News Article: Marc-Andre Fleury: Why the Penguins Should Bench Him

[Shockmaster]

So is Fleury right now...

When the team is playing good hockey, the goaltender will benefit.

This. Look at the Rangers - they've been up and down so far and Lundqvist hasn't been able to bail them out during the bad games. Does that mean Lundqvist is no longer good? Hell, even the Devils have put on some stinkers and left Brodeur out to dry.

Sure, the goalie needs to make big saves (which MAF has done over his career), but the team in front of the goalie also has to keep their heads out of their ***** and manage the puck well.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

The first one, yeah, that was on him. But he was looking to buy a call and, let's be honest, that's not something he does with regularity so I'll give him a pass on it. The second goal was simply one of the best shooters of all time having entirely too much time and space. I'm often critical of Fleury, but I had no problems with his game last night. If he plays at that level in the postseason, the Pens will be fine. That's all I care about.

I know right. Goalies throw their helmets off all the time to buy calls. It's not like he caught a stick under the chin or anything. That one is all on him.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

To be clear for my part:

1) I am very disappoint in Fleury's play at the end of last year, but willing to condede the possibility that he's not the type of goalie who can take 65 starts a season and do well... that he might be more consistent if he plays only 50 games or slightly more a year. Thus happy Vokoun is here and hope that he might prove the case that Flower just needs more rest every season to be at his best come playoff time.

2) I am under no delusions whatever that Fleury is an "elite" goalie (he's not close to being one, for any fan who understands the stats). I don't expect that from him and I don't fault him for it when he doesn't deliver it. He made some huge saves in our Cup run and he's a very likable guy so I give him his propers there and hope he wins another one for us with some clutch saves. I like Flower, period. But he's not an elite goalie, regardless of where he was drafted. Nor should he be untouchable in the trade deadline sense.

Put another way, if Flower had been drafted 35th, and had done exactly the same things up till now, no one would even be mentioning the word "elite" or arguing about it, because the expectation that comes with the 1st pick, disappears. He is a good goalie who was picked earlier than he should've been by a rebuilding team who badly needed a new goalie. Simple as that.

3) I say he's still our #1 unless and until he gives the job away over the next several weeks. But I'm not above saying if Flower doesn't perform often enough, and Vokoun does, Vokoun should be our #1 going into the payoffs, period. He has to earn it every year, not just the Cup year.

AH...the stats argument again. Here is why the "stats" argument is not totally accurate. We all pretty much agree that Corey Perry is an elite winger. Now apply the "stats" argument that you use for goalies, and it proves all of us wrong. Corey Perry can't be elite because last year 38 wingers had better stats than Perry, including Kunitz, Radim Vrbata, Tomas Fleicshmann, and a bunch of others we consider no where near elite. So as you can see, strictly using this very flawed methodology, Corey Perry is far from elite.

Obviously Perry is elite. Fleury is not a stats goalie, but name on the cup, 2 finals appearances, #1 overall pick, NHL All-Star, member of Canadian Olympic team....yeah, that's pretty elite.

 

[TheSniper26]

I know right. Goalies throw their helmets off all the time to buy calls. It's not like he caught a stick under the chin or anything. That one is all on him.

His helmet flew off because he flailed his head back like Oswald got him from the book depository. If you can watch that play and not admit that he embellished, then your love of Fleury has gone off the deep end.

It's telling that you were responding to a post that was actually defending Fleury and somehow still taking issue with it. It's never enough until we all just say "He's elite! Top 5 goalie in the league! He always bails out the Pens night after night!".

 

[Ogelthorpe]

meloche has been his only goalie coach. time for a new one

Not totally true. He also worked with Shayne Clifford for a while....That is where the making a high glove save on your knees comes from.

 

[Crafton]

His helmet flew off because he flailed his head back like Oswald got him from the book depository. If you can watch that play and not admit that he embellished, then your love of Fleury has gone off the deep end.

It's telling that you were responding to a post that was actually defending Fleury and somehow still taking issue with it. It's never enough until we all just say "He's elite! Top 5 goalie in the league! He always bails out the Pens night after night!".

 

[Shady Machine]

AH...the stats argument again. Here is why the "stats" argument is not totally accurate. We all pretty much agree that Corey Perry is an elite winger. Now apply the "stats" argument that you use for goalies, and it proves all of us wrong. Corey Perry can't be elite because last year 38 wingers had better stats than Perry, including Kunitz, Radim Vrbata, Tomas Fleicshmann, and a bunch of others we consider no where near elite. So as you can see, strictly using this very flawed methodology, Corey Perry is far from elite.

Obviously Perry is elite. Fleury is not a stats goalie, but name on the cup, 2 finals appearances, #1 overall pick, NHL All-Star, member of Canadian Olympic team....yeah, that's pretty elite.

This argument is asinine considering Perry won the Rocket and Hart trophy in his career and also has a history of producing at a high statistical level. Point being, he has one down year and has stats to back up his elite status. Fleury has an entire career of mediocre stats. I'm not sure how you can't see the difference between the two examples.

Also, being the 3rd string goaltender on an Olympic team doesn't make you elite. Neither does being drafted first overall as an 18 year old.

 

[Marcus Halberstram*]

Here's the thing with Fleury, he's a very likebale guy that's easy to root for, even if you don't like him. The back-to-back Finals, the Stanley Cup, THE last second Stanley Cup winning save, and his overrall acrobatic style that leads to many highlight reel saves has bought him lots of rope amongst Pens fans.

Having said all that, he is a player that still displays the same weaknesses from year one to now. Last year against Philly was an unmitigated disaster of epic proportions. While it's not ALL on him obviously, I honestly think it was the perfect opportunity for him to be THE stabilizing influence for the team (like he did when Sid and Geno missed regular season games to injury), and get us through a very win-able series. But he fell apart in grand fashion and that was that.

After the Stanley Cup, I felt he was ready to breakthrough and become that consistent top-end goalie, but again, for all the awesome physical tools he has, he's got to be one of the most mentally weak athletes I have ever seen. It's not even just about the stats. It's that he just as likely to make a big save when you need it, as he is to give up a weak goal at a bad time. The reason he bears the brunt of sooo much criticism is beacuse he's paid like a top-tier goalie, and more often than not, he fails to earn his pay consistently. At 2-3 million you can accept these flaws, but in a cap world where we have more than a handful of guys earning BIG pay, the Fleury contract at 5 is a bit of an albatross. With Geno and Letang coming up soon, I think this year and next will go a long ways towards detemining whether Shero wants to re-sign Fleury to the same deal, a little less, or just cuts ties and maybe uses the Detroit approach with respect to contracts and what they're willing to spend on a starting goalie.

I think bringing in Vokoun as many have said was a great and very underrated move. He provides the team with a solid plan B if Fleury craps the bed, but hopefully, and more importantly, pushes Fleury to be better and give us the goaltending we need to compete for the big prize come playoff time. For me, at this point in time, if Fleury plays great and steals a game, or if he's awful and costs us a game, I've accepted that that's just the way it is. Just my two cents.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

This argument is asinine considering Perry won the Rocket and Hart trophy in his career and also has a history of producing at a high statistical level. Point being, he has one down year and has stats to back up his elite status. Fleury has an entire career of mediocre stats. I'm not sure how you can't see the difference between the two examples.

Also, being the 3rd string goaltender on an Olympic team doesn't make you elite. Neither does being drafted first overall as an 18 year old.

First off the stats argument is really dumb was the point. PS for all you stat freaks, loook at Fleury's stats under Therrien's D-first system.....yeah, I know, a little better right.

Talk to any Canadian goalie, and ask them if being elected to their Olympic team makes someone Elite. He wasn't the 3rd String goalie for Norway, or Germany, he was 3rd behind quite possibly the best goalie to ever play the game, and a guy playing on his home ice. With as many options as Canada has to choose from, making that team absolutely puts you in the elite category.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

"He hasn't been all that terrible since the NYI debacle"

He's actually been fantastic since the NYI debacle. He's actually been playing outstanding hockey all year aside from two piss poor games.

And I have never understood the shutout thing. I mean, in the realm of things, it's really not that important. He wins games, and he has backstopped this team to a ton of wins.

Every single goalie let's a soft goal in here or there. People act like Fleury is the only starting goaltender who does it. I don't think the frequency he let's a soft one in is any more frequent than some of the other top goaltenders do. People here just like making a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to MAF.

He's actually only had 1 piss poor game. The Toronto game, while unfriendly to his stats, was not a poor game from him.

He's played extremely well this season. He had one poor game in which he played down to the level of the rest of the team (islanders loss).

But Fleury will always have his haters and while some criticisms of him are deserved, so much of the venom that is spewed of him is nothing but scapegoat B.S.

I mean, really, we have people in here complaining about his game last night? Really?

 

[vikingGoalie]

[/B]

Not totally true. He also worked with Shayne Clifford for a while....That is where the making a high glove save on your knees comes from.

i stand corrected, thx. Meloche has been the full time penguins goalie coach for 7 years now I believe.

I still stand by though that a different voice in his ear could make a difference. It's not even that Meloche is necessarily a bad goalie coach. Just someone different to get Fleury to examine his game some.

Fleury was overall pretty solid against the caps, perhaps he embellished the flop, but we don't know how hard that stick to the belly from orpik was either. I am hoping that Flower can finally get it together, but I have my doubts.

To those with the stats arguments. Whole heartedly agree, stats lie. You have to watch the game to really make an assessment. That said end of this season we will have a good metric with those stats across the season between Vokoun and Fleury. You can't discount a comparison between the two once we have a big enough sample size.

 

[Shady Machine]

First off the stats argument is really dumb was the point. PS for all you stat freaks, loook at Fleury's stats under Therrien's D-first system.....yeah, I know, a little better right.

Talk to any Canadian goalie, and ask them if being elected to their Olympic team makes someone Elite. He wasn't the 3rd String goalie for Norway, or Germany, he was 3rd behind quite possibly the best goalie to ever play the game, and a guy playing on his home ice. With as many options as Canada has to choose from, making that team absolutely puts you in the elite category.

No the point was that your example wasn't even remotely close to the situation with Fleury. The "stats lie" angle was what you were going for and using a Rocket Richard winner as your comparable makes your argument lose credibility.

Fleury's stats were not that much better under Therrien nor has he produced much better than his backups over his career (and we know those backups are nothing to get excited about).

As for the Olympics, you are right that even making the Canadian Olympic team is a big deal. I guess it just depends on your definition of "elite". To me, an elite goaltender is one that is top 5 in the league. Fleury certainly is not in that category. Hence, he is not elite.

 

[Shady Machine]

He's actually only had 1 piss poor game. The Toronto game, while unfriendly to his stats, was not a poor game from him.

He's played extremely well this season. He had one poor game in which he played down to the level of the rest of the team (islanders loss).

But Fleury will always have his haters and while some criticisms of him are deserved, so much of the venom that is spewed of him is nothing but scapegoat B.S.

I mean, really, we have people in here complaining about his game last night? Really?

You are totally right. Fleury has been solid this season outside of the Isles game. I'm very pleased with our goaltending situation at the moment.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

No the point was that your example wasn't even remotely close to the situation with Fleury. The "stats lie" angle was what you were going for and using a Rocket Richard winner as your comparable makes your argument lose credibility.

Fleury's stats were not that much better under Therrien nor has he produced much better than his backups over his career (and we know those backups are nothing to get excited about).

As for the Olympics, you are right that even making the Canadian Olympic team is a big deal. I guess it just depends on your definition of "elite". To me, an elite goaltender is one that is top 5 in the league. Fleury certainly is not in that category. Hence, he is not elite.

By YOUR definition he has to be top 5 in the league. How are you determining the top 5? Once again, is it based on stats? How long does a goalie need to post these stats? Is it year to year or over a long period of time? Does he need to win Championships?

The point is, there is either only 1 or 2 true Elite goalies, or 7-8 elite depending on your view point. If you asked for a top 5 list from NHL Scouts, GM's and coaches, you would probably get only 1 name that would be on everyone's list (Lundqvist). Then you would get probably 7 more names like Anderson, Renne, Fleury, Miller, Luongo, Quick, Ward.

So basically, based on the above example, you can only say that Lundqvist is the only true elite goalie, or you can say that there are 7, 8, maybe even 10 elite goalies. There really isn't a consensus top 5 goalies in the league!

 

[TheSniper26]

AH...the stats argument again. Here is why the "stats" argument is not totally accurate. We all pretty much agree that Corey Perry is an elite winger. Now apply the "stats" argument that you use for goalies, and it proves all of us wrong. Corey Perry can't be elite because last year 38 wingers had better stats than Perry, including Kunitz, Radim Vrbata, Tomas Fleicshmann, and a bunch of others we consider no where near elite. So as you can see, strictly using this very flawed methodology, Corey Perry is far from elite.

Obviously Perry is elite. Fleury is not a stats goalie, but name on the cup, 2 finals appearances, #1 overall pick, NHL All-Star, member of Canadian Olympic team....yeah, that's pretty elite.

Who are the other elite goalies that aren't "stats goalies"? Surely if a guy can be elite without having the stats to back it up, there must be others like this besides Fleury right? Or is it more likely that a fan base is making excuses because they don't want to admit their 1st overall pick didn't quite pan out the way they hoped?

The last 5 Vezina winners' numbers:
.930
.928
.929
.933
.920

Fleury has been up in that range one time in his career and it was the year he only played 35 games. People can dismiss stats all they want, but clearly they mean something because the goalies who are actually awarded for being elite all have the numbers to show for it at the end of the year. And if you want to go by career numbers, Fleury is currently 21st among active goalies in save%. So are we now saying that the 20 guys ahead of him have all had the luxury of playing on defensively dominant teams their whole career?

As for Fleury having better numbers under Therrien's D-first system... not really. A .911 save% over that time. Not bad, but not great either. More proof that Fleury's struggles go back a lot further than the defensive issues of the last couple of seasons. These numbers don't point to Fleury being a bad goalie, simply an average NHL starter. There's nothing wrong with that, but his fans seem to get offended at the notion that not everyone thinks he's elite.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Who are the other elite goalies that aren't "stats goalies"? Surely if a guy can be elite without having the stats to back it up, there must be others like this besides Fleury right? Or is it more likely that a fan base is making excuses because they don't want to admit their 1st overall pick didn't quite pan out the way they hoped?

The last 5 Vezina winners' numbers:
.930
.928
.929
.933
.920

Fleury has been up in that range one time in his career and it was the year he only played 35 games. People can dismiss stats all they want, but clearly they mean something because the goalies who are actually awarded for being elite all have the numbers to show for it at the end of the year. And if you want to go by career numbers, Fleury is currently 21st among active goalies in save%. So are we now saying that the 20 guys ahead of him have all had the luxury of playing on defensively dominant teams their whole career?

As for Fleury having better numbers under Therrien's D-first system... not really. A .911 save% over that time. Not bad, but not great either. More proof that Fleury's struggles go back a lot further than the defensive issues of the last couple of seasons. These numbers don't point to Fleury being a bad goalie, simply an average NHL starter. There's nothing wrong with that, but his fans seem to get offended at the notion that not everyone thinks he's elite.

Your right there are others. Quick, Ward, and Price all are not big "stats" goalies, but are all in the conversation as well. So as you see, it's not a Fleury thing, it's an ability to look beyond printed numbers. This is hockey, not accounting....numbers aren't everything.

 

[Sivek]

Your right there are others. Quick, Ward, and Price all are not big "stats" goalies, but are all in the conversation as well. So as you see, it's not a Fleury thing, it's an ability to look beyond printed numbers. This is hockey, not accounting....numbers aren't everything.

Saying Quick, Price and Ward are not stats goalies and to compare their lot with MAF doesn't make much sense. Price's career numbers are much better than MAF's with similar playoff numbers. Quick career numbers and playoff numbers are both much better than MAF's. Ward's regular season stats are similar to MAF's but his playoff stats are much better.

There's a reason why the Vezina finalists/tournament honors/the considered best goalies in the league/etc are always goalies with great stats and it's not because there are stat goalies and non-stat goalies. It's because guys that regulatory stop a higher percentage of shots are better than guys that regularly stop a lower percentage of shots.

For anyone deriding goalie stats, I have a question. What will it say about MAF's past and current performance if Vokoun, long considered a "stats goalie", post significantly better numbers than MAF this year while playing on the same team, with the same defense, with a similar amount of games? Does this mean that Vokoun is a better goalie? Does this mean that goalie stats may actually mean something since Vokoun will have played for 4 different NHL teams in his career and has been good in different circumstances, that maybe goalies have more of an effect on their overall numbers than people want to believe? That a goalie's ability to stop shots might have a bit more with their own skill level than the team in front of them?

 

[TheSniper26]

Your right there are others. Quick, Ward, and Price all are not big "stats" goalies, but are all in the conversation as well. So as you see, it's not a Fleury thing, it's an ability to look beyond printed numbers. This is hockey, not accounting....numbers aren't everything.

Really? Price and Quick are 7th and 8th among active goalies.

And you're right, numbers aren't everything. I don't think anyone is saying they are. But to dismiss them completely because they don't match up with your opinion is sticking your head in the sand. The stats are the only aspect of this discussion that aren't subject to bias. I'd say they hold some value.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

His helmet flew off because he flailed his head back like Oswald got him from the book depository. If you can watch that play and not admit that he embellished, then your love of Fleury has gone off the deep end.

It's telling that you were responding to a post that was actually defending Fleury and somehow still taking issue with it. It's never enough until we all just say "He's elite! Top 5 goalie in the league! He always bails out the Pens night after night!".

That's BS and you know it, his helmet fell off because he got Oprik's stick in the neck/chin area.

Have you even been hit with a stick there? If so, I'm sure you didn't flail your head back and continued to play as if nothing happened.

 

[TheSniper26]

That's BS and you know it, his helmet fell off because he got Oprik's stick in the neck/chin area.

Have you even been hit with a stick there? If so, I'm sure you didn't flail your head back and continued to play as if nothing happened.

I've played since I was a little kid all the way up through college and continue to play regularly all the time. So yes, I've taken some high sticks. It hurts. And pretty much every guy flails their head back... mostly because they're trying to buy a call and let the refs know it happened. Besides, Fleury didn't just flail his head back. He flopped backwards onto the ice so violently that his mask flew off. Even Steigerwald, the biggest homer on the planet, admitted he was looking to buy a call. The contact was real, his reaction was embellished. My original post was actually giving him a pass for it because every guy embellishes. It's part of the game.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Saying Quick, Price and Ward are not stats goalies and to compare their lot with MAF doesn't make much sense. Price's career numbers are much better than MAF's with similar playoff numbers. Quick career numbers and playoff numbers are both much better than MAF's. Ward's regular season stats are similar to MAF's but his playoff stats are much better.

There's a reason why the Vezina finalists/tournament honors/the considered best goalies in the league/etc are always goalies with great stats and it's not because there are stat goalies and non-stat goalies. It's because guys that regulatory stop a higher percentage of shots are better than guys that regularly stop a lower percentage of shots.

For anyone deriding goalie stats, I have a question. What will it say about MAF's past and current performance if Vokoun, long considered a "stats goalie", post significantly better numbers than MAF this year while playing on the same team, with the same defense, with a similar amount of games? Does this mean that Vokoun is a better goalie? Does this mean that goalie stats may actually mean something since Vokoun will have played for 4 different NHL teams in his career and has been good in different circumstances, that maybe goalies have more of an effect on their overall numbers than people want to believe? That a goalie's ability to stop shots might have a bit more with their own skill level than the team in front of them?

Yes the Vezina trophy goes to stats. Once again, try to keep up, best stats do not always mean best goalie. Think of it this way, this may help you. The Vezina is like the Heisman Trophy- It goes to a guy with great stats, but not always the best player. That is why 99% of the time the Heisman trophy winner isn't the first overall pick.

I can tell you as someone who has played the position my entire life through college, and has been coaching the position for years as well, when you analyze a goalies performance as a coach, stats mean very little.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Saying Quick, Price and Ward are not stats goalies and to compare their lot with MAF doesn't make much sense. Price's career numbers are much better than MAF's with similar playoff numbers. Quick career numbers and playoff numbers are both much better than MAF's. Ward's regular season stats are similar to MAF's but his playoff stats are much better.

There's a reason why the Vezina finalists/tournament honors/the considered best goalies in the league/etc are always goalies with great stats and it's not because there are stat goalies and non-stat goalies. It's because guys that regulatory stop a higher percentage of shots are better than guys that regularly stop a lower percentage of shots.

For anyone deriding goalie stats, I have a question. What will it say about MAF's past and current performance if Vokoun, long considered a "stats goalie", post significantly better numbers than MAF this year while playing on the same team, with the same defense, with a similar amount of games? Does this mean that Vokoun is a better goalie? Does this mean that goalie stats may actually mean something since Vokoun will have played for 4 different NHL teams in his career and has been good in different circumstances, that maybe goalies have more of an effect on their overall numbers than people want to believe? That a goalie's ability to stop shots might have a bit more with their own skill level than the team in front of them?

Way better numbers career? seriously? Price and Quick have career .916 save% and Ward's is .910 compared to Fleury's .909% career......you think those are significantly better numbers??? seriously, put down the bottle man!

Lets also remember that Flowers numbers include 2 seasons as a teenager, something neither Price nor Quick did, not to mention that those 2 seasons the Pens were by far the WORST team in the league.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Really? Price and Quick are 7th and 8th among active goalies.

And you're right, numbers aren't everything. I don't think anyone is saying they are. But to dismiss them completely because they don't match up with your opinion is sticking your head in the sand. The stats are the only aspect of this discussion that aren't subject to bias. I'd say they hold some value.

OK. Let's say your life depends on the outcome of a hockey game, and you get to choose your team's goalie. Your choices are Ilya Bryzgalov, Devan Dubnyk, Craig Anderson, or Henrik Lundqvist....Who do you choose?

 

[Ogelthorpe]

Saying Quick, Price and Ward are not stats goalies and to compare their lot with MAF doesn't make much sense. Price's career numbers are much better than MAF's with similar playoff numbers. Quick career numbers and playoff numbers are both much better than MAF's. Ward's regular season stats are similar to MAF's but his playoff stats are much better.

There's a reason why the Vezina finalists/tournament honors/the considered best goalies in the league/etc are always goalies with great stats and it's not because there are stat goalies and non-stat goalies. It's because guys that regulatory stop a higher percentage of shots are better than guys that regularly stop a lower percentage of shots.

For anyone deriding goalie stats, I have a question. What will it say about MAF's past and current performance if Vokoun, long considered a "stats goalie", post significantly better numbers than MAF this year while playing on the same team, with the same defense, with a similar amount of games? Does this mean that Vokoun is a better goalie? Does this mean that goalie stats may actually mean something since Vokoun will have played for 4 different NHL teams in his career and has been good in different circumstances, that maybe goalies have more of an effect on their overall numbers than people want to believe? That a goalie's ability to stop shots might have a bit more with their own skill level than the team in front of them?

So far this year, if you take out the NYI game that everyone agrees was a complete team meltdown, stats would look like this - Fleury .924% in 6 games and Vokoun .927% in 5 games. pretty comparable stats. And yes Vokoun has always had great stats, as he has always been a top tier goalie IMO. I am really happy about both of our goalies.

 

[TheSniper26]

Way better numbers career? seriously? Price and Quick have career .916 save% and Ward's is .910 compared to Fleury's .909% career......you think those are significantly better numbers??? seriously, put down the bottle man!

Lets also remember that Flowers numbers include 2 seasons as a teenager, something neither Price nor Quick did, not to mention that those 2 seasons the Pens were by far the WORST team in the league.

Even if you chop off his first two seasons and only focus on the Therrien "D-first" years, his save % is still only .911. So pretty much right on pace with his career numbers.

Also, if you factor in the playoffs, Fleury's numbers drop further while guys like Ward and Quick see their numbers improve. So what's the excuse? Fleury's defense magically gets worse in the playoffs every year and the other goalies' defenses get better? It's amazing how Fleury is so sheltered from criticism but it's perfectly fine throw the entire team under the bus to absolve him any time his numbers are awful.