Pastor Of Muppetz
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Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition
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AwesomeInTheory
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- Aug 21, 2015
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You haven’t really been following Pastor’s bullshit.
Again, a first overall not panning out in the modern NHL is extremely unlucky. But we’re only going to focus on the “good” luck that happened because it helps frame an argument that the Rangers approach didn’t work (which is where Pastor’s continued running down of the Rangers comes from.)
The Canucks had three Calder finalists (such wow, much excite) yet couldn’t capitalize and are still a stinker team. Isn’t three Calder finalists “unprecedented”, too? That’s just luck, right?
Dismissing things due to “luck” is incredibly reductionist and ridiculously simplistic. There are other factors both with the Rangers and the Canucks. But some folks have made compelling arguments backed up by a body of evidence seen with other clubs while others take a surface level look and write it off as being a beneficiary of “luck.”
(You’ll note Pastor never bothers to respond to folks who explain their rationale, despite claiming that’s he will do that. Don’t believe me? Literally look up at the response before mine.)
Frankie Blueberries
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It’s funny because, even if you removed Fox from NYR’s defence, they likely still have an average or even above-average defence because of solid drafting/asset management in Miller, Lindgren, Trouba, Schneider, etc. Just wait until Fox gets injured; I’m sure they will do just fine.
And lest we forget, the Canucks had a golden opportunity to acquire a local, potential top pairing defenceman in Theodore. Benning appeared to have preferred Sbisa. Fart noises ensued
Reverend Mayhem
Tell me all your thoughts on God
The Rangers were well positioned to have excess assets to deal for Fox as well as having the cap space/roster flexibility to pay 2 players almost $20m of their cap.
They did that without luck. They made their own breaks.
Drafting some Virtanen’s hasn’t crippled them. Their “rebuild” wasn’t about their top picks anyways.
Credulous used the word pivot the other day. I liked it. The Rangers set themselves up for a pivot to contention.
They did that without luck. They made their own breaks.
Drafting some Virtanen’s hasn’t crippled them. Their “rebuild” wasn’t about their top picks anyways.
Credulous used the word pivot the other day. I liked it. The Rangers set themselves up for a pivot to contention.
bandwagonesque
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This is the whole point. The Rangers' amassing of assets in the typical way available to all teams probably wouldn't have worked if a superstar set to make a negligible salary for three years hadn't forced a trade to them. If I scrimped and saved all my life and became fairly comfortable then found a suitcase with a million dollars in it, I'm not an example of how anyone can become a millionaire by scrimping and saving. That doesn't mean being financially responsible is a bad idea, just that it I couldn't have achieved my current position just by being financially responsible and am therefore not a good example of what can typically be achieved that way.
Frankie Blueberries
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The NYR would be a good team even without Fox. Maybe not a Cup contender (or at least, currently), but likely still a playoff team. They have a deep roster with a Vezina goalie. Largely because of their rebuild.
bandwagonesque
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Frankie Blueberries
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Then why did you write that their strategy wouldn’t have worked for other teams if they didn’t acquire a Fox-caliber defenceman?
You take the current NYR, subtract Fox and his cap hit, and employ a competent GM, and they ought to be a contender within a few years imo.
bandwagonesque
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Because it wouldn't have worked for the Rangers. I think they'd be a middle of the pack team without Fox.
Leaving aside that this statement is speculative, it has nothing to do with the conversation we're having. I'm not disputing that they might be good in a few years but that their current roster and record are examples of what can be achieved with a rebuild.
Frankie Blueberries
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Funny how the first point is speculative as well.
I think, given we both have agreed that NYR would likely still be a playoff team without Fox, then that would be a “win” in this market; so their approach seems desirable/successful imo.
bandwagonesque
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I agree. I'm just saying the "look how great the Rangers are doing with their rebuild" statements are overlooking quite a bit. And on the board in general (possibly not by AwesomeInTheory, I can't remember), the argument that different kinds of luck are interchangeable was only taken up after abandoning way worse arguments, e.g., that the Rangers were somehow uniquely positioned asset and salary wise to trade for Fox, who was on an ELC and acquired for 2nd and 3rd round picks.
Adam Fox is on $9.5m/year.
The team not only was attractive to the player, they had assets to trade for him, and the ability to extend him.
It’s absolutely wild this is just chalked up to luck.
It’s even more wild people are talking about him like he’s currently on his ELC.
The purpose of a rebuild is to pivot to a contention window and maintain it. New York’s plan looks to be yielding the results of that plan.
The team not only was attractive to the player, they had assets to trade for him, and the ability to extend him.
It’s absolutely wild this is just chalked up to luck.
It’s even more wild people are talking about him like he’s currently on his ELC.
The purpose of a rebuild is to pivot to a contention window and maintain it. New York’s plan looks to be yielding the results of that plan.
Frankie Blueberries
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I think the main point is that traditional approaches to rebuilds generally work once competent management is in place. They aren’t always executed the same way (usually a different emphasis is placed on drafting, trading, and free agency), but the general idea of accumulating picks/prospects and freeing up cap space until the team is ready to compete is fairly uniform.
Teams that have done this (albeit not perfectly, but eventually seemed to have succeeded with proper management) were previously Washington, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Chicago, and to a lesser extent, LA.
Current teams include Colorado, New Jersey, Edmonton, LA, Toronto. And then you have some teams that will likely be competitive in the next few years based on them being in the somewhat early stages of a proper rebuild like Montreal, Chicago, Detroit (sooner though), Ottawa, and Buffalo.
Teams that have done this (albeit not perfectly, but eventually seemed to have succeeded with proper management) were previously Washington, Pittsburgh, Tampa Bay, Chicago, and to a lesser extent, LA.
Current teams include Colorado, New Jersey, Edmonton, LA, Toronto. And then you have some teams that will likely be competitive in the next few years based on them being in the somewhat early stages of a proper rebuild like Montreal, Chicago, Detroit (sooner though), Ottawa, and Buffalo.
BimJenning
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This. It's very similar to the situation the Canucks had with Gillis coming in, and everyone saying he had Hamhuis fall in his lap, without people realizing that a) he doesn't sign here cheap if we're a dumpster fire like we are now, and b) it doesn't matter if we have no cap space to sign him here, regardless if he wants to play here or not. That doesn't mention the other moves that both the Canucks and Rangers could make because of having cap space and assets like picks and prospects, and the Rangers have arguably made worse decisions under Drury (Buchnevich for Blais LOL)
mriswith
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It was only about 18 months between NYR's letter to their fans signifying a rebuild was on and acquiring Panarin/Trouba/Fox, effectively ending the rebuild.
I view it as just time savings, the extreme outlier summer of acquisitions saved them a couple years of rebuilding that they were otherwise prepared to do. The rebuilding they did do enabled a window to pop open when luck swung their way, e.g. we have Pettersson/Hughes/Demko/Miller/Kuzmenko and still suck because we did literally everything else wrong.
One thing I think gets overlooked on the NYR rebuild talk is that the massive shortcut they were gifted came in exchange for shortening the amount of time the window remains open compared to a more normal rebuild.
I view it as just time savings, the extreme outlier summer of acquisitions saved them a couple years of rebuilding that they were otherwise prepared to do. The rebuilding they did do enabled a window to pop open when luck swung their way, e.g. we have Pettersson/Hughes/Demko/Miller/Kuzmenko and still suck because we did literally everything else wrong.
One thing I think gets overlooked on the NYR rebuild talk is that the massive shortcut they were gifted came in exchange for shortening the amount of time the window remains open compared to a more normal rebuild.
And the Rangers also faced a tight/flat cap immediately after signing Panarin and trading for Trouba.
This org couldn’t even add Ethan Bear this summer without paying a future high pick to dump salary.
This org couldn’t even add Ethan Bear this summer without paying a future high pick to dump salary.
The goal should be get to wildcard -> 3-4 seed consistent playoff team-> improve to become a contender.
I think the difficulty is probably the same as going from rebuild -> out of rebuild -> wild card -> 3-4 seed consistent playoff team -> contender.
For both cases, you 'll need to draft well and need to get the right FA and make good trades. What you need to do doesn't change. You can argue oh if we rebuild we'll have more cap and assets. You only have assets if you draft well and trade well. If you can draft well and trade well then you will still have assets and even though there are less compared to a rebuild environment, there are less holes to fill comparatively as well.
Look at Tampa, they didn't build their team via their rebuild. They built it over a long period of time where majority of their supporting cast and core players were drafted/acquired outside of their rebuild period. Ditto with St.Louis, Washington, Pittsburg and Avs. The idea of a slow build is boring but large majority of Stanley cup winners go through a slow build with some mini re-tool in between.
bandwagonesque
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It's very obviously nothing like this. Fox is far better than Hamhuis, refused to consider playing for anyone but the Rangers while Hamhuis fielded and considered other offers, and signed an ELC that could have easily fit into any cap structure.
NYR were extremely lucky in their rebuild... you can't not agree with that statement.
However they were able to be extremely lucky by taking the correct steps. They put themselves in a position to be lucky and capitalize. This is why many here want the Canucks to try and do the same... I mean I get that I am not dumb.
I don't feel we are in this exact moment to make the same moves. We maybe in a year if Petey decides to not stay with the team, but we are not there yet. I also think shedding cap was much harder than anticipated. While some may not like signing of Miller and Mik, if the goal was to win soon, they were the correct moves. What may prove to be the wrong move was re-signing Boeser, but I think before final judgment is made on that we need to see what the trade is.
However they were able to be extremely lucky by taking the correct steps. They put themselves in a position to be lucky and capitalize. This is why many here want the Canucks to try and do the same... I mean I get that I am not dumb.
I don't feel we are in this exact moment to make the same moves. We maybe in a year if Petey decides to not stay with the team, but we are not there yet. I also think shedding cap was much harder than anticipated. While some may not like signing of Miller and Mik, if the goal was to win soon, they were the correct moves. What may prove to be the wrong move was re-signing Boeser, but I think before final judgment is made on that we need to see what the trade is.
bandwagonesque
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VintageBure
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I vaguely remember the rangers being a borderline playoff team and deciding to sell their aging assets during the deadline. They sold the players they were supposed to and still ended up making the playoffs, then they got extremely lucky in a couple lotteries. In a way though their management was progressive and smart, they made their own luck.
it makes no sense at this point to keep calling the Miller extension before the season, the correct move.
Same with burdening yourself with another $5m spent on the wing.
And they’re now tanking having been forced to trade their captain.
The correct move was to let Miller start the season without an extension. That much is obvious.
Same with burdening yourself with another $5m spent on the wing.
And they’re now tanking having been forced to trade their captain.
The correct move was to let Miller start the season without an extension. That much is obvious.
Actually much different cases.
Rangers got all three players before the flat cap. Had a year to figure out what to do. Were in the same boat at that time as all other teams, entering the flat cap. They had created their space when the cap was expected to go up.
The Canucks were in the midst of the flat cap trying to change their direction where other teams were no longer looking take on cap. Much different cases.
Depends what the goal of the team was...
something can be the correct move if you are trying to do A, and the wrong move if you are trying to do B.
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