Management Thread | Who needs draft picks Edition

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seattle is the most facile "example" of a retool/turnaround

it was goaltending all along! please ignore the 19 year old center picked #2 overall and the 15m in free agent depth additions that give them four scoring lines and three strong defensive pairings
 
Hughes Hronek
Gavrikov Severson
Wolanin Burrows/Livingstone

That’s if miracles happen and they can dump Boeser Garland Myers OEL etc.
 
I can't speak to what post, specifically, you've seen with regards to re-tooling around the twins and re-tooling around Pettersson and Hughes, but it's only a false equivalency if the two players are used as the basis for the rebuild/re-tool decision. Nobody is comparing the two sets as equivalent. They are used as examples of the poor rationale GMs use to decide a course of action.

It's actually the lack of understanding about how difficult it will be to re-tool around those key players that's the crux of the issue, not those two players themselves.

I've seen you post a few more points that I wish to address as well:

Timing: The right time to re-tool is determined by, first and foremost, the likelihood of its success. If the re-tool has a 10% chance of being successful, it's horrendous management to try and force it and bank on the exception to the rule. What you're advocating works against probability, not for it.

The 2 year window: What's the template for this 2 year turn around? I remember you mentioning Seattle, which was not a re-tool. Maybe if we ground the discussion in an example, we can better gauge the likelihood from there.

On Picks: You've stated that collecting picks for their own sake is video game based GMing. Or that it's draft pick FOMO. You can't pick players unless you have the picks. And good players on ELCs are the most valuable commodity in the league so... Cost controlled assets are necessary to create a valuable roster.

We disagree on rebuild/re-tool, fine, but to categorize the need to rebuild as "pick FOMO" is beneath you. We can't on the one hand say that to master the cap, we need valuable contracts, and then say people want picks for their own sake, instead of the potential value the good young player adds to the roster.
I am genuinly curious how you came up with 10%
 
Hughes Hronek
Gavrikov Severson
Wolanin Burrows/Livingstone

That’s if miracles happen and they can dump Boeser Garland Myers OEL etc.
I feel like both those names will be easily overpaid in the latter half of their contracts, particularly Severson. I know they are the better/more realistic free agent signings, but I’d be worried about them as long term options.
 
Lay off the poutine?

Nope try again

Yet you are advocating for a 2 year rebuild that no teams has accomplished, ever.
No sir. I'm saying we should have continued to bottom out THIS season.

Ya know what, as much as I love arguing. This is pointless. We dont agree, time to move on.

Let's all hope the retool works
 
Hughes Hronek
Gavrikov Severson
Wolanin Burrows/Livingstone

That’s if miracles happen and they can dump Boeser Garland Myers OEL etc.
Only one out of those can be dumped without too much an issue (ok, maybe Garland to a lesser extent) & he's been playing decently lately (Myers) come July 1. Have to get another NHL GM pretty drunk to take on OEL or Boeser.
 
I can't speak to what post, specifically, you've seen with regards to re-tooling around the twins and re-tooling around Pettersson and Hughes, but it's only a false equivalency if the two players are used as the basis for the rebuild/re-tool decision. Nobody is comparing the two sets as equivalent. They are used as examples of the poor rationale GMs use to decide a course of action.

It's actually the lack of understanding about how difficult it will be to re-tool around those key players that's the crux of the issue, not those two players themselves.

I've seen you post a few more points that I wish to address as well:

Timing: The right time to re-tool is determined by, first and foremost, the likelihood of its success. If the re-tool has a 10% chance of being successful, it's horrendous management to try and force it and bank on the exception to the rule. What you're advocating works against probability, not for it.

The 2 year window: What's the template for this 2 year turn around? I remember you mentioning Seattle, which was not a re-tool. Maybe if we ground the discussion in an example, we can better gauge the likelihood from there.

On Picks: You've stated that collecting picks for their own sake is video game based GMing. Or that it's draft pick FOMO. You can't pick players unless you have the picks. And good players on ELCs are the most valuable commodity in the league so... Cost controlled assets are necessary to create a valuable roster.

We disagree on rebuild/re-tool, fine, but to categorize the need to rebuild as "pick FOMO" is beneath you. We can't on the one hand say that to master the cap, we need valuable contracts, and then say people want picks for their own sake, instead of the potential value the good young player adds to the roster.

No one is denying how hard this is. The flip side is how hard is it to find players as good as Petey and Hughes, and even Demko.
 
While I would far prefer something closer to a rebuild than the obvious retool they're in, I have much more confidence in this management's ability to identify a need and execute a plan to fix it.

Hronek fills their biggest need in a retool. They now have to do the following this summer:

Additions:
Acquire a 3C. ideally a 15g/20a right shot C that can match-up against top lines and kill penalties.
Acquire a top 4 partner for Hronek. Defensive specialist with size, grit and mobility.
Acquire a young RHD that can develop into Hughes partner (Livingstone)
Sign Schenn, Bear, Kravtsov, Burroughs, Brisebois, Wolanin (or equivalents for the last 3)
Sign and add Hoglander to the 23/24 roster
Draft C in top ten 2023 (unless there is an obvious BPA at other positions - e.g if Michkov falls)
In addition to Livingstone, look for European and college FAs to begin rebuilding prospect pool.
Develop, develop, develop (e.g. Re-Petey, Truscott, Johansson, Raty, Klimovich, Bains, Silovs)


Substractions:
OEL - trade with maximum retention and assets (would 50% retention plus Rathbone get it done?). Worst case, buyout.
Trade Myers after bonus
Trade two higher priced wingers with retention on one: Boeser, Garland
Poolman - LTIR
Pearson-trade or LTIR
 
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Leaning hard into this draft does not mean wasting the big three’s prime. Quite the opposite.

The hope of 3 picks in the top 40 of what is supposed to be one of the top drafts in a decade is 2 impact players in your lineup by 25/26. And both on ELC contacts.

Maybe scouting screws it’s up sure. But I actually like the odds of them not screwing up better than us successfully retooling without those ELCs.
 
No sir. I'm saying we should have continued to bottom out THIS season.

Ya know what, as much as I love arguing. This is pointless. We dont agree, time to move on.

Let's all hope the retool works
Well I have always been for continue to bottom out this season. I mean my viewpoint about that has been super consistent and I have never argued against it. I’ve been cheering for the tank every single game.

But you are right, you are arguing with me on something that apparently we do agree with so I don’t know why we need to continue to do that.
 
Well I have always been for continue to bottom out this season. I mean my viewpoint about that has been super consistent and I have never argued against it. I’ve been cheering for the tank every single game.

But you are right, you are arguing with me on something that apparently we do agree with so I don’t know why we need to continue to do that.
I would like to clarify that I was disagreeing with pointing to teams that successfully rebuilt as a reason to retool such as the penguins and tampa. Although maybe i just misunderstood why they were brought up.
 
Leaning hard into this draft does not mean wasting the big three’s prime. Quite the opposite.

The hope of 3 picks in the top 40 of what is supposed to be one of the top drafts in a decade is 2 impact players in your lineup by 25/26. And both on ELC contacts.

Maybe scouting screws it’s up sure. But I actually like the odds of them not screwing up better than us successfully retooling without those ELCs.

The issue the other way is when those picks will be able to help you. Its most likely they take 4 years to contribute, and at that point you are still hoping they turn out like Hronek.

I would not have been against keeping the picks, and while I like the player we got do think we probably paid too much.

I do think it is important to realize if you want this team to move forward (like management does) this is the type of move you have to make.
 
No one is denying how hard this is. The flip side is how hard is it to find players as good as Petey and Hughes, and even Demko.
Drafting in the top 7 is the obvious answer. Its really really hard to find that level of talent anywhere else without giving up more assets than it's worth.
 
Drafting in the top 7 is the obvious answer. Its really really hard to find that level of talent anywhere else without giving up more assets than it's worth.

Drafting top 7 and you are still 50/50 at best. Like go back. How many times do you get a player who is top 5 in their position?
 
Not often. But how many top 5 players on their position were drafted in the top 7?

Id guess a fair amount

I feel I have lost your point now. Can you please explain before we repeat yesterday?

Cause I am not debating where to get them. I am saying if we lose the two we have, that really took us 9 years to get, do we want to try again?
 
I feel I have lost your point now. Can you please explain before we repeat yesterday?

Cause I am not debating where to get them. I am saying if we lose the two we have, that really took us 9 years to get, do we want to try again?
My point is that if the Canucks had focused on aquiring more draft picks and sucking for a few years (rebuild), they'd would've had more top 7 picks and therefore a better chance at winning a cup with Petey and Hughes still around.

Clearly they have chosen not to follow that path and have squandered meaningful years of Petey and Hughes' prime years.

If I could choose what direction they would take today, I would say suck for a few years, get more high draft picks, acquire as many as possible by selling off assets, and building through the draft.

If that leads to Petey and Hughes leaving before those "top 7" picks are ready, so be it.

Retooling, whether it is done by Benning or Allvin, has an extremely low chance of being successful, let alone winning a team a cup.

I want the Canucks to commit to a plan that has proven to be more successful in today's NHL.
 
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People arguing we should draft lotto talent, while simultaneously advocating wasting away our early prime aged, own drafted lotto talent.

Also haven't seen anyone against keeping our current highest pick.
 
I understand the Hronek trade. Still think they paid too much (shouldn't have been a 2nd, the guy is injured on top of only having one year remaining) but I think Yzerman moved off him not because he's a bad player but because Yzerman was ruthlessly moving contracts and collecting futures. And timing.

But if they trade our own first for ANYTHING this off-season, it will be a total disaster.
 
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People arguing we should draft lotto talent, while simultaneously advocating wasting away our early prime aged, own drafted lotto talent.

Also haven't seen anyone against keeping our current highest pick.
I think the argument is to lean into this year's draft lotto. so if we're wasting any primes, it's the next month of Petey, Demko's and Hughe's 'prime'

But the team isn't even willing to do that to ensure a stronger future foundation.
 
I think the argument is to lean into this year's draft lotto. so if we're wasting any primes, it's the next month of Petey, Demko's and Hughe's 'prime'

But the team isn't even willing to do that to ensure a stronger future foundation.
What the hell do you tell tgem to lose?

Have you seen the 6 dmen? Dries is playing regular shifts

Tell demko he cant play?
 
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What the hell do you tell tgem to lose?

Have you seen the 6 dmen? Dries is playing regular shifts

Tell demko he cant play?

You could stop playing quinn hughes 30 min a night?

and that's only sort of an exaggeration. Pettersson and MIller are eating up huge minutes as well. Spread the wealth and the team might lose more then it wins.

Players are going to try, that's undeniable. Seems to me that Tocchet kind of knows it doesn't matter how many wins or losses the team ends up with, so if mgmt leans on him to skewer things the right way, then so be it.
 
My point is that if the Canucks had focused on aquiring more draft picks and sucking for a few years (rebuild), they'd would've had more top 7 picks and therefore a better chance at winning a cup with Petey and Hughes still around.

Clearly they have chosen not to follow that path and have squandered meaningful years of Petey and Hughes' prime years.

If I could choose what direction they would take today, I would say suck for a few years, get more high draft picks, acquire as many as possible by selling off assets, and building through the draft.

If that leads to Petey and Hughes leaving before those "top 7" picks are ready, so be it.

Retooling, whether it is done by Benning or Allvin, has an extremely low chance of being successful, let alone winning a team a cup.

I want the Canucks to commit to a plan that has proven to be more successful in today's NHL.

Look at the past few cup winning teams, all have retooled.

Pens retooled with JR no less
Caps retooled
Blues retooled
Bolts retooled
Avs retooled

Yes they all drafted a strong few players, then reowrked it until it finally worked.
 
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