Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[arttk]

it has nothing to do with what type of 'good' players you target to fill out your roster. what players you get depends on what players are available. if you wait for the perfect player to come along you'll never actually fill out a roster

what matters is that when players that you think could help you come available you are in a situation to act on it and add them to your team. vancouver just aren't. even if you ignore all the inefficient money they are unable to move they have basically no young players other teams covet and their draft pick count is up one first either this year or next, one 4th this year and down one second next year and one 5th this year

if a player like marino is available at the draft do vancouver have the extra pieces to give up to get him? can they fit him in their cap? how are they going to afford a 6m/yr contract for a top 4 defender to replace myers? who fills the hole at center on the third line? how do they address their lack of players who can kill penalties if they have nothing to give up to get those players?

it's pure fantasy to think you can just out scout the rest of the league and find anthony duclair, mason marchement, carter verhaeghe, gustav forsling and brandon montour all at exactly the right time and all under the noses of the other 31 teams in the league

Right we are currently not at the stage where we can take advantage of those opportunities but at the same time I don't really see the need to rebuild in order to be able to take advantage of those opportunities.

Like I think we are in agreement that there are a lot of players that just needs to go and I think even management is working on that as well. Garland, Myers, Boeser, OEL and the LTIR bunch. So regarding capspace, I think once we get rid of those players, we will have the cap to take advantage.

In terms of having the asset to make those moves, well I think there should be some asset coming back for SOME of those players. The reason why I don't think we need to rebuild is because I am still optimistic and also why I advocate for wait and see, that we will get more assets than what we anticipate at the start of the season. We got a 1st, Beauvillier and Raty for Bo, great. We will get something back for Schenn it seems and maybe we'll make another trade or two before the TDL. I think there are enough high quality assets there to really restock which would enable us to make more trades to fill holes.

I think for every pick that we nail, it fills a hole which allows us to take a pick and make that available to trade. Like for example, yeah trade 2 2nds for a D kinda sucks but if we nailed on a bunch of picks, then we can afford to take those hits. Fill a roster spot with a FA (That finnish D) and now you have one less trade you need to make.

I don't know, i just don't feel there is a drastic need to really burn this shit down and rebuild from scratch.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

I can only imagine that Benning supporters only continued to support him for 8 years because they viewed changing their opinion as a sign of weakness/hit to their ego, which is an absurd and sad way of living your life.

Remember when the thread announcing Benning getting fired was locked within like a week or two? Talk about being overly sensitive.

Or folks whining--at great length--on how we need to "get over" Benning being fired after like...2 weeks?

f*** that, I had to endure his idiocy for 8 years.

 

[racerjoe]

it has nothing to do with what type of 'good' players you target to fill out your roster. what players you get depends on what players are available. if you wait for the perfect player to come along you'll never actually fill out a roster

what matters is that when players that you think could help you come available you are in a situation to act on it and add them to your team. vancouver just aren't. even if you ignore all the inefficient money they are unable to move they have basically no young players other teams covet and their draft pick count is up one first either this year or next, one 4th this year and down one second next year and one 5th this year

if a player like marino is available at the draft do vancouver have the extra pieces to give up to get him? can they fit him in their cap? how are they going to afford a 6m/yr contract for a top 4 defender to replace myers? who fills the hole at center on the third line? how do they address their lack of players who can kill penalties if they have nothing to give up to get those players?

it's pure fantasy to think you can just out scout the rest of the league and find anthony duclair, mason marchement, carter verhaeghe, gustav forsling and brandon montour all at exactly the right time and all under the noses of the other 31 teams in the league

I can pretty much agree with this.

I think if we could build around Petey, and Hughes great.

I agree you need to have ammo to get guys like Marino that we clearly didn't have this past off season.

I think what this is or how I would describe it is much more the retool word. If we need to define it, vs a rebuild. If we are trying to define it.

As much as I can agree with the fact if we are trying to compete we should keep both Bo and Miller, I think it proved impossible. I think we ended up keeping the better options now that we know all of the facts. I would much rather have JT at 8, than Bo at 8.5. I thought Bo should come in at much less than Miller, and at this time last year would have been thinking the opposite.

This team will be made or broken with this off season. Change doesn't need to be complete by this offseason, but it definitely needs to be set up. This is all that some of us have been saying. I get the people arguing against waiting and seeing, but with a flat cap we can see how little is being done around the league.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Or folks whining--at great length--on how we need to "get over" Benning being fired after like...2 weeks?

f*** that, I had to endure his idiocy for 8 years.

…but Gillis

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

I just don’t get how he (or the rest of the family) haven’t learned from the mountain of mistakes yet?

Like you’ve been unsuccessfully trying to retool for a decade now, spending to the cap, mortgaging the future, and what do you have to show for it? A 1st round exit due to one last hurrah from the Sedin core and a fake 2nd round playoff run (as per the current GM), now with a bleak outlook on the future in terms of our prospect pool and cap flexibility. Yet he continues to employ the same stupid strategy. Reminds me of Charlie Brown and the football. Frankie will never learn and this team will never be competitive under him unless something significant changes.

Non-serious franchise just pissing into the wind.

The Vancouver Canucks are not trying to win the Stanley Cup.

 

[DFAC]

Why… just why?
Keep him away from this mess… management preaching patience yet they do stuff like this. It really feels like nothing has changed and its the Benning regime all over again

Alvin and Rutherford are all talk. Say one thing and go do another. This team is really really hard to cheer for right now

 

[Baby Pettersson]

Less Politics more hockey. This is a hockey forum after all. And let's all try and be friends. It's the day of love y'all!

 

[LordBacon]

Less Politics more hockey. This is a hockey forum after all. And let's all try and be friends. It's the day of love y'all!

Easy for you to say.
I have no girlfriend to celebrate with.
All I have is my wife.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Oh wait, that’s not what you are arguing for though, you want draft picks, not younger unproven players

You invent what the other poster means and then argue that point you have invented instead of what the poster actually posted.

Can you stop doing that, please.

 

[Quinntessential]

Things management should be doing till the end of season

1. Shelf Demko for the rest of the year, make sure our goalies stay below .900 save %.
2. Shelf any good player with a nagging injury for the rest of the year
3. Give prime offensive minutes and PP time to players we want to trade to pump up their value
4. Try to get another first rounder or two.

1 and 2 so we can pick in the top 5. 3 and 4 so we can trade up to 1st overall.

 

[HelloCookie]

I find it extremely unlikely that any team would even consider trading Bedard pick seriously. When was the previous 1st overall trade even? Fleury in '03?

And imo shelving key players who aren't actually injured and are 100% is hurting the team more than playing them and risking getting couple extra points at 55 game mark. If they have something nagging, absolutely aim for getting them fully healed to have a full summer of preparation for the next season.

 

[mriswith]

The 1st overall pick has more value than McDavid so whatever package you want to trade to acquire Bedard is the package you'd pay for McDavid+

That doesn't mean Bedard is or will be better than McDavid, that's pretty unlikely, but value takes into account contract status and age.

No one will trade first overall this year, it's impossible to offer enough value.

 

[Jyrki21]

Or folks whining--at great length--on how we need to "get over" Benning being fired after like...2 weeks?

f*** that, I had to endure his idiocy for 8 years.

Particularly as it directly affects why the team has a ceiling of mediocrity for the next little while as well. His mismanagement is still extremely relevant.

To the credit of this board, though, there were a lot of people who flipped within the first four years or so. I was still incredulous from day one that anyone could see him as anything but a buffoon, but this board was pretty close to unanimous well before the general fanbase.

 

[arttk]

You invent what the other poster means and then argue that point you have invented instead of what the poster actually posted.

Can you stop doing that, please.

lol I copy and pasted this directly from a link you shared.

"Rebuilding" a team means taking a group of veteran, but (mostly) mediocre players, and trading them for younger, unproven players”

Are you saying that when the author wrote “trading them for younger, unproven players”. He/she didn’t actually mean that?

Man Benning broke you so hard it’s not even funny. Stop the intellectual dishonesty.

 

[andora]

I wondered how long the shine from the horvat trade would last.. seems like it has worn off.

I think realistically the deadline needs to produce small moves...

If schenn is good with it move him for the draft pick(s)
Move dermott if you can with retention possibly
Look to see if you can be the third team in deals to help with retention

If anything else comes up well .. that is great but so many of our players are more likely offseason moves.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Particularly as it directly affects why the team has a ceiling of mediocrity for the next little while as well. His mismanagement is still extremely relevant.

To the credit of this board, though, there were a lot of people who flipped within the first four years or so. I was still incredulous from day one that anyone could see him as anything but a buffoon, but this board was pretty close to unanimous well before the general fanbase.

Yeah. It's weird how people can't grasp that there's some overlap between regimes.

Or rather, they do, but they apply it inconsistently. Gillis was a beneficiary of Nonis! Benning had nothing and built everything from scratch (lollllllllll)!

It's like they think it's like hitting a reset button on your computer or console and everything just starts fresh when a new GM is installed. Just...so...weird....

How....................... some...................... people.....................................................................................thought about things.

(Excessive ellipses totally not referencing anyone in particular. Especially not someone who has suddenly become hypercritical of management.)

 

[Orr4Norris]

The 1st overall pick has more value than McDavid so whatever package you want to trade to acquire Bedard is the package you'd pay for McDavid+

That doesn't mean Bedard is or will be better than McDavid, that's pretty unlikely, but value takes into account contract status and age.

No one will trade first overall this year, it's impossible to offer enough value.

No owner will sign off on trading Bedard. There is no package that would get it done. He’d have to pull a Lindros…and he won’t.

 

[Hit the post]

Yeah. It's weird how people can't grasp that there's some overlap between regimes.

Or rather, they do, but they apply it inconsistently. Gillis was a beneficiary of Nonis! Benning had nothing and built everything from scratch (lollllllllll)!

It's like they think it's like hitting a reset button on your computer or console and everything just starts fresh when a new GM is installed. Just...so...weird....

How....................... some...................... people.....................................................................................thought about things.

(Excessive ellipses totally not referencing anyone in particular. Especially not someone who has suddenly become hypercritical of management.)

They fail to see the fact that while Benning might've been dealt a bad hand by Gilligan, Jethro Bodine played that hand like sh*t. Heck there's a prominant poster on CDC that still feels Giilis wrecked the franchise for a decade unlike Jethro Bodine.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

lol I copy and pasted this directly from a link you shared.

"Rebuilding" a team means taking a group of veteran, but (mostly) mediocre players, and trading them for younger, unproven players”

Are you saying that when the author wrote “trading them for younger, unproven players”. He/she didn’t actually mean that?

Man Benning broke you so hard it’s not even funny. Stop the intellectual dishonesty.

Here are 5 quotes from that site, that you skipped because they didn't fit your narrative.

1.

"Expensive free agents are avoided."

2.

"Overall team salary tends to be low."

3.

"It also is a "signal" to fans to not expect the team to compete and win; GMs or other team executives often want to make sure it's clear they're not trying to win in the short term, because otherwise their jobs may be at stake. "

4.

"A losing team is one that is "stuck" with mediocre players."

5.

"Some teams avoid "rebuild" and instead "refresh" or "retool". The Chicago White Sox are a good example of this: they went through several "retools" since 2005, where the team seemed to have fallen apart and the GM decided to be aggressive in the trade/free agent market rather than a full rebuild. This is often the case in mid-market teams, where an extended losing period might cost too many fans (in particular in a two-team market like Chicago, where the Cubs have the better presence, and so the White Sox need to pretend at least to be competitive). It's often hard to do this for long periods of time, unless you have nearly unlimited salaries available, because constant retooling means you never lose enough games to get high draft picks."

Dont worry. I'll be patient and work with you here so we can catch you up to the concept.

 

[Nucker101]

There’s people out there who believe accidentally finishing low in the standings = rebuild

No doing that = pre-McDavid joke of the league Edmonton Oilers

That’s what this franchise is right now

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

There’s people out there who believe accidentally finishing low in the standings = rebuild

No doing that = pre-McDavid joke of the league Edmonton Oilers

That’s what this franchise is right now

Genuinely head-scratching. I've come across anti-rebuilders who said Florida's rebuild took 20 years.

Insane they think simply being bad and having bad management is the same thing.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Genuinely head-scratching. I've come across anti-rebuilders who said Florida's rebuild took 20 years.

Insane they think simply being bad and having bad management is the same thing.

With how horribly this season has gone they are left with arguing semantics and trying to reinvent what the terms rebuild / retool mean. Or concentrating on just one flaw on the team that is ruining everything, in this case, goaltending.

Would be so much easier to just say "Yeah ok I got this wrong" and move on.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

They fail to see the fact that while Benning might've been dealt a bad hand by Gilligan, Jethro Bodine played that hand like sh*t. Heck there's a prominant poster on CDC that still feels Giilis wrecked the franchise for a decade unlike Jethro Bodine.

I don't think Gilligan (or the Skipper or even the Professor) dealt Benning a bad hand.

You look at what was kicking around in terms of usable assets and there were things there. It wasn't Gillis' fault that Benning turned things like Nick Bonino into garbage returns. Or that Benning thought he could right the ship "in a hurry" and doubled-down on the existing core (after at least 2 notable hockey folks--Gillis and Torts--basically stated that the team needed to rebuild.)

We've been seeing a bit of a repeat here with Allvin (reupping on Miller, fence-sitting with Boudreau, etc.) although I would argue that any arguments about Benning leaving him with nothing are far more appropriate here than they were with Benning, though I will freely admit to being incredibly prejudiced towards Benning (although I will also argue I can make a very compelling argument, too.)

It goes back to what you were saying: execution. Yeah, you might get a crap hand, but the way you play it also matters.

And that's all without addressing Frankie Aqua's potential meddling.

 

[Brookbank]

Particularly as it directly affects why the team has a ceiling of mediocrity for the next little while as well. His mismanagement is still extremely relevant.

To the credit of this board, though, there were a lot of people who flipped within the first four years or so. I was still incredulous from day one that anyone could see him as anything but a buffoon, but this board was pretty close to unanimous well before the general fanbase.

And that buffoon and his buffoon friend in Peter Chiarelli , put together a team that won the cup. Like monkeys on typewriters , coming up with Shakespeare level poetry. Which just goes to show, that glory hunting by hiring managers who happen to have won the cup is a futile exercise. But this is exactly what Aquilini did again. He hired Rutherford because he seen the shiny rings on his fingers.

 

[Ninjadude]

With a retool or whatever you want to call it, I have a hard time seeing this team in 3-5 years competing for the cup. Sure, they might get into the playoffs, but not as legitimate contenders.

I would like to see the NYR model of a rebuild (SCORCHED EARTH BABY!) and selling as much as possible for futures. Doesnt mean we need to trade EP or QH right away, but you have to put them into the equation as well. However with the OEL and now the JTM deal, that makes it very difficult to accomplish since they will be extremely difficult to trade....yet we will need some players to wear a jersey and sit on the bench.

We have been doing this "retool" since Benning got here and it clearly isnt working. Im okay with trading our assets, signing new ones, trading those at the deadline (rinse and repeat)...all to get more draft picks!