News Article: Marc-Andre Fleury: Why the Penguins Should Bench Him

[JTG]

i also dont think there are a ton of "fleury haters" out there.

the majority of folks that are skeptical of fleury really want the guy to succeed. we've basically watched the guy grow up. we remember that amazing toe save he made on frolov in his first nhl game. everyone was happy for him when he went down in history making the save on lidstrom (which btw is one of the greatest plays to end a SC final ever). im rooting for the guy... but damn, the flyers series have soured me on him. that was on of the all-time worst goalie performances ever.

hard to erase that memory.

For me, when it comes to Fleury, is that you have people who really are blind haters. He can have an amazing game, and then a thread like this pops up. You have people who will never give him credit because they just simply don't like him. You also have people who will always blame anything that goes wrong on him. I have watched him completely hung out to dry on numerous occasions and after a goal you see posts like, "Flueurey "

I get the skepticism of him. I can completely agree that he hasn't lived up to his contract for stretches at a time, and he has some shaky confidence. I can also see that he backstopped this team to two Cup finals and won one. You can get to one Cup final on a fluke. You can't do it twice, and then win the second time. I also watched this guy in the playoffs when we were on our way to the finals, completely steal a series.

Last season, I think Fleury took some huge steps. For the duration of his career, I always thought, he was a part of this core, and being part of this core, he needed to help us win games when we needed him to. Rather, in recent history, when we needed him to help us win games, he would just bend under the pressure. Last season was the first season I legitimately thought he was winning us games we had no reason to win.

The road Fleury has taken hasn't been smooth. I think we can all remember who have been fans for a long time, he was horribly mismanaged by the previous regime. You can't jerk a goaltender around like he was, nor can you rush him. IMO, we rushed him, then we jerked him around, then we sat here wondering, "well why isn't this guy developing like he should?"

Long and short of what I'm saying...Fleury is pretty far down the list on things I'd worry about with this team.

 

[Shockmaster]

Long and short of what I'm saying...Fleury is pretty far down the list on things I'd worry about with this team.

A lot of the bashers won't accept that because the goalie is the most visible guy on the team. People who don't have any basic understanding of the game just blame the guy most visible. You don't have to be an expert of the game to see that goaltending is not an issue for the Penguins.

 

[Til the End of Time]

For me, when it comes to Fleury, is that you have people who really are blind haters. He can have an amazing game, and then a thread like this pops up. You have people who will never give him credit because they just simply don't like him. You also have people who will always blame anything that goes wrong on him. I have watched him completely hung out to dry on numerous occasions and after a goal you see posts like, "Flueurey "

I get the skepticism of him. I can completely agree that he hasn't lived up to his contract for stretches at a time, and he has some shaky confidence. I can also see that he backstopped this team to two Cup finals and won one. You can get to one Cup final on a fluke. You can't do it twice, and then win the second time. I also watched this guy in the playoffs when we were on our way to the finals, completely steal a series.

Last season, I think Fleury took some huge steps. For the duration of his career, I always thought, he was a part of this core, and being part of this core, he needed to help us win games when we needed him to. Rather, in recent history, when we needed him to help us win games, he would just bend under the pressure. Last season was the first season I legitimately thought he was winning us games we had no reason to win.

The road Fleury has taken hasn't been smooth. I think we can all remember who have been fans for a long time, he was horribly mismanaged by the previous regime. You can't jerk a goaltender around like he was, nor can you rush him. IMO, we rushed him, then we jerked him around, then we sat here wondering, "well why isn't this guy developing like he should?"

Long and short of what I'm saying...Fleury is pretty far down the list on things I'd worry about with this team.

fair enough, and perhaps i do underestimate the quantity of fleury haters.

however about the bolded and the paragraph that follows...

how do you reconcile his play in the flyers series with his regular season play? for me, anything he did in the regular season was erased by the playoffs.

and about fleury being jerked around/mismanaged. sure i agree. but eventually what happened in the past doesnt matter. ultimately fleury is coming close to the age where his development is largely over, and you have to look at him for what he currently brings to the table. its a shame how he was developed, but that becomes water under the bridge, at some point.

 

[Til the End of Time]

A lot of the bashers won't accept that because the goalie is the most visible guy on the team. People who don't have any basic understanding of the game just blame the guy most visible. You don't have to be an expert of the game to see that goaltending is not an issue for the Penguins.

it was enough of an issue for them to bring in a potential starting goaltender. if they had complete confidence in him, they would have saved money and gone with a career backup.

signing a guy like vokoun indicates that management wasnt totally satisfied with the goaltender situation.

 

[Shockmaster]

fair enough, and perhaps i do underestimate the quantity of fleury haters.

however about the bolded and the paragraph that follows...

how do you reconcile his play in the flyers series with his regular season play? for me, anything he did in the regular season was erased by the playoffs.

and about fleury being jerked around/mismanaged. sure i agree. but eventually what happened in the past doesnt matter. ultimately fleury is coming close to the age where his development is largely over, and you have to look at him for what he currently brings to the table. its a shame how he was developed, but that becomes water under the bridge, at some point.

I think the Penguins are doing their best to make sure that doesn't happen again by a) giving Fleury more rest during the regular season, and b) playing better and more responsible hockey in front of him. The Penguins weren't exactly a goalie-friendly team to begin with last season, and Fleury went into a slump at the wrong time. Quite frankly if it wasn't for Fleury the Penguins might have had a higher draft pick.

Where the Fleury bashers just come off as silly is when they put sole blame on Fleury for the playoff losses to Tampa Bay and Montreal.

 

[JTG]

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fair enough, and perhaps i do underestimate the quantity of fleury haters.

however about the bolded and the paragraph that follows...

how do you reconcile his play in the flyers series with his regular season play? for me, anything he did in the regular season was erased by the playoffs.

and about fleury being jerked around/mismanaged. sure i agree. but eventually what happened in the past doesnt matter. ultimately fleury is coming close to the age where his development is largely over, and you have to look at him for what he currently brings to the table. its a shame how he was developed, but that becomes water under the bridge, at some point.

He didn't play well in the Philly series, but the fact is, no one did, especially when anything on the defensive side of things was involved. The team was terrible as a whole. I honestly can't think of one redeeming quality in that entire series.

I think Vokoun was brought in because it's good to have a really solid backup. Fleury plays his best when he has someone pushing him. Is that a flaw with Fleury? Maybe. If a guy like Vokoun is available, you have a guy who can step in and play a big chunk of games and keep Fleury fresh, and you also don't worry when he goes down. I think the Vokoun signing was more indicative of how poorly Johnson played than anything else, and management saw that we couldn't solely rely on Fleury. It's also a good insurance policy...never a bad idea to bring in a great backup goaltender.

 

[Til the End of Time]

even if fleury wasnt the main reason for the playoff losses to tb/montreal/phila, i definitely think he's among the top 3 or so reasons why they lost each of those series.

and consistently being among the top reasons why a team loses in the playoffs isnt good enough. thats ultimately what it boils down to for me.

 

[Shockmaster]

it was enough of an issue for them to bring in a potential starting goaltender. if they had complete confidence in him, they would have saved money and gone with a career backup.

signing a guy like vokoun indicates that management wasnt totally satisfied with the goaltender situation.

Obviously they weren't satisfied with the goalie situation, but was that on Fleury or was it because of Johnson's poor play? Fleury having to play close to 70 games probably wasn't by design.

Assuming the Penguins got Vokoun because they lack confidence in Fleury is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[Ugene Magic]

The goalies are an extension of how the game is played in front of them. Yes, they do have stinkers, but for the most part if you play poorly in front of any goaltender goals are gonna come of it.

I have no problem not labeling Fleury elite, however, he's no Bryzgalov either.

 

[Shockmaster]

even if fleury wasnt the main reason for the playoff losses to tb/montreal/phila, i definitely think he's among the top 3 or so reasons why they lost each of those series.

and consistently being among the top reasons why a team loses in the playoffs isnt good enough.

He definitely was not a top reason against Tampa Bay. If you think that then you need to take off the hater glasses. Against Montreal he wasn't as stingy, but I'd put the majority of that loss on Geno's line - they were no-shows.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Obviously they weren't satisfied with the goalie situation, but was that on Fleury or was it because of Johnson's poor play? Fleury having to play close to 70 games probably wasn't by design.

Assuming the Penguins got Vokoun because they lack confidence in Fleury is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

Or could it be the horrendous defense played before them, with an extension to the system.

Edit: How many one on ones the last few seasons with Fleury in the playoffs where guys just totally blew there coverage and their guy was all alone?

More than the fingers/thumbs on your hands.

Just think back. That's sickening.

 

[TheSniper26]

Obviously they weren't satisfied with the goalie situation, but was that on Fleury or was it because of Johnson's poor play? Fleury having to play close to 70 games probably wasn't by design.

Assuming the Penguins got Vokoun because they lack confidence in Fleury is a bit of a knee-jerk reaction.

Come on, this is getting silly. You think, after Fleury's awful series against the Flyers, the Pens decided to go out and get a potential starter because they were worried about their dime-a-dozen backup Brent Johnson?

One thing we can agree on is that Fleury's workload should be reduced. It's no coincidence to me that his best postseason came in '08 after playing the least amount of regular season games in his career. Not every goalie needs to be a workhorse.

 

[Gooch]

Goaltending is probably the single most difficult position to gauge long term out of any of the sports. I can only think of 2 goaltenders in the league currently have have been consistently good each year. Pretty much the entire crowd of who's "elite" changes on a year to year basis with some top 5 goaltenders of a few years ago looking laughable today. Outside of Brodeur and Lundqvist can you think of a goaltender currently playing who has been consistently a top 5 goaltender? I am struggling to think of any as all of them have had their warts at times. So I use this to temper my expectations with Fleury. Is he to goaltending what Crosby and Malkin are to forwards... oh god no! But he has been solid and while not exactly always worth his cap hit I don't see the team being drastically improved by swapping him with someone else who then fizzles out a season or a few months later like most all goaltenders do.

 

[Al Smith]

This is a moronic article. Last year, Fleury played too much, because BJ stunk. Vokoun was a major upgrade to BJ. He will more competently spell Fleury, and Fleury (and Vokoun if necessary) will be better in the playoffs as a result.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I want Fleury to succeed, but his mediocre regular seasons and dismal playoff performances are trying my patience. When was his last good playoff series? Can anyone remember?

He gets a lot more rope than most goalies would.

 

[Sideline]

I want Fleury to succeed, but his mediocre regular seasons and dismal playoff performances are trying my patience. When was his last good playoff series? Can anyone remember?

He gets a lot more rope than most goalies would.

If this were a Canadian market Fleury would have long since been chased out of town by a pitch-fork and torch wielding mob. He's been okay so far this year, but the Montreal and Philly series will always stick with me. I will never feel confident in the Penguins playoff goaltending without a solid backup behind Fleury.

 

[Smoke]

Come on, this is getting silly. You think, after Fleury's awful series against the Flyers, the Pens decided to go out and get a potential starter because they were worried about their dime-a-dozen backup Brent Johnson?

One thing we can agree on is that Fleury's workload should be reduced. It's no coincidence to me that his best postseason came in '08 after playing the least amount of regular season games in his career. Not every goalie needs to be a workhorse.

I completely agree, but on the other side of this argument they say that he should be able to withstand that amount of workload given his salary.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If this were a Canadian market Fleury would have long since been chased out of town by a pitch-fork and torch wielding mob. He's been okay so far this year, but the Montreal and Philly series will always stick with me. I will never feel confident in the Penguins playoff goaltending without a solid backup behind Fleury.

Honestly though, he also sucked in the Tampa series - GAA above 2.50 and SV% below .900. And in the '10 playoffs, he had a 2.78 GAA and his SV% was .891.

Ever since the Cup win, he's been about the furthest thing from a "money goalie" as a keeper can be. If he craps out this year, I'm done. He's got a fantastic guy to platoon with now too, so there's not a single excuse why he can't perform to his salary.

 

[Crafton]

I completely agree, but on the other side of this argument they say that he should be able to withstand that amount of workload given his salary.

i think this is a valid view. he was 10th for Games Started and 8th for Games Played last year. if Johnson wasn't awful he'd probably have been 10th for GP as well. i think it's a legitimate expectation that he should be able withstand that amount of workload without imploding (he's 28 and probably the most athletically gifted netminder in the league). Quick, Rinne and Niemi all played more games in the regular season and had adequate to excellent playoffs.

 

[TheSniper26]

I completely agree, but on the other side of this argument they say that he should be able to withstand that amount of workload given his salary.

And I totally agree with that side of the argument. We pay him 5 mil a year. To be worth that, he should be able to withstand that workload. But facts are facts and it seems pretty clear that he's not able to. Which is part of why I don't think Fleury is worth his contract. But while he's here, I'd rather they limit his games and get the best out of him when it matters most.

 

[doob]

Career Shoot-out wins: Goalies

http://www.nhl.com/ice/shootoutstat...tGamesWon&viewName=shootoutGoalieCareerTotals

 

[Til the End of Time]

how much does vokoun make? 2 million i think?

so the pens are spending 7 million or so in salary cap space on their goaltending duo.

i honestly dont know, how does that compare to other goalie tandems in the league? i would imagine thats rather high. anyone know?

 

[Til the End of Time]

Career Shoot-out wins: Goalies

http://www.nhl.com/ice/shootoutstat...tGamesWon&viewName=shootoutGoalieCareerTotals

no offense man, but shoot out wins isnt... umm.... much of anything.

 

[JTG]

If this were a Canadian market Fleury would have long since been chased out of town by a pitch-fork and torch wielding mob. He's been okay so far this year, but the Montreal and Philly series will always stick with me. I will never feel confident in the Penguins playoff goaltending without a solid backup behind Fleury.

The Montreal series was the worst goaltending performance I've ever seen. Philly was bad, but everything was bad there. Montreal, the defense wasn't terrible...Fleury just gave up back breaker after back breaker.

The thing with Fleury is people lump his stats all into one, but if you look at them from a game to game basis, I think it's more telling.

In 4 games this season, all of which were wins, he has a 1.25 GAA and a 0.954 SV%. That's top notch in the league.

In his 2 losses, he has a 4.5 GAA and a 0.780 SV%.

 

[Sam Spade]

Yeah you definitely may be able to ride Vokoun to a cup. No chance with a guy like Fleury back there though.

Four playoffs ago is not today.

Say Fleury craps the bed in game one of the playoffs and the Pens lose, do you start Vokoun in game two? Probably not out of some misguided sense of loyalty.

Say he screws up again in game two and lets in a bad goal or two but the Pens score 6 and win? Do you start MAF or Vokoun in game three?

This may not happen, but what of it does? I could see Vokoun coming in and playing lights out and the leading the Pens to a Cup, he is that good. It is certainly nice to know that at least this year the Pens have a legitimate option if MAF fails.