The Sun: Maple Leafs on trial; heads may roll. Just about everything in question.

[Pebble live]

We lost
Mikheyev
Kase
Spezza
Picked up
janrok
Nak
Zar

Offense took a big hit

Picked up Benn who is almost done
mete who couldn’t make Montreal or Ottawa

Knew muzzin was another injury away from retirement
Knew Lilly was gone for two months

Traded for a goalie who hasn’t been healthy for the last three years. You would have thought he would have learned that lesson from the Foligno and mrazek debacles. Dubas has a hard time thinking he is not The smartest in the room.

Dubas is straight trash.

 

[egd27]

Yet other teams are in the same boat. But then we hear "Oh but they won a round" which is complete BS excuse to ignore context and continue to shit on the team. Like the Blues have lost 5 in a row on the back of terrible defense but no one is saying the team is broken and has no hope.

Yeah I was probably a bit insulting but it has been frustrating the past few weeks dealing with everyone being chicken littles after spending the entire summer saying all that matters is game 1 of the playoffs. It's especially dumb because I know by Dec 1st people will pretend this freakout never happened.

2nd thread on the Blues Board

 

[ToneDog]

2nd thread on the Blues Board
View attachment 601754

But nobody is talking about it here !! Duh.

Dubas is straight trash.

Not even worth the recycle bin. Luke Fox on Kyper and Bourne all had good points why this team is where it is today and it is one man's fault.

 

[PromisedLand]

Finally! Praise the Lord !

 

[sxvnert]

Simmonds............

/thread

 

[stealth1]

My favorite thing is most people can't remember things that happened last week but they claim they remember with crystal clarity how the team played last season to start and this start is different.

And when, not if, they go on a winning streak, these same folks claiming to fire everyone will say the wins don't matter. This is never about the teams play or potential. This is just fans having hissy fits because they didn't get what they wanted over the summer which was blood.

The thing is last season the underlying numbers during the beginning of the season said they would turn it around. This season is a different story. October was an easy schedule compared to the schedule in November. They look slow this season as well.

 

[AvroArrow]

Simmonds............

/thread

He's a complete jackass, but I don't think he's wrong here.

 

[HockeyVirus]

The thing is last season the underlying numbers during the beginning of the season said they would turn it around. This season is a different story. October was an easy schedule compared to the schedule in November. They look slow this season as well.

Right Matthews and Marner are playing like shit. You think this is the best these players can play? How many of those games would we win if they were playing like they can? This nearly same group of dmen went from playing with good structure and being top 10 in shots against and many other categories to not even looking like they can make a breakout pass.

And yet people are saying yeah this is what this team is. You guys are victims of the Toronto media being trolls to drive engagement. I'm not falling for it because I know this team and I know they can look horrid against bad teams. I also know when they are playing like they can and they aren't even close. They aren't moving their feet it has nothing even to do with skill.

Wouldn't be surprised if we win every game the next 2 weeks and this board goes silent.

 

[stealth1]

Right Matthews and Marner are playing like shit. You think this is the best these players can play? How many of those games would we win if they were playing like they can? This nearly same group of dmen went from playing with good structure and being top 10 in shots against and many other categories to not even looking like they can make a breakout pass.

And yet people are saying yeah this is what this team is. You guys are victims of the Toronto media being trolls to drive engagement. I'm not falling for it because I know this team and I know they can look horrid against bad teams. I also know when they are playing like they can and they aren't even close. They aren't moving their feet it has nothing even to do with skill.

Wouldn't be surprised if we win every game the next 2 weeks and this board goes silent.

It has nothing to do with the talent. Sure they will win some games when the talent start scoring. This is what this team is. If the top guys aren't scoring or out working teams they lose. They are near the bottom in 5 on 5 goals and their defense looks slow.

 

[HockeyVirus]

It has nothing to do with the talent. Sure they will win some games when the talent start scoring. This is what this team is. If the top guys aren't scoring or out working teams they lose. They are near the bottom in 5 on 5 goals and their defense looks slow.

Let's talk in 30 days and see what the numbers look like.

 

[ChadBigly]

Dubas is straight trash.

Dubas is Mike Milbury with analytics.

 

[Tak7]

We've spent the better part of the last week seriously talking about the significant changes that could potentially be on the way with this team if they keep losing, but the second Simmonds mentions it we dog on him lol.

He's an idiot & a hot take merchant, but he's not wrong here. There's more at stake over the next few games that a simple 11 or 12 game stretch to start the season.

 

[SoVi3t]

I've been a pretty strong supporter of the moves Dubas has made and I think that the development and back office of the Leafs is excellent.

I've never disliked Dubas but I've never been a big supporter either. I have never really had many issues with any of his moves or signings, outside of the entire Marner/Nylander situations but Nylander didn't turn out too bad in the end there.

But this offseason was entirely disappointing to me. We shrank as a team, we absolutely didn't improve. And that's entirely on Dubas. I didn't approve of any of his moves, of anything he did in the off season.

I think at least 3 heads are on the block and that's being incredibly conservative.

 

[ToneDog]

Dubas is Mike Milbury with analytics.

Kyper claims they made the Murray trade because of the analytics. If he is right and tat trumped his injury history, shame on them. I mean you gambled on Mrazek last year who also had an history of injuries (IIRC he is out again with a groin injury) and as many predicted he was injured 3 times. Did you not learn anything ?? Sheesh.

 

[sparxx87]

Nice post! It's so easy to dump on Dubas as almost everyone seems to be doing but most of these dumps smell like well, dumps. And I'm soo sick about people whining about Tavares, the guys one of the few who is playing well this season, hard to imagine where we might be without him at this point.

Having said that, it's so hard to figure out what is wrong with this team but something seems to be very wrong indeed. Simmons isn't always wrong and I think in this case he's probably right. I didn't read the article but at least the part quoted in the OP has the ring of truth to it. The owners are probably used to writing off the season after the 1st playoff round but writing off a season in November, I doubt they'll sit quietly and watch that happen.

I say changes are coming soon, big changes. Hopefully that big change is the way the current group plays on the ice but at this point, it's really hard to see that happening.

So you acknowledge theres a problem but can't identify what it is?

Do you think the people that were dumping on the Dubas hire from the jump, just got lucky? Those who had the foresight and critically thought ahead to see a multitude of problems... Did they just guess? Or was there real reason for concern, even if some of the most die hard, attentive fans couldn't see it? Honest question, because I take issue with you insinuating that any of the flack Dubas is getting hasn't been well earned. That their opinion smells like dump, and that they're whining about Tavares. For the 967th time, its not JT, we all like JT, but $11M to the 2nd line centre has left nowhere near enough to build out the rest of a competitive roster... The secondary group is completely void of intangibles because they can only afford plug bottom 6 players from the bargain bin to fill important roles on their team... This has always been a losing strategy. It's not about Tavares - I like Tavares.

I understand taking issue with the many I've seen that have flip-flopped - But theres at least a decent sized group that have been singing the same song all along.... and we didn't just make a lucky guess.

 

[TribalPhoenix]

It's funny, at the beginning of the year everyone said "Kyle inherited this great core, he didn't do anything to set the single-season record", and now that the core is a big issue (it won't continue), people are bringing them up along with Dubas as an issue.

I am sure people will say he re-signed them, but that was not credited to him at the beginning of the season. His Tavares signing was, often. And he seems to be performing well.

He may have inherited the rights to the core, but it was Kyle and only Kyle who gave them all super player-friendly deals and paid them all as if they were proven winners before they'd won a damn thing.

They had the two richest extensions in Matthews and Marner in league history, outside of McDavid, coming out of their rookie deals. In fact, Marner got the richest extension of any RW in league history coming out of his ELC, and Edmonton got McDavid for 8 seasons rather than Kyle walking Matthews to free agency over 5 years only 1M$ cheaper. He basically cost a season of Nylander by waiting to the 11th hour before caving and giving him everything he wanted - which he could have done 6 months earlier and had him in training camp.

Say what you want, but Lou Lamoriello would have never, ever, EVER handed out those contracts. EVER.

When push comes to shove, Dubas has squandered every possible asset available to him. He gave away cap space to kids who hadn't accomplished anything yet and made them very, very rich. He traded draft picks for guys who did nothing to help the team. He made some decent trades, but also some terrible ones and let the acquired assets walk so he could focus on his vision of a team, and undeserved loyalty to guys who didn't deserve it (how do you not get rid of Holl and give Lyubushkin the same dollar amount given he was a VAST improvement over what we had?)

I really think Kyle will be a very successful GM one day, but not here, and not until he gets a lot more experience under his belt. He's not eaten his piece of humble pie yet, and hasn't shown an ounce of humility that maybe, just maybe, his vision for how to build a team is flawed. Up this point, though, he's considered himself the smartest kid in the room and the walls are about to come crashing down hard.

 

[notbias]

He may have inherited the rights to the core, but it was Kyle and only Kyle who gave them all super player-friendly deals and paid them all as if they were proven winners before they'd won a damn thing.

They had the two richest extensions in Matthews and Marner in league history, outside of McDavid, coming out of their rookie deals. In fact, Marner got the richest extension of any RW in league history coming out of his ELC, and Edmonton got McDavid for 8 seasons rather than Kyle walking Matthews to free agency over 5 years only 1M$ cheaper. He basically cost a season of Nylander by waiting to the 11th hour before caving and giving him everything he wanted - which he could have done 6 months earlier and had him in training camp.

Say what you want, but Lou Lamoriello would have never, ever, EVER handed out those contracts. EVER.

When push comes to shove, Dubas has squandered every possible asset available to him. He gave away cap space to kids who hadn't accomplished anything yet and made them very, very rich. He traded draft picks for guys who did nothing to help the team. He made some decent trades, but also some terrible ones and let the acquired assets walk so he could focus on his vision of a team, and undeserved loyalty to guys who didn't deserve it (how do you not get rid of Holl and give Lyubushkin the same dollar amount given he was a VAST improvement over what we had?)

I really think Kyle will be a very successful GM one day, but not here, and not until he gets a lot more experience under his belt. He's not eaten his piece of humble pie yet, and hasn't shown an ounce of humility that maybe, just maybe, his vision for how to build a team is flawed. Up this point, though, he's considered himself the smartest kid in the room and the walls are about to come crashing down hard.

Marner is overpaid, but Matthews' isn't.

Lub is a #7 just like Holl.

Nylander caved.

 

[ChadBigly]

Kyper claims they made the Murray trade because of the analytics. If he is right and tat trumped his injury history, shame on them. I mean you gambled on Mrazek last year who also had an history of injuries (IIRC he is out again with a groin injury) and as many predicted he was injured 3 times. Did you not learn anything ?? Sheesh.

Yep he really is this stupid. He is Mike Milbury tier. Everything he does is because of his precious analytics. Telling him pretty little lies in his ear.

"Just close your eyes and trust in the Corsi, your Expected Goals are sky high! You can't lose! shhhh it'll all be alright. You believe in this core, remember?. Just run it back again next year. Playoffs are just luck anyway. Morgan Rielly is a #1 defenseman. Goaltending is voodoo, don't bother with it."

 

[hamzarocks]

Marner is overpaid, but Matthews' isn't.

Lub is a #7 just like Holl.

Nylander caved.

Matthews was 100% overpaid at the time of his signing

He's lived up/outperformed the deal in 2 years and was unable to live up to the deal in 2019-2020

So far having a slow start this year but should be around 100 pts by year end and top 3 in rocket so likely lives up to it

We should have gotten 8 full years at 11.634

He had basically no accomplishments when be signed the deal both team and personal outside the Calder.

His individual production wasn't ever top 10 in pts or ppg on his ELC

If we wanted to pay him what he'd be worth in his prime 11.634 was fine but we shouldn't have given up 3 years of cost control at that

Should have been 8 year term

 

[TribalPhoenix]

Marner is overpaid, but Matthews' isn't.

Lub is a #7 just like Holl.

Nylander caved.

Matthews isn't, but you've got him for five years. Edmonton to McDavid, a superior player, for 8 years at only 1M$ more per season. So if the Leafs want Matthews for the next 2 years after while Edmonton has McDavid, they're paying him probably 1.5M$ *MORE* than McDavid.

Lyub played top-four minutes last season for us and looked fine doing it with Reilly.

Nylander was asking for 7M$ the entire year, the Leafs wanted him at 5.5M$. This is well known.

 

[Americanadian]

What I don't get about Dubas is why he'd stake his job on a core that he didn't even get to pick (outside Tavares - but Tavares picked Toronto rather than Toronto picking him). If I held such a high profile job I'd want to be able to select the highest performers for my team rather than riding the ones I inherited until they cost me my job,

 

[notbias]

Matthews isn't, but you've got him for five years. Edmonton to McDavid, a superior player, for 8 years at only 1M$ more per season. So if the Leafs want Matthews for the next 2 years after while Edmonton has McDavid, they're paying him probably 1.5M$ *MORE* than McDavid.

You have to use cap hit %, not total dollars.

Lyub played top-four minutes last season for us and looked fine doing it with Reilly.

Playoff TOI

Nylander was asking for 7M$ the entire year, the Leafs wanted him at 5.5M$. This is well known.

It was reported $8 million.

Nylander's camp appears stuck on $8M AAV - TSN.ca

Restricted free agent William Nylander said Thursday in Sweden that he's staying out of contract talks and allowing his agent to handle negotiations with the Toronto Maple Leafs. According to TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger, Nylander’s agent, Lewis Gross, has yet to drop his initial ask of more...

www.tsn.ca

 

[ToneDog]

good analagy:

This is Keefe’s dilemma. He’s damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t. He has a six-man defence that is a Rubik’s Cube. No matter how many times you move the parts around, the problems remain.

 

[ChadBigly]

good analagy:

This is Keefe’s dilemma. He’s damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t. He has a six-man defence that is a Rubik’s Cube. No matter how many times you move the parts around, the problems remain.

Well a Rubik's Cube is still solvable - I'd say somebody gave him a Rubik's Cube with a couple of missing stickers.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Regular season is more like passive pond hockey than the post season. Over an 82 game schedule your skill players win you enough games to get you into the playoffs. It's less tight. Less physical. Less emphasis on defense.

Once the playoffs start, its easier to shut down star players in a grueling best of 7 series.

Columbus and Montreal took the approach to box out our star players. Due to only half our cap to spend on our other 18 players, our "depth" accomplished little.

Tampa took the approach of "our super star forwards vs your super stars forwards" And the super star battle was close. But due to how much less money their star players make (you'll blame taxes, I'll blame an incompetent rookie gm) they have an utterly elite defenseman and goalie... as well as better overall depth.

Ok pretend our star players took less like Tampa's, where are you finding Norris and Vezina candidates to pay that extra money? Blaming 1-2 mil overpayments as the reason we don't have a Vasi or Hedman is insane, it would only be relevant if we had guys that good that we had to let go in UFA. All the extra cap would do is get you Kuemper instead of Murray and a 2-3mil D instead of Mete, you're still never getting Vasi/Hedman unless you get incredibly lucky and draft them.