News Article: Marc-Andre Fleury: Why the Penguins Should Bench Him

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Fleury will certainly be benched. For tomorrow's game.

 

[Shockmaster]

Consistently stop pucks at a higher rate than Fleury while playing on a weaker team?

I'll now await your predictable "STAT WATCHER!! WATCH THE GAMES!!!" response.

Too bad he's never helped his team make any noise in the playoffs.

I bet Fleury would put up good stats in Montreal too considering they just form walls around their goalie. I wonder how Price would do playing for the Penguins when they go firewagon and give up multiple odd-man rushes.

I know, that's not on a stat sheet so you wouldn't understand.

And you picked a really bad night to give Price any praise. Holding him to the same standard as Fleury - HE SUCKS! HABS SHOULD TRADE FOR WINGARZ!

 

[TheSniper26]

Too bad he's never helped his team make any noise in the playoffs.

I bet Fleury would put up good stats in Montreal too considering they just form walls around their goalie. I wonder how Price would do playing for the Penguins when they go firewagon and give up multiple odd-man rushes.

I know, that's not on a stat sheet so you wouldn't understand.

And you picked a really bad night to give Price any praise. Holding him to the same standard as Fleury - HE SUCKS! HABS SHOULD TRADE FOR WINGARZ!

Yep. Every other team helps pad their goalie's stats except the Pens. They're the only team that gives up odd man rushes and turns the puck over. Poor Fleury. He's had to face those super extra deadly shots his whole career! Forget the fact that we've changed coaches, players and systems over the years and his mediocre numbers were still a constant. It's just those extra difficult shots he's forced to take. Sound reasoning.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

Come on man. Multiple odd man rushes!!! In one game!!!!11

 

[TheSniper26]

I also like the "Price hasn't done anything in the playoffs" remark. When the Pens are ousted in the first round, Fleury is let off the hook and it's blamed on the defense. But Montreal never doing damage in the playoffs is somehow a reflection on Price individually. Another nice move of the goalposts.

Looking at their playoff numbers(Fleury at .904/Price at .907), it's probably safe to say that Price has done about as much as Fleury has to help his team in the postseason. Now he just needs to figure out how to have Crosby and Malkin on his team and he'll be set!

 

[JTG]

Carey Price has been just as wildly inconsistent as Fleury throughout the course of his career. Not sure why he's being used as a basis for comparison.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

I also like the "Price hasn't done anything in the playoffs" remark. When the Pens are ousted in the first round, Fleury is let off the hook and it's blamed on the defense. But Montreal never doing damage in the playoffs is somehow a reflection on Price individually. Another nice move of the goalposts.

Looking at their playoff numbers(Fleury at .904/Price at .907), it's probably safe to say that Price has done about as much as Fleury has to help his team in the postseason. Now he just needs to figure out how to have Crosby and Malkin on his team and he'll be set!

Um, wow. If ALL Fleury had done in the post season was early exits, then your argument that Carey Price has done just as much to help his team in the post season as Fleury has may hold some merit. As it stands, Fleury back stopped his team to 2 consecutive finals, winning 1 of them by holding one of the best offences in the league to 1 goal in each of game 6 and game 7 of the SCF, and the other run, putting up Conn
Smythe worthy numbers. But yes, Carey Proce has helped his team just as much in the post season, that their furthest playoff run in recent history was with him on the bench.

Now, you can argue that Price is the better goalie now, that you'd rather have him for future playoff runs, etc., but your above argument doesn't hold much merit.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

I also like the "Price hasn't done anything in the playoffs" remark. When the Pens are ousted in the first round, Fleury is let off the hook and it's blamed on the defense. But Montreal never doing damage in the playoffs is somehow a reflection on Price individually. Another nice move of the goalposts.

Looking at their playoff numbers(Fleury at .904/Price at .907), it's probably safe to say that Price has done about as much as Fleury has to help his team in the postseason. Now he just needs to figure out how to have Crosby and Malkin on his team and he'll be set!

There is just so much wrong with the bolded, I don't know where to start.

I know you hate MAF, but wow.

 

[TheSniper26]

Um, wow. And you just lost all credibility on the matter. If ALL Fleury had done in the post season was early exits, then your argument that Carey Price has done just as much to help his team in the post season as Fleury has may hold some merit. As it stands, Fleury back stopped his team to 2 consecutive finals, winning 1 of them by holding one of the best offences in the league to 1 goal in each of game 6 and game 7 of the SCF, and the other run, putting up Conn
Smythe worthy numbers. But yes, Carey Proce has helped his team just as much in the post season, that their furthest playoff run in recent history was with him on the bench.

Now, you can argue that Price is the better goalie now, that you'd rather have him for future playoff runs, etc., but your above argument is junk and stinks of unabashed hatred.

Again, for the umpteenth time, there have been several fairly average goalies who have played for and won the cup. We have to look no further than the goalie we beat in '09 to be reminded of that. Do two great games against the Wings negate the three meltdowns he's had since? He can't milk '09 forever.

And are we really going to ignore the fact that Fleury plays on the same team as the two best players in the world? During his cup run he put up a .908 save%. Not horrible, but is it really all that amazing? It might be one of the lower numbers of all cup winners post-lockout. Was this another time when the Pens defense was supposedly terrible? Meanwhile, Crosby/Malkin scored nearly 70 combined points during that postseason. Other goaltenders don't have the luxury of that kind of cushion.

As for the "You've lost all credibility" stuff, you're better than that. Is it really that hard for his fans to not get so emotionally wound up and resort to insults when talking about Fleury?

 

[TheSniper26]

There is just so much wrong with the bolded, I don't know where to start.

I know you hate MAF, but wow.

Not at all. I actually like MAF and root for him to do well(and so far this year, I think he is). But you perceive every criticism against him as "hate" because you're sensitive about it. And that's not meant to be a shot either. I'm the same way about Crosby because he's my favorite player. So I'm always a little more defensive about criticisms. But I don't hate MAF at all. I just don't buy the "elite" label that his fans continuously give him and I think it's a label that does more harm than good.

And to be clear, I'm not saying Price has accomplished as much as Fleury in the playoffs. Of course he hasn't. But does that mean he hasn't played as well or helped his team to a similar degree? That's a different story and more debatable. The numbers wouldn't indicate that. My point was that it's not fair to say a guy like Price or any other goalie hasn't accomplished as much because not every goalie is blessed to be playing behind Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.

 

[PensFanSince1989]

Again, for the umpteenth time, there have been several fairly average goalies who have played for and won the cup. We have to look no further than the goalie we beat in '09 to be reminded of that. Do two great games against the Wings negate the three meltdowns he's had since? He can't milk '09 forever.

And are we really going to ignore the fact that Fleury plays on the same team as the two best players in the world? During his cup run he put up a .908 save%. Not horrible, but is it really all that amazing? It might be one of the lower numbers of all cup winners post-lockout. Was this another time when the Pens defense was supposedly terrible? Meanwhile, Crosby/Malkin scored nearly 70 combined points during that postseason. Other goaltenders don't have the luxury of that kind of cushion.

As for the "You've lost all credibility" stuff, you're better than that. Is it really that hard for his fans to not get so emotionally wound up and resort to insults when talking about Fleury?

When talking about if one goalie has proven that he can win in the playoffs and win the big games, yes, that Stanley Cup ring sort of does negate his other failures when you're comparing him to a goalie that hasn't done anything in the playoffs. Yes, Fleury has had a better team than Price. But you cannot say the Penguins would have won with Price. Fleury was much more instrumental in both cup runs than you seem to like to admit. No, in '09, he didn't put up gaudy numbers, but he was as clutch as they came and he did steal us the Philly series, and was crucial in all game 6 and 7 wins in that stretch. And you seem to like to ignore his conn Smythe worthy numbers the previous season. And as far as Osgoode goes, not only are you likely under rating the guy, as there's a strong chance he enters the hall, he did play behind probably the best defensive personnel in terms of dmen and defensive forward/team defence the league had seen in a while. The best Defenceman of his era, and two perrenial sells contenders and winners in their prime...

 

[TheSniper26]

When talking about if one goalie has proven that he can win in the playoffs and win the big games, yes, that Stanley Cup ring sort of does negate his other failures when you're comparing him to a goalie that hasn't done anything in the playoffs. Yes, Fleury has had a better team than Price. But you cannot say the Penguins would have won with Price. Fleury was much more instrumental in both cup runs than you seem to like to admit. No, in '09, he didn't put up gaudy numbers, but he was as clutch as they came and he did steal us the Philly series, and was crucial in all game 6 and 7 wins in that stretch. And you seem to like to ignore his conn Smythe worthy numbers the previous season. And as far as Osgoode goes, not only are you likely under rating the guy, as there's a strong chance he enters the hall, he did play behind probably the best defensive personnel in terms of dmen and defensive forward/team defence the league had seen in a while. The best Defenceman of his era, and two perrenial sells contenders and winners in their prime...

I agree. Osgood was able to achieve his success, in large part, because of the team in front of him. Why is it fair to say that about any other goalie but not Fleury? The Pens had a solid defense that year too. But more than that, Fleury had the cushion of two guys scoring a combined 70 points in the playoffs. You don't think other goalies would fare a little better if they had that kind of production in front of them?

To say that you can't "claim the Pens would have won with Price" is accurate. I agree, I can't say that. Just as you can't say they wouldn't have won with another goalie. Ultimately neither of us can be right or wrong there because we'll never know. My opinion is that Fleury gives us solid, if average, goaltending. And with our high end talent, we're able to win with that kind of goaltending. But that doesn't make him elite and it probably doesn't make him worth 5 mil a year either.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Not at all. I actually like MAF and root for him to do well(and so far this year, I think he is). But you perceive every criticism against him as "hate" because you're sensitive about it. And that's not meant to be a shot either. I'm the same way about Crosby because he's my favorite player. So I'm always a little more defensive about criticisms. But I don't hate MAF at all. I just don't buy the "elite" label that his fans continuously give him and I think it's a label that does more harm than good.

And to be clear, I'm not saying Price has accomplished as much as Fleury in the playoffs. Of course he hasn't. But does that mean he hasn't played as well or helped his team to a similar degree? That's a different story and more debatable. The numbers wouldn't indicate that. My point was that it's not fair to say a guy like Price or any other goalie hasn't accomplished as much because not every goalie is blessed to be playing behind Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin.

I guess bashing MAF in numerous threads over numerous years means you like him. Do we need to revisit the "MAF +/- thread" of a few years ago?

Who's calling him "elite"? Defending him doesn't mean I think he's "elite". Pretty much everyone agrees that he's in the 2nd tier of starters. Almost no one calls him "elite".

And debating Price's PO accomplishments to MAF's because of stats is just a wast of time.

 

[TheSniper26]

I guess bashing MAF in numerous threads over numerous years means you like him. Do we need to revisit the "MAF +/- thread" of a few years ago?

Who's calling him "elite"? Defending him doesn't mean I think he's "elite". Pretty much everyone agrees that he's in the 2nd tier of starters. Almost no one calls him "elite".

And debating Price's PO accomplishments to MAF's because of stats is just a wast of time.

"Bashing"? Please. Pointing out a guy's inconsistencies and using stats to back up my opinion isn't "bashing" no matter how much you want to pretend it is. And you do know that I didn't start the "MAF +/-" thread right? Stop being so sensitive about this topic. Believe it or not, some of us can like and root for a player while still remaining objective about that player's worth.

And he's been called elite in this thread. Just a page or two back. Are you really going to pretend that a lot of Pens fans don't place Fleury amongst the top 5 goalies in the league because of the cup win?

Also, it's pretty much impossible to have a civil discussion with you about this. Every time I make an attempt to keep things fairly respectful(as I did in my last post) you just come back with another snarky, childish response. It's not even worth discussing this with you because you're way too emotionally invested with Fleury.

Anyway, this will be my last post on the topic because obviously all I'm doing is angering Fleury's fans and I don't want to cross over into trolling territory.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Fleury shows the love to student rushers.

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/3430849-85/fleury-seats-fans#axzz2KVRmEp5s


Now..... don't you haters feel shame? I'll expect a written apology on my desk no later than Tuesday.
All submissions will be mailed to Fleury, to lift his spirits in a time of need.

 

[Darth Vitale]

AH...the stats argument again. Here is why the "stats" argument is not totally accurate. We all pretty much agree that Corey Perry is an elite winger.

I didn't say stats were the whole picture or that they're a 100% accurate way to judge a goalie. BUT... over the course of many seasons, they ARE a legitimate means of evaluating a goalie's general level of performance. That's assuming he's not playing for a doormat team like CBJ. And you can't compare goalie stats to skating player stats... apples and oranges. The ones that matter most for Fleury, in terms of how efficient he is as a goalie, are GAA and SV%. He'll always get a decent number of wins because he's on a team with decent depth and great offensive talents, so if you go by wins and trophies, then yes... you can argue he's more elite than I suggested.

But on the whole, in terms of dominating games in a consistent way (as Quick did last year, as Lundqvist has done many years and Rinne has started to do), he's not. He never was a dominant goalie and never will be, and for me that's FINE. It's not a cut-down. We don't need "the Sidney Crosby of goalies", nor are we entitled to one. That is how I evaluate things in terms of "elite".

Note that I am NOT saying "we can't compete for a Cup with Fleury". We certainly CAN compete for a Cup with Fleury. I AM saying I don't have the unreasonable expectations some do, in order that I can logically apply a label like "elite" to him. It all started with the draft pick, like I said before. People make that mental connection and it's not a logical one.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Fleury shows the love to student rushers.

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/3430849-85/fleury-seats-fans#axzz2KVRmEp5s


Now..... don't you haters feel shame? I'll expect a written apology on my desk no later than Tuesday.
All submissions will be mailed to Fleury, to lift his spirits in a time of need.

that's pretty awesome. How about the team pitches in two get all 200 student rush tickets down into the lower bowl to maybe spark some more life into the crowd down there.

 

[Darth Vitale]

that's pretty awesome. How about the team pitches in two get all 200 student rush tickets down into the lower bowl to maybe spark some more life into the crowd down there.

I would be happy if every third seat in the first 3 rows, were students (on average, not literally arranged that way). This building needs more noise and that means fewer corporate stiffs and more students in the lower half.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I would be happy if every third seat in the first 3 rows, were students (on average, not literally arranged that way). This building needs more noise and that means fewer corporate stiffs and more students in the lower half.

and as is usually the case, most people are somewhere in the middle that will go along with the crowd. People that won't scream all game, but if a group of kids in their section start a lets go pens chant, they'd join in.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

LOL, you take issue with me including Rask in that list? Among goalies with 100+ starts he has the highest save percentage in NHL history, and by a decent margin too. Only a fool would take Fleury ahead of Rask at the present moment.

I don't want to hear about Fleury's inherent clutchness when 2 of his last 4 playoff series have been some of the worst goaltending ever seen, and in the other two his save percentage below .900. As great as Fleury was in those final two games against Detroit, 'clutchness' only matters to me if it's a repeatable skill. The last three seasons have proven that it's anything but.

Yes you are right. We all know that the Tampa Series was all his fault, especially game 7 where he choked his @$$ off by allowing 1 goal....such a seive!

 

[Ogelthorpe]

I also like the "Price hasn't done anything in the playoffs" remark. When the Pens are ousted in the first round, Fleury is let off the hook and it's blamed on the defense. But Montreal never doing damage in the playoffs is somehow a reflection on Price individually. Another nice move of the goalposts.

Looking at their playoff numbers(Fleury at .904/Price at .907), it's probably safe to say that Price has done about as much as Fleury has to help his team in the postseason. Now he just needs to figure out how to have Crosby and Malkin on his team and he'll be set!

in 08' he posted a .933 save% in the playoffs, so I'm gonna say that he had every bit as much to do with our cup finals appearance as Sid and Geno.

I get your point, having Sid and Geno helps a team win games. You still seem to not grasp our point, and that is that certain teams are harder to play for (in goal) if you want to have good stats. The facts are, the Pens give up fewer shots than most teams, but allow as many if not more quality scoring chances. Teams that give up more shots, but fewer quality chances by packing the slot, have goalies that should post better stats.

Also to note, most anyone who has ever played goalie at a somewhat competitive level or higher, will tell you that it is easier to play at the top of your game when you see consistent action in a game, than to play in a system where you don't see a shot for 5 minutes and then you get a prime chance against you.

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

in 08' he posted a .933 save% in the playoffs, so I'm gonna say that he had every bit as much to do with our cup finals appearance as Sid and Geno.

I get your point, having Sid and Geno helps a team win games. You still seem to not grasp our point, and that is that certain teams are harder to play for (in goal) if you want to have good stats. The facts are, the Pens give up fewer shots than most teams, but allow as many if not more quality scoring chances. Teams that give up more shots, but fewer quality chances by packing the slot, have goalies that should post better stats.

Also to note, most anyone who has ever played goalie at a somewhat competitive level or higher, will tell you that it is easier to play at the top of your game when you see consistent action in a game, than to play in a system where you don't see a shot for 5 minutes and then you get a prime chance against you.

So goalies who face more shots have a better save percentage and those that face less have a lower save percentage? How confident are you in such a theory?

 

[Malkin4Top6Wingerz]

Yes you are right. We all know that the Tampa Series was all his fault, especially game 7 where he choked his @$$ off by allowing 1 goal....such a seive!

Yes, let's pretend those other two games where we had a chance to close out the series didn't matter or could be used as an indicator of clutchness.

 

[rocky7]

IMO Fleury is and always has been a top ten goaltender. Bringing in Vokoun was a wise decision as it will take some heat off of Fleury and give him some rest. Last year he looked played out to me, not to mention he has been playing behind a pathetic defence (Letang being the exception). Fleury is also the kind of guy who will seek out advice from a veteran like Vokoun. The Pens goaltending situation is fixed and now they have to address the defence problem. Some guys tend to get bashed around and take flack. MAF is one of those but it never seems gets to him.

 

[Darth Vitale]

and as is usually the case, most people are somewhere in the middle that will go along with the crowd. People that won't scream all game, but if a group of kids in their section start a lets go pens chant, they'd join in.

The yoots are our future.