimmick to get attention. Seems to be the big "social marketing" trick these days: "say something contentious to get followers / drive traffic". Welcome to Reality TV culture. FUBAR. I've been as disappointed as anyone in Fleury and no, he's not one of the 3-4 elite goalies in this league (because there are only 3 or 4) but he's still a skilled goalie so I'm not down with the armchair goalie coaching. Until someone like Darren Pang says something like that, I'm not giving it much credence.

Meantime you kids behave yourselves. Don't make it personal.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Fleury has only had a meltdown once: Against Philadelphia - and he wasn't getting much help. Tampa Bay wasn't his fault, it was the poor PP (1 for 35). Montreal was a lack of secondary scoring (Geno's line was a no-show). You can quote stats all you want, but you need to get your head out of the box scores and out of the fantasy leagues and watch the game (I know, only lame people watch the games ).

With some of you, you always gotta blame the most visible guy. In football, it's the QB. In hockey, it's the goalie. Forget how often the WRs drop catchable balls! It's the QB's fault! Forget all the turnovers in the defensive zone, it's all the goalie's fault! Now when the backup is in, he gets a pass. Dixon blows it in OT in Baltimore - "leave him alone! He played well!" Vokoun lets in that goal in Washington off the glass when it almost happened earlier in the game "he did the right thing by going back! It's what the coaches want the goalie to do!" My god, if Fleury let that one in the pitchforks would be out.

The truth of the matter is, no matter how badly you want to run him out of town, the team and the players have confidence in him, confidence that is well-justified. He's the number one goalie, and Shero is going to find a way to resign him (and no, not for less money).

The bolded is pretty key here.

When I saw that goal I knew that Vok would get a free pass as it was a bad bounce. However, I've seen multiple posters go on tirades when MAF lets in similar goals.

It's at the point where everyone's made up their mind and will go out of their way to put the guy down.

 

[TheSniper26]

The bolded is pretty key here.

When I saw that goal I knew that Vok would get a free pass as it was a bad bounce. However, I've seen multiple posters go on tirades when MAF lets in similar goals.

It's at the point where everyone's made up their mind and will go out of their way to put the guy down.

I agree, but let's not pretend it doesn't go both ways. There are also many who will go out of their way to make excuses for the guy and ignore actual facts. Unfortunately, most don't want to acknowledge the middle ground which is that he's an average, capable NHL starting goalie. It's either "He's elite!" or "He's terrible!". Neither is really true.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

Guy is a hack with an axe to grind on Fleury. He wonders on his blog if Fleury and Martin would face the buy out axe in the off season.

I wrote about the lack of respect for Fleury about three years ago comparing him to Donovan McNabb. It still holds up today.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I agree, but let's not pretend it doesn't go both ways. There are also many who will go out of their way to make excuses for the guy and ignore actual facts. Unfortunately, most don't want to acknowledge the middle ground which is that he's an average, capable NHL starting goalie. It's either "He's elite!" or "He's terrible!". Neither is really true.

When you get the same handful ppl calling out MAF after almost every goal he lets up, regardless of whether or not it was his fault, it get's pretty old for those of us who haven't decided that MAF is the root of all the Pens' problems.

I guess if you want to see explain how some goals aren't his fault as, "going out of their way to make excuses for the guy and ignore actual facts" then that on you.

Maybe we should start another "MAF +/-" thread??

 

[TheSniper26]

When you get the same handful ppl calling out MAF after almost every goal he lets up, regardless of whether or not it was his fault, it get's pretty old for those of us who haven't decided that MAF is the root of all the Pens' problems.

I guess if you want to see explain how some goals aren't his fault as, "going out of their way to make excuses for the guy and ignore actual facts" then that on you.

Maybe we should start another "MAF +/-" thread??

Yeah, I've seen some of your "explanations". You'll go back as far as you have to to find some mistake that another guy made and somehow link it to the goal that was scored a minute later. "Martin failed to clear the puck earlier in the shift! That goal is on him!". In your world, the goalie(or maybe just Fleury) pretty much isn't responsible for anything as long as a mistake was made by someone else in the previous two minutes.

The funny thing is, the point of my post was that both sides are too extreme in their judgement of Fleury. Your response? To remind me that the only ones being unreasonable are the people who disagree with you. Good stuff.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yes, because this season clearly we've had nothing but trouble from our goaltending.

Oh wait, we haven't? Well, trololololo. Well played internet.

 

[Pancakes]

I'm of the belief that Vokoun is the better goalie but that Fleury won't ever lose his job because of his weighty salary.

That said, they're both playing well this season. No reason to bench either.

 

[NastyNick]

Vokoun will start game 2.


This article is so offensive because it takes the simple facts in front of us all. People love Fleury because he is the everyman goalie. Not perfect, not really that good, but he wins. It doesn't matter if its SId or Geno getting the hat trick on that particular night, people associate with the mediocre goalie who triumphs in the face of his subpar ability. Just read the comments on that article and you'll see. Imaginary defensive breakdowns and Fleury "forced" to make miracle saves. At least these people aren't trying to hide the fact he lets a lot of pucks in the net. They are a bit delusional when it comes to understand goaltending in the NHL though.

The management staff finally "got it" this offseason. Thats why we have Vokoun. And he will be in net starting game 2.