Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition

[Fatass]

When a Norris Trophy winner, an all star elite forward, and a first pairing D man literally fall in your lap (because New York)...and you win the lottery twice..That is just called insane luck..Citing that as a rebuild 'model' is absurd.

Having said that, they've drafted some good players in Miller, Schneider..and made some really good trades.

Yup. The Rangers had four terrible first rounders in a row. But, because it’s New York, they were able to attract FOx and Panarin. And that has covered for their terrible draft record in round one.

 

[me2]

Yup. The Rangers had four terrible first rounders in a row. But, because it’s New York, they were able to attract FOx and Panarin. And that has covered for their terrible draft record in round one.

Just imagine the insane powerhouse they'd be if they didn't whiff on those picks.

 

[bandwagonesque]

It's funny how misconstrued the Rangers continue to be, by the usual suspects.

What are you disagreeing with here?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Actually I skipped it because we were debating whether you understand what a rebuild is, not what a rebuilding team should do when they are rebuilding.

Oh we are debating that are we?

Avoiding expensive free agents is what you do when you are in a rebuild, it's not the definition of a rebuild. Ditto with keeping salary low, actually the funny part is that the leafs didn't keep the salary low when they were rebuilding since they were using cap to get more picks.

This is to try to help you see what rebuild entails. It is more than have draft pick, get good player, win championship.

Signaling to fans that the team is going to suck is also the consequence of deciding to do a rebuild.

This is to lower the expectations of the public discourse. And to, quite simply, try to maintain as much asses in the seats as possible.

A losing team is one that is stuck with mediocre players, lol. And how is that related to what we were talking about? That can be a causation of the need of a rebuild but once again, it's not defining what a rebuild is.

Im glad you asked.

Weve been retooling for a decade now and this is us. We are stuck with a roster full of inefficient contracts.


Ask away if you still have some questions and Ill be glad to answer them.

 

[mriswith]

Just imagine the insane powerhouse they'd be if they didn't whiff on those picks.

Must be nice operating with a strategy that has that kind of margin for error and can still work out really well.

 

[quat]

Me: we need to change like at min 1/3rd of the team by next season

You guys: sounds like you think we should be going all in with the same roster

Sounds like you can’t comprehend shit

Yes, that's it. We're stupid.

With that as a basis of agreement, maybe you can ease up painting everyone who doesn't find your pedantic, somewhat reasonable takes that engaging. It's not that big a deal. Personally, I'm trying to let go of all my expectations and see if I can still find some level of enjoyment following this putrid team.

It's far from unreasonable to have an opinion that this whole mess needs to be thrown into the trash and started again. Things are so ruined that it's possible to entertain the notion that trading everyone isn't entirely incongruent with trying to make something out of the few good players that populate the roster.

I don't know which of the several directions being posted here are best, but they're interesting to rea. A little levity goes a long way these days, so lighten up Francis.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

What are you disagreeing with here?

Having cap space to sign a free agent and not be hamstrung with garbage contracts, for starters.

Being a desirable location for players, for another. Vancouver used to fit that bill (yet, strangely, we have never been able to have a star player 'fall into our lap.' i.e., Sakic, Niedermayer, Weber, and other BC born players.)

Chalking it up to being solely blind, dumb luck is ridiculous. You could flip the script and say that having a 1OA not pan out in the modern NHL is incredible bad luck, but it doesn't serve the narrative that a measured approach is worse than consulting chicken entrails (or whatever the f*** it is that was Jim Benning's management style)

The Rangers' process (amassing assets, constructing a cap structure that wasn't inspired by a drunken sailor on shore leave so they'd have flexibility to sign good players, having competent management, etc.) was fine. That not literally ever single thing didn't align perfectly isn't an indictment of the process and the fact that folks still look down on teams going about things the right way (LA is the other big one) while championing our former idiot GM is ridiculous.

 

[arttk]

Yes, that's it. We're stupid.

It’s not your fault

Oh we are debating that are we?

Not really considering you are just posting random shit without thinking about it.

 

[Nucker101]

Me: we need to change like at min 1/3rd of the team by next season

You guys: sounds like you think we should be going all in with the same roster

Sounds like you can’t comprehend shit

You: lets get rid of all of the players who aren't good and/or overpaid and find some good ones!

Us: That's pretty hard to do

 

[arttk]

You: lets get rid of all of the players who aren't good and/or overpaid and find some good ones!

Us: That's pretty hard to do

I never said it was easy and I never said they could do it.

 

[Nucker101]

I never said it was easy and I never said they could do it.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Chalking it up to being solely blind, dumb luck is ridiculous. You could flip the script and say that having a 1OA not pan out in the modern NHL is incredible bad luck, but it doesn't serve the narrative that a measured approach is worse than consulting chicken entrails (or whatever the f*** it is that was Jim Benning's management style)

No one said any of this, as far as I know.

The Rangers' process (amassing assets, constructing a cap structure that wasn't inspired by a drunken sailor on shore leave so they'd have flexibility to sign good players, having competent management, etc.) was fine. That not literally ever single thing didn't align perfectly isn't an indictment of the process and the fact that folks still look down on teams going about things the right way (LA is the other big one) while championing our former idiot GM is ridiculous.

No one's saying amassing assets and building a responsible cap structure can't work or isn't generally better than most other approaches. They're saying this probably isn't an example of it working particularly well because the Rangers had the unprecedented luck of a Norris-calibre defenceman on an ELC demand to be traded to them and no one else. This is not necessarily at the same time a statement that the failures of their high draft picks are their responsibility.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Not really considering you are just posting random shit without thinking about it.

Lets try and work this out.

Am I wrong in saying you have changed your mind quite drasticly on what the team should do moving forward but still want to call it retooling?

 

[arttk]

You do realize rebuilds are even harder. You think rebuilding teams spends 5-9 years doing it because it’s fun?

Lets try and work this out.

Am I wrong in saying you have changed your mind quite drasticly on what the team should do moving forward but still want to call it retooling?

Yeah you are wrong lol

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Yeah you are wrong lol

Oh.

So you still think the team is 1-2 years away from contending?

 

[M2Beezy]

To the dear fans that have been watching the Canucks for 10+ years,

I kindly ask the following and even just one question answered is appreciated greatly.


What was the 2011 teams strengths and weaknesses?


Is Petterssons best handpicked 3-5 games of the year as good as Peak Kesler ? (2011 vs Preds?)


Is this current Canucks team, with prime Luongo, a playoff team?

BONUS
Would you trade Hughes + 2023 3rd overall pick for Leon Draisaitl ?

As a neutral fan who frequents MANY teams boards on this forum i feel i can answer this coffee man:

Pettersson is better than Kessler but like some others who know better said what Kess did against the Preds in 2011 was pretty dominant

Current team with Luongo is NOT a playoff team

No Hughes and 3rd overall for Drai

I hope you have found this useful Coffee Man

 

[PuckMunchkin]

As a neutral fan who frequents MANY teams boards on this forum i feel i can answer this coffee man:

Pettersson is better than Kessler but like some others who know better said what Kess did against the Preds in 2011 was pretty dominant

Current team with Luongo is NOT a playoff team

I think they might be a playoff team.

Prime Luongo was insane, and was not a systems goalie.

NHL is so silly, never giving him a Vezina.

No Hughes and 3rd overall for Drai

I hope you have found this useful Coffee Man

 

[arttk]

Oh.

So you still think the team is 1-2 years away from contending?

No, I never said they were 1-2 years away from contending. I said they were 1-2 years away from being a playoff team.

For the record, I don’t believe they need to go all in to become a playoff ream as well.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

No, I never said they were 1-2 years away from contending. I said they were 1-2 years away from being a playoff team.

For the record, I don’t believe they need to go all in to become a playoff ream as well.

Oh.


So that gives us what... a 1 year window with Demko and Hughes signed to contend?

Also. If they are not making playoffs next year or the year after you are going to admit you had it wrong?

 

[arttk]

Oh.


So that gives us what... a 1 year window with Demko and Hughes signed to contend?

Also. If they are not making playoffs next year or the year after you are going to admit you had it wrong?

You know the cap should be in the 95M range at that point that you can resign them… and regarding goalies, we should be using the next 3-4 years drafting and developing the next starter and trading Demko before his deal ends, I am not a believer in paying Goalies long contract and big money into their 30’s.

You seem to fixate on being right/wrong over the team improving. I’ve always said by next year they need to be around wildcard spot, (without going all in) to show progress. If we are not even at that level next year then this management group has failed hard. Hell they should be at that level just by getting rid of OEL and Myers and getting a LD and RD that can do nothing else but defend and PK.

I’ve consistently said I’ll look at them by the off-season because at that point we should be able to look at the roster and see if it’s even wild card quality.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

You know the cap should be in the 95M range at that point that you can resign them… and regarding goalies, we should be using the next 3-4 years drafting and developing the next starter and trading Demko before his deal ends, I am not a believer in paying Goalies long contract and big money into their 30’s.

You seem to fixate on being right/wrong over the team improving. I’ve always said by next year they need to be around wildcard spot, (without going all in) to show progress. If we are not even at that level next year then this management group has failed hard. Hell they should be at that level just by getting rid of OEL and Myers and getting a LD and RD that can do nothing else but defend and PK.

I’ve consistently said I’ll look at them by the off-season because at that point we should be able to look at the roster and see if it’s even wild card quality.

That I disagree with.

They took on a really insanely hard task.

I hope these competent people are around to implement the rebuild once we get there.

There is a Tallon lurking in the shadows.

 

[arttk]

That I disagree with.

They took on a really insanely hard task.

I hope these competent people are around to implement the rebuild once we get there.

There is a Tallon lurking in the shadows.

Well the way I see it is if you can get PK to league average and GA down, we will be around wildcard. That’s what the numbers tells us.

So the question is if we buyout OEL and give Myers away after his bonus is paid, how hard is it to replace them with zero offense pure D, PK able D? I imagine it wouldn’t be that hard of expensive. Get another PK guy to replace Schenn and Dermott. Then now you have at least 4/6 on the back that can PK. Get a 3C and 3W that are fast and can PK. You can do all that without spending that much asset and cap. This team should be around the wildcard spot.

Now you have a more defensive base to build from, the year after next, you try to upgrade on one or two of those D aggressively. Also at that point, the top pick from this year should be doing something and the team should be getting some support from Raty coming in as well. That team should be playoff level.

None of this unrealistic and doable within the cap constraint.

 

[rypper]

The Rangers might have have fallen into some luck, but they still had to be in a position to be able to make those moves. That didn't happen by accident. Having the picks on hand to facilitate trades, having extra picks to trade down to get players they wanted, without going a round not making a pick. Something Canucks management could never quite grasp.

(not to mention cap space.)

 

[logan5]

All of our dead cap comes off the books after this season> I think we have to bite the bullet and buy out OEL after this season. Some serious savings next season, and pretty good savings the next season after that. It goes to 2031 but the last 4 years are a very manageable 2.1, and the cap should start rising significantly so inflation will make those numbers even smaller.

That cap savings over the next 2 years could get us a pretty good defenceman - hopefully a right D to play with Hughes.

Tyler Myers only has 1 year to go, and there actually seems to be some interest in him, so if we can unload him that would be a total of over 13 million $ we could spend on upgrading the D.

Cap Hit Calculations​

SEASON	INITIAL BASE SALARY	INITIAL CAP HIT	SIGNING BONUS	BUYOUT COST	POST-BUYOUT EARNINGS	SAVINGS	CAP HIT ( VAN)	CAP HIT ( ARI)
2023-24	$10,500,000	$8,250,000	$0	$2,416,667	$2,416,667	$8,083,333	$146,667	$20,000
2024-25	$8,000,000	$8,250,000	$0	$2,416,667	$2,416,667	$5,583,333	$2,346,667	$320,000
2025-26	$5,250,000	$8,250,000	$0	$2,416,667	$2,416,667	$2,833,333	$4,766,667	$650,000
2026-27	$5,250,000	$8,250,000	$0	$2,416,667	$2,416,667	$2,833,333	$4,766,667	$650,000
2027-28	$0	$0	$0	$2,416,667	$2,416,667	-$2,416,667	$2,126,667	$290,000
2028-29	$0	$0	$0	$2,416,667	$2,416,667	-$2,416,667	$2,126,667	$290,000
2029-30	$0	$0	$0	$2,416,667	$2,416,667	-$2,416,667	$2,126,667	$290,000
2030-31	$0	$0	$0	$2,416,667	$2,416,667	-$2,416,667	$2,126,667	$290,000

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Well the way I see it is if you can get PK to league average and GA down, we will be around wildcard. That’s what the numbers tells us.

So the question is if we buyout OEL and give Myers away after his bonus is paid, how hard is it to replace them with zero offense pure D, PK able D? I imagine it wouldn’t be that hard of expensive. Get another PK guy to replace Schenn and Dermott. Then now you have at least 4/6 on the back that can PK. Get a 3C and 3W that are fast and can PK. You can do all that without spending that much asset and cap. This team should be around the wildcard spot.

Now you have a more defensive base to build from, the year after next, you try to upgrade on one or two of those D aggressively. Also at that point, the top pick from this year should be doing something and the team should be getting some support from Raty coming in as well. That team should be playoff level.

None of this unrealistic and doable within the cap constraint.

Its doable if the goal is wildcard.

Its really hard to accomplish if you intend to keep improving in to a top contender.