Management Threads | Structure. Standards. Habits.

[Just A Bit Outside]

Maybe those seats are for OEL, Myers, Pearson and Poolman next year.

 

[mossey3535]

Not management but ownership on this one.



A completely ludicrous ask (3 year contract at $25,000 per) for such a consistently horrid product.

I addressed this already in the training camp thread:

I thought they might mean season ticket "activations" and I'm like motherf***ers why don't you win some games first.

 

[mossey3535]

Structure. Standards. Habits. Lip Service!

Tocchet style + team's players = Square pegs in round holes

And Another wasted year

I normally agree with you but IMO this year's playoffs show that even if your team has a lot of warts and holes, you're simply better off with a structured team and a coach that can get them into that structure.

 

[Javaman]

I normally agree with you but IMO this year's playoffs show that even if your team has a lot of warts and holes, you're simply better off with a structured team and a coach that can get them into that structure.

I said something related several weeks ago: I'm convinced that management believes that improvement won't be based simply on upgrading players. I think JRPA believes that improving the team relies as much upon improving coaching/systems as it does upon upgrading players.

I think that's going to be the significant response to the cap situation by them until more of Benning's bungles dissolve away over time.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Not management but ownership on this one.



A completely ludicrous ask (3 year contract at $25,000 per) for such a consistently horrid product.

That is just insane...

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Don't think it's that at all. Think management wanted to move on from Bo, and thank goodness for that. I'm elated that guy is finally off the team. I feel terrible for Islanders fans being duped by Vancouver fans into thinking Bo is something he's not.

So that leaves the Miller predicament. They tried to move him. Enough smoke there in the rumor mill alongside Allvin's comments to conclude they've tried to move him. But a deal hasn't come together yet.

So what do ya do? Just let him walk for nothing? He's a PPG top line center who plays the right way. I think the idea is that we sign this guy and try to find the right deal later on, maybe when the cap goes up and we have some more cap flexibility.

Worst case scenario, we have a really good player on a contract that will be a problem 4-5 years down the road. I don't think there's much more to it than that.

I would say he plays the opposite of the right way.

I think the contract will be a problem sooner than 4-5 years. He was not worth that money LAST year, before the contract had even started.

I think the contract is almost certainly going to turn bad before we are in any shape to contend. So its just bad all around.

At least Horvat is younger and a decent 2 way piece when he is not scoring.

 

[BrentSopelsHair]

I would say he plays the opposite of the right way.

I think the contract will be a problem sooner than 4-5 years. He was not worth that money LAST year, before the contract had even started.

I think the contract is almost certainly going to turn bad before we are in any shape to contend. So its just bad all around.

At least Horvat is younger and a decent 2 way piece when he is not scoring.

I think this is an under-appreciated point. Miller had the best year of his career by a country mile, and the Canucks (of course) were the team that bit and paid him based on that career year (when they still had him under contract for another year!)

It's unlikely (but obviously not impossible) that Miller ever plays at an $8m level over the course of the contract, and thus its never good value for a second of its 7-year runtime. While there's usually a premium paid to good players hitting a contract year, this is palatable for about a year before becoming a truly unpleasant thing to have on your cap sheet

 

[racerjoe]

I think this is an under-appreciated point. Miller had the best year of his career by a country mile, and the Canucks (of course) were the team that bit and paid him based on that career year (when they still had him under contract for another year!)

It's unlikely (but obviously not impossible) that Miller ever plays at an $8m level over the course of the contract, and thus its never good value for a second of its 7-year runtime. While there's usually a premium paid to good players hitting a contract year, this is palatable for about a year before becoming a truly unpleasant thing to have on your cap sheet

You guys are off your rocker if you don't think a ppg player is an 8 mil player in todays game. Miller is a superior player to Horvat in everything except F/O and even there it is close enough. You can argue about contract length, but in the hear and now it is a very good value for what we are paying him now.

We are not paying him as a 100pt player. We are paying him as a ppg player.

 

[arttk]

I think this is an under-appreciated point. Miller had the best year of his career by a country mile, and the Canucks (of course) were the team that bit and paid him based on that career year (when they still had him under contract for another year!)

It's unlikely (but obviously not impossible) that Miller ever plays at an $8m level over the course of the contract, and thus its never good value for a second of its 7-year runtime. While there's usually a premium paid to good players hitting a contract year, this is palatable for about a year before becoming a truly unpleasant thing to have on your cap sheet

Miller puts up ppg in a “down” season.
Hfposters proclaims it’s unlikely for him to live up to a 8M year contract.

Uh huh..

 

[credulous]

miller had 31 5v5 points putting him around garland, kuznetsov, martinook, sprong, hayes, konecny and barzal. his defense was absolutely terrible. 8m is barely a fair contract for him and it's all predicated on him being the engine of the canucks power play

 

[strattonius]

miller had 31 5v5 points putting him around garland, kuznetsov, martinook, sprong, hayes, konecny and barzal. his defense was absolutely terrible. 8m is barely a fair contract for him and it's all predicated on him being the engine of the canucks power play

Outside of Martinook that list of players is good.

 

[Nucker101]

miller had 31 5v5 points putting him around garland, kuznetsov, martinook, sprong, hayes, konecny and barzal. his defense was absolutely terrible. 8m is barely a fair contract for him and it's all predicated on him being the engine of the canucks power play

I mean he’s a pretty good powerplay player, he’s not a product of the powerplay, he’s a primary reason why the powerplay has been top 10 overall during his Canuck career.

He’s also a legit powerforward, not many players in the league that are both as physical and productive as JT, like it or not that does add value in most GM’s/coaches eyes.

I still would’ve traded him and expect his contract to turn ugly later on but right now he’s well worth the $8M

 

[bossram]

You guys are off your rocker if you don't think a ppg player is an 8 mil player in todays game. Miller is a superior player to Horvat in everything except F/O and even there it is close enough. You can argue about contract length, but in the hear and now it is a very good value for what we are paying him now.

We are not paying him as a 100pt player. We are paying him as a ppg player.

Miller puts up ppg in a “down” season.
Hfposters proclaims it’s unlikely for him to live up to a 8M year contract.

Uh huh..

There's no good to being a "point-per-game" player if said player is still a net negative at 5v5. That's extremely poor value. Miller's defensive play is poor, and he's been outscored at 5v5 in two of the last three seasons. He's not even an offensive driver at 5v5 either. His 5v5 scoring is middle-six tier.

Miller racks up points on the PP. If he wants to be that kind of player, he should be paid like RNH, not $8M.

 

[Nucker101]

There's no good to being a "point-per-game" player if said player is still a net negative at 5v5. That's extremely poor value. Miller's defensive play is poor, and he's been outscored at 5v5 in two of the last three seasons. He's not even an offensive driver at 5v5 either. His 5v5 scoring is middle-six tier.

Miller racks up points on the PP. If he wants to be that kind of player, he should be paid like RNH, not $8M.

If RNH was due for a contract right now, there's no way in hell that he's getting anywhere near as low as the 5.125M AAV he's on right now.

 

[bossram]

If RNH was due for a contract right now, there's no way in hell that he's getting anywhere near as low as the 5.125M AAV he's on right now.

That's what RNH is worth. He's a PP merchant and that's it.

Would he get paid more? Sure. But that team would be making a mistake and wasting cap space on a player who can't live up to the deal.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

Think there's a large difference between Miller, who is a high end PP QB, and RNH, who mainly complements McDavid/Draisaitl.

 

[Soups On]

Probably shouldn't get into this but

Miller is worth $8 million. The question has always been is he worth it over term and that's where there should be discourse. He has a rough start defensively and was not playing like he had shown in his previous years with the Canucks. He righted that ship and clawed back to PPG somehow.

He also isn't a passenger on the powerplay like Boeser. He's one of the main reason it did well.

I wasn't onboard with the Miller contract when it was signed because I hoped the team would get a haul for him and use those pieces to shore up the defense. That didn't happen obviously, but that doesn't mean I have to go revisionist on things and shit on the player when he's been a big net positive for this team over the past few years. He's also been better defensively than Horvat and his contract is better than Horvat's. Pretty sure he also has a better 5v5 differential than Horvat in almost every year he's been on this team.

Also this entire team f***ing sucked at 5v5 with Green and last year with Boudreau. Save for the short period of Tocchet and Boudreau's run in 2021/22- if the entire team sucked at 5v5, you best bet it was a systems thing beyond just a personnel thing. And honestly, if 5v5 a player isn't dominating because they're getting matchup checked, the system isn't it, or they're overplaying the puck (ie Petey 2 years ago and Miller last year), they better score on the PP lol

 

[CanucksSayEh]

miller had 31 5v5 points putting him around garland, kuznetsov, martinook, sprong, hayes, konecny and barzal. his defense was absolutely terrible. 8m is barely a fair contract for him and it's all predicated on him being the engine of the canucks power play

... He leads this team in all situations scoring since being here, and he does it regardless of linemates.

No Canuck has been more consistent year to year. At least not forward, Hughes has himself an argument, but Hughes is amaze balls.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

My problem is on the back end of the deal. $8M is fine for what he does right now. But IMO his contract puts us in a win-now situation which I think is incorrect for our overall situation. If we were a 95-point team this year I would have little concern because that’s close enough to tweak.

 

[bossram]

At $8M, you want a guy who can drive play at 5v5. Not someone you're making excuses for as soon as he starts to play poorly. "Oh everyone was bad 5v5, it was Green/Bruce/Aqua/Fin's fault!"

Miller gets his cookies on the PP. That's fine. But it's not worth $8M to be a good PP player and a lazy, defensively deficient 5v5 player.

Watching these playoffs, guys like Karlsson and Marchessault are far more valuable than a JT Miller, and they'll never put up the production he has.

 

[Coffee]

I'd be quite surprised if Allvin only signed a 2.5 year deal. Benning got a 4-year contract when he was hired which is pretty much standard for a new GM.

Alvys first gig as GM.

Term is fine.

 

[EverTheCynic]

I would say he plays the opposite of the right way.

I think the contract will be a problem sooner than 4-5 years. He was not worth that money LAST year, before the contract had even started.

I think the contract is almost certainly going to turn bad before we are in any shape to contend. So its just bad all around.

At least Horvat is younger and a decent 2 way piece when he is not scoring.

Last year Miller was a 1C who scored 99 points. You don't think that's worth 8m a season?

Bo Horvat has never been a 2 way player. There's no nice way to say this, you either don't watch hockey or you don't understand what you're watching when you do.

Bo Horvat was an abysmal defensive liability for pretty much his whole tenure in Van. With only this one contract season seeing him shape up and play somewhat competently.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

You guys are off your rocker if you don't think a ppg player is an 8 mil player in todays game. Miller is a superior player to Horvat in everything except F/O and even there it is close enough. You can argue about contract length, but in the hear and now it is a very good value for what we are paying him now.

We are not paying him as a 100pt player. We are paying him as a ppg player.

Do you actually believe this?

Last year Miller was a 1C who scored 99 points. You don't think that's worth 8m a season?

Bo Horvat has never been a 2 way player. There's no nice way to say this, you either don't watch hockey or you don't understand what you're watching when you do.

Bo Horvat was an abysmal defensive liability for pretty much his whole tenure in Van. With only this one contract season seeing him shape up and play somewhat competently.

If he was a 99 point player sure.

He will never sniff those point totals again. If our management extended him thinking he would, well that is a fireable offense right there.

And he is a defensive liability 5on5. Constructing a team around him, from where we are, with the time constraints his contract alone puts on us, is extremely hard.

Please don't tell me you think Miller is a two way player. Please god. If you are going to throw out shit like "You don't watch or understand hockey.." please god don't embarrass your self by saying Miller is a two way player.


Edit. Also... I obviously mean this past season, not the season before. This past season he was just about worth his cap hit. Not the cap hit he has next year. But Im sure you knew what I meant.

 

[EverTheCynic]

Do you actually believe this?


If he was a 99 point player sure.

He will never sniff those point totals again. If our management extended him thinking he would, well that is a fireable offense right there.

And he is a defensive liability 5on5. Constructing a team around him, from where we are, with the time constraints his contract alone puts on us, is extremely hard.

Please don't tell me you think Miller is a two way player. Please god. If you are going to throw out shit like "You don't watch or understand hockey.." please god don't embarrass your self by saying Miller is a two way player.


Edit. Also... I obviously mean this past season, not the season before. This past season he was just about worth his cap hit. Not the cap hit he has next year. But Im sure you knew what I meant.

Miller is a better defender than Bo ever was.

He gets pissy and hotdogs on the backcheck sometimes. That definitely isn't ok, but that's hardly the whole story of a center's defensive responsibilities.

Miller is pretty good at zone coverage. He reads the play well, gets into lanes. He supports his D down low in the defensive zone. He looks like a normal center out there.

Bo Horvat is a trainwreck who outright refuses to perform even the most basic defensive responsibilities of his position. He refuses to support his D down low, and instead hovers up around the blue line looking for a breakout. Oftentimes he will blow the zone, and Bo will be standing out in the neutral zone all by himself when the puck is in the back of our net. He just straight up refused to play like a center and support his D. Didnt wanna do it.

He is also not very bright and could never figure out positioning in the defensive zone. I've watched with my own eyes Bo Horvat dashing from the high slot out to the point in a straight line chasing a puck that the opposing defenseman had. That sounds bad right? Why is the center dashing out to the point like that?

Oh. But wait. It gets worse. Pearson was already covering that defenseman. One of our wingers was already there covering the play. Bo didn't care. He had dreams. He literally charged in a straight line, pushed Pearson out of the way, created a huge gaping hole which caused a line breakdown an a scoring chance against.

Pearson during the play stopped, turned around and looked at Bo, then literally threw his hands up in the air as if to say "WTF DUDE?"

That is Bo Horvat. Blows the zone. Refuses to perform the most basic defensive responsibilities of his position by supporting his D down low. And terrible zone coverage on a nightly basis, leading to huge gaps opening up and defensive breakdowns. Bo Horvat was singularly responsible for defensive breakdowns on a near shift by shift basis, he was that bad.

Miller isn't Fedorov, but he sure as heck is miles better than Bo Horvat.

To be frank with you, I just can't take any Canucks fan seriously who says Bo Horvat has a good 2 way game. It just entirely discredits everything you say. It's an opinion a person can have only if 1) They dont watch hockey, or 2) They dont understand hockey.

 

[bossram]

Miller is a better defender than Bo ever was.

He gets pissy and hotdogs on the backcheck sometimes. That definitely isn't ok, but that's hardly the whole story of a center's defensive responsibilities.

Miller is pretty good at zone coverage. He reads the play well, gets into lanes. He supports his D down low in the defensive zone. He looks like a normal center out there.

Bo Horvat is a trainwreck who outright refuses to perform even the most basic defensive responsibilities of his position. He refuses to support his D down low, and instead hovers up around the blue line looking for a breakout. Oftentimes he will blow the zone, and Bo will be standing out in the neutral zone all by himself when the puck is in the back of our net. He just straight up refused to play like a center and support his D. Didnt wanna do it.

He is also not very bright and could never figure out positioning in the defensive zone. I've watched with my own eyes Bo Horvat dashing from the high slot out to the point in a straight line chasing a puck that the opposing defenseman had. That sounds bad right? Why is the center dashing out to the point like that?

Oh. But wait. It gets worse. Pearson was already covering that defenseman. One of our wingers was already there covering the play. Bo didn't care. He had dreams. He literally charged in a straight line, pushed Pearson out of the way, created a huge gaping hole which caused a line breakdown an a scoring chance against.

Pearson during the play stopped, turned around and looked at Bo, then literally threw his hands up in the air as if to say "WTF DUDE?"

That is Bo Horvat. Blows the zone. Refuses to perform the most basic defensive responsibilities of his position by supporting his D down low. And terrible zone coverage on a nightly basis, leading to huge gaps opening up and defensive breakdowns. Bo Horvat was singularly responsible for defensive breakdowns on a near shift by shift basis, he was that bad.

Miller isn't Fedorov, but he sure as heck is miles better than Bo Horvat.

To be frank with you, I just can't take any Canucks fan seriously who says Bo Horvat has a good 2 way game. It just entirely discredits everything you say. It's an opinion a person can have only if 1) They dont watch hockey, or 2) They dont understand hockey.

I don't really get your obsession with the comparison to Horvat. Bo is gone. The club has committed to Miller as the franchise piece. Yeah, I agree that Horvat was vastly overrated by casual fans and the MSM as a two-way player...but that doesn't matter in this discussion.

The topic is whether Miller is worth the deal he was given (no). He can be better or worse than Horvat, but that isn't an answer to the question.

And for Miller, having "controller disconnected" moments on the backcheck frequently is about as bad of a defensive habit as it gets.