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Management Thread | The Song Remains the Same Edition
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So Alvin admits the covid playoffs were a fluke
yet his and JR moves for a majority of the year were to try and fluke into the playoffs.
spare me that nonsense
taking out of both sides of his mouth.
yet his and JR moves for a majority of the year were to try and fluke into the playoffs.
spare me that nonsense
taking out of both sides of his mouth.
Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
The OEL trade really was something else. Like sometimes I'll just find myself thinking about it because it's so f***ing crazy. Someone in the GDT posted Benning's comments on OEL after the trade and I had to just sit there like my operating system froze up trying to process a bunch of nonsense code before crashing.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Rebuild is more than just tanking and drafting.
Also helps if you have the cap space to sign a Trouba or a Panarin when he wants to hop on your team.
Their draft lottery luck and the slow development of Kakko and Lafreniere are really not the point.
They set a goal worked towards it and also got luck on the way.
Do a little bit of this a little bit of that and you end up like the Canucks of today.
BrentSopelsHair
Registered User
But I hope that you can understand what they're saying here right? You're getting tied up in specifics, whereas they're talking about intent. Sure, any team is "trying" to win the cup, that's hypothetically why they get out of bed in the morning. But to make a hyperbolic example, if the Aquilinis put a 5-year old in charge of hockey ops, by your definition they would be trying to win just like everyone else
credulous
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there's a huge difference between aquilini wanting to win a cup and aquilini being willing to do the hard work of winning a cup (which probably starts with hiring people smarter than him and getting out of their way)
Frankie Blueberries
Dream Team
- Jan 27, 2016
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I just don’t get how he (or the rest of the family) haven’t learned from the mountain of mistakes yet?
Like you’ve been unsuccessfully trying to retool for a decade now, spending to the cap, mortgaging the future, and what do you have to show for it? A 1st round exit due to one last hurrah from the Sedin core and a fake 2nd round playoff run (as per the current GM), now with a bleak outlook on the future in terms of our prospect pool and cap flexibility. Yet he continues to employ the same stupid strategy. Reminds me of Charlie Brown and the football. Frankie will never learn and this team will never be competitive under him unless something significant changes.
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Frankie probably won't change.
I wouldn't be surprised if Demko behind the scenes does ask out. Seeing an opportunity in LA now with Paterson demoted, they need a goalie and he gets as close to home as he can get. Petey, tells the Canucks he is not extending this off-season. Will pull a Tkachuck or Trouba on them. Leaves Quinn to ask out like Eichel. If they all cite, the crap that they've endured with Frankie, maybe that finally gets through to him.
logan5
Registered User
It's a major failure by this management group not fixing the pk. In fact the pk is actually worse this year. Another major failure not having a proper back-up goaltender to at least provide average goaltending. Average pk and average goaltending would have this team in a playoff position, or at least very close. I would hope there is some method to this madness and that after this crucial draft we will see some significant progress next year. So far I rate Allvin and Rutherford as average, because your average GM usually screws things up royally.
AwesomeInTheory
A Christmas miracle
- Aug 21, 2015
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I was able to catch that presser live and had a similar reaction. It would've been high comedy had it been a team I wasn't a fan of, but just depressing since it was.
It's insane that Benning's pursuit of his white whale spanned 2 off-seasons and cost us so much. It's even worse when you get the misfortune to hear his rationale on why he did what he did. Like, holy shit.
Cap f***ed, lost out on valuable players (Tanev, Toffoli) as well as the HF favorite of 'assets.' I'd also say that Benning's managerial dysfunction was a contributing factor in Edler f***ing off forever as well as playing a part in Horvat leaving the team.
Just aces all around.
I loved all the smug posting from folks on here in support of the trade because he had a good training camp, despite numerous folks pointing out that it wasn't year 1 or 2 of his contract that was worrisome.
They're really f***ing quiet now.
The more they talk the more it confirms for me these guys don't know what they're doing. I really was optimistic when they took over. The longer they're around...just more nonsense.
Like, you're saying you didn't think the team was for real. Okay, why'd you double down on Miller, Boeser, and re-sign Kuz then? Why did you make a bunch of cap-limiting movies in the offseason to get to the playoffs (Mikheyev, Lazar, Bear was in-season but fairly early)? What is the direction you had in mind Allvin?
Yep. There were still, at that time, quite a few BenningBros hanging around trying to justify the OEL trade. Wonder where they went.
Rebuild is purely about tanking and drafting. If you don’t even understand the point of a rebuild then why even bother to argue for it.
Yes getting more assets is good but for almost every single team that rebuilds, the point is to get the high picks so they can pick elite guys that are never/rarely available in the trade or FA market. Yeah at the end of the day it's likely that those teams have a lot of assets and that's the function of being in the toilet for like 6-9 years. If you are sucking for that many years you are going to have a lot of assets.
It seems like you have this weird idea that we need to rebuild so we end up with like a young players to fill the 1C, 1W, 2C, 2W, 1D, 2D, 3D, 4D, 1G and then you get out of the rebuild. Most teams that are in a rebuild get like 3 core elite pieces and they are done and they try their best to get out of it and most end up failing to get out of it putting them in to a cycle where they end up drafting more guys.
Pitts had like a 3 player core in Sid, Malkin and Letang. Avs has a 4 player core in Mack, Ratanen, Makar and maybe Byram. Chicago had a 4 player core in Toews, Kane, Seabrook and Keith. The only outlier is Tampa but even then they only got 2 core players from their tank, TWO, the rest of them were just from normal building through the years. Once you have those core then it's *just* building depth around them.
If we end up successful in our tank, we can have 2 1C and 1D and a 1G moving foward. That's as solid as any other cores in any contending team in the league. The hardest part about a rebuild is essentially done.
it's like you have actually never looked up how contending teams built their team and just assumed well they must've tanked to get everybody.
Frankie Blueberries
Dream Team
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I can only imagine that Benning supporters only continued to support him for 8 years because they viewed changing their opinion as a sign of weakness/hit to their ego, which is an absurd and sad way of living your life.
Remember when the thread announcing Benning getting fired was locked within like a week or two? Talk about being overly sensitive.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
I see that you just dont have any understanding of what a rebuild even is.
No point continuing the conversation.
Lol i expect nothing less from you.
It’s funny that the guy arguing for a rebuild don’t understand why teams rebuild.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Obviously you live in a world of your own with your own "truths" and you keep colliding with everyone on these boards as a result.
If you are actually interested in joining the rest of us you can start here:
What does it mean to rebuild a team?
I've heard a lot of people say (insert American sports team) needs a rebuild. It's usually said when a team is on a bad run or has one or two bad season, and I've only ever heard people say it rega...
sports.stackexchange.com
credulous
Registered User
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i think you misunderstand what fans who want a rebuild are looking for. i can't speak for everyone but for me it's not about finding a 'core' and then building around it. for me a rebuild is about getting the assets so that when you identify you have a 'core' you have the assets to build around it
vancouver have arguably (i would disagree, but it's at least a debate) had a quality core for some part of the last 3-4 seasons. horvat, pettersson, hughes, miller, tanev, boeser, kuzmenko, demko were not all here at the same time but have all played like 'core' pieces in various configurations. where vancouver failed was that they didn't have the necessary depth in their system to put good players around them that could get them past the pretender stage
there's nothing really special about getting 2-3 elite level players. like you pointed out it mostly comes down to getting lucky in the draft (or by being the rangers). lots of teams have 2-3 elite (or at least really good) players. most of them aren't contenders. contenders are built by having 2-3 elite players AND 5-6 really good players on top of that. if you look at the rosters of contenders those 5-6 really good players usually come from the draft. either directly or via being acquired by using draft picks
what a rebuild accomplishes for vancouver isn't getting a #1 C, a #1 D and a #1 G. it's building the wealth in cap room and picks and young players that will let them pivot from a team with a few really good players to a team with a few really good players and a strong supporting cast
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Wow even with your half asses Google searches, you managed to pick out the post that talks about rebuild like retool.Obviously you live in a world of your own with your own "truths" and you keep colliding with everyone on these boards as a result.
If you are actually interested in joining the rest of us you can start here:
What does it mean to rebuild a team?
I've heard a lot of people say (insert American sports team) needs a rebuild. It's usually said when a team is on a bad run or has one or two bad season, and I've only ever heard people say it rega...
Let’s take the blurb you have highlighted here.
"Rebuilding" a team means taking a group of veteran, but (mostly) mediocre players, and trading them for younger, unproven players, in the hope that the younger players will collectively "grow" into something better than what you started out with.
Trading for younger unproven players, mmmmmmmm doesn’t that sound oh so familiar.
Oh wait, that’s not what you are arguing for though, you want draft picks, not younger unproven players. The wanting to get younger unproven players and have them grow together is actually what Allvin and JR wants.
Oh let’s look further down that post.
“Also, the teams with the worst records get the earliest picks in the "drafts." These early draft picks help teams rebuild with the most promising "rookies."
Oh look, that’s exactly what I said.
Do you even read the shit you post?
It’s wild that the guy being arrogant that his opinion is the truth is using the pom definition of rebuild….the definition that only pom used to subscribed to.
Getting core players is the easiest part of the job. Especially when you’re bad.
Getting core players is the easiest part of the job. Especially when you’re bad.
VanillaCoke
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- Oct 30, 2013
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It's pretty embarrassing and borderline ignore list
So thanks for taking the time to have an actual conversation.
If i am reading what you said correctly, you think that rebuild means trading away players and get into a mode where the team sucks and the team is in constant asset collection mode. And then when you "identify" a core, you would have enough assets to build around said core. That's exactly how everyone defines it, you get the team to suck so you get really high draft picks to pick players who become your core. And because that process takes so damn long because elite players are actually really hard to get, by the time you get them, you most likely will have a ton of assets to build around them.
I think it's also weird to say lots of team have 2-3 elite players and just leave it at that. Yes a lot of teams have 2-3 elite guys but not a lot of team have elite 1C and elite 1D. Like look at Detroit, they have really good players in Seider and Raymond but do they have a 1C, 1D? So they are stuck in this should we get out of rebuild or continue to tank, that mushy shitty middle. Like Look at Nashville and Minny and some of the teams in the mushy middle. Do they have elite players? Yeah but do they have like an elite 1C? Oh hell no and regardless of how much depth they gather, they are still stuck. There are plenty of teams who have 2-3 elite guys but are stuck because they are not the right elite piece. Like I would argue that Petey and Hughes and Demko are actually the right mix, add in one more 1C in this draft, I would say our core is as good as any contending team.
I agree with the having 5-6 really good players part but you don't really need to "rebuild" for that. We can look at the Avs, they did not actually draft well. What you described, they did not do that. They got their core guys and they essentially built the team via trades and FA signings. Tampa, they did not do what you described, they tanked and got Stamkos and Hedman and then drafted the rest of the guys who won them the cup *AFTER* they were done tanking. They didn't have a prolong rebuild where they were being shit every year so they can draft guys to surround Stamkos and Hedman, they just continue to build and took time to get there. LA, they
The only teams that did kind of what you are suggesting here is Chic back in the early 2000s and Buffalo but that is a weird case because they didn't really plan it like that, they just rebuild after a failed rebuild after a failed rebuild and have been rebuilding since 2012, 10 years ago and you know when they stopped? when they drafted those really good players with their multiple 1st OA.
And the point about cap space, I am pretty damn sure having cap space is not an objective when it comes to rebuilding, it's simply the consequence of getting rid of all players that have value. You do that then you get cap space, not every hard. There is no team that would say, yeah I am going to rebuild so I have cap space, like if you want cap space then just give up some players for cheap.
I guess this is the point where we disagree strongly. You guys believe that you need a strong supporting cast to win, I don't disagree with that, but the part I disagree is the idea that we need to rebuild to get that or that those guys need to be young. I think we've seen Pitts have a constant rotating set of supporting cast and that worked well enough for them to win 2 more cups late in Sid and Malkin's lifecycle. We've seen Avs build their supporting cast that are not really young. I think having them all young has definite cost advantages but I think that really shouldn't be the determining factor for why you should rebuild.
rypper
21-12-05 it's finally over.
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Intangibos
High-End Intangibos
When I think of a rebuild, I think of a recovery period for a team. Getting young star players is one aspect of that. If a team has no elite talent because their old elite talent has retired or whatever, they need to take steps to fix that.
There are other parts of a rebuild too, though. Lots of people think you may need to rebuild because you don't have a prospect pool, but that's only true if you are going to need players stepping into roles in the near future. That's why this team does need a prospect pool, we have a lot of holes on the roster that need to be filled. Prospects can be promoted into these roles, or they can be traded if the time/price is right.
The often overlooked aspect of rebuilding is cap space, although I think on these boards it's not so overlooked. When you're rebuilding, you're not trying to compete so you can start to clear up cap space. You can also take on short term cap to improve your prospect pool as long as the cap you take on doesn't extend past your rebuilding phase.
I'm totally fine with having Hughes and Pettersson as two elite players to build around. I was also happy with the idea of building around Horvat, Tanev, Markstrom, Boeser etc. The issue was we had no cap space and no prospects, so we clearly were not ready to be in anything but a building phase. I'm not looking to rebuild around players other than Hughes/Pettersson, I'm looking to set up the team in such a way that it's even possible to build a winning team around these players. With the anchors on this roster with years left on their contract, it isn't.
I think the big issue here that causes misunderstanding is the term "rebuilding" rather than just "building". People say rebuilding because it should be a quick process with clear goals and a plan moving forward. Only an absolutely useless dipshit management would be stuck in the building phase so long that the term "rebuilding" becomes misleading due to nothing ever being built in the first place
There are other parts of a rebuild too, though. Lots of people think you may need to rebuild because you don't have a prospect pool, but that's only true if you are going to need players stepping into roles in the near future. That's why this team does need a prospect pool, we have a lot of holes on the roster that need to be filled. Prospects can be promoted into these roles, or they can be traded if the time/price is right.
The often overlooked aspect of rebuilding is cap space, although I think on these boards it's not so overlooked. When you're rebuilding, you're not trying to compete so you can start to clear up cap space. You can also take on short term cap to improve your prospect pool as long as the cap you take on doesn't extend past your rebuilding phase.
I'm totally fine with having Hughes and Pettersson as two elite players to build around. I was also happy with the idea of building around Horvat, Tanev, Markstrom, Boeser etc. The issue was we had no cap space and no prospects, so we clearly were not ready to be in anything but a building phase. I'm not looking to rebuild around players other than Hughes/Pettersson, I'm looking to set up the team in such a way that it's even possible to build a winning team around these players. With the anchors on this roster with years left on their contract, it isn't.
I think the big issue here that causes misunderstanding is the term "rebuilding" rather than just "building". People say rebuilding because it should be a quick process with clear goals and a plan moving forward. Only an absolutely useless dipshit management would be stuck in the building phase so long that the term "rebuilding" becomes misleading due to nothing ever being built in the first place
credulous
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it has nothing to do with what type of 'good' players you target to fill out your roster. what players you get depends on what players are available. if you wait for the perfect player to come along you'll never actually fill out a roster
what matters is that when players that you think could help you come available you are in a situation to act on it and add them to your team. vancouver just aren't. even if you ignore all the inefficient money they are unable to move they have basically no young players other teams covet and their draft pick count is up one first either this year or next, one 4th this year and down one second next year and one 5th this year
if a player like marino is available at the draft do vancouver have the extra pieces to give up to get him? can they fit him in their cap? how are they going to afford a 6m/yr contract for a top 4 defender to replace myers? who fills the hole at center on the third line? how do they address their lack of players who can kill penalties if they have nothing to give up to get those players?
it's pure fantasy to think you can just out scout the rest of the league and find anthony duclair, mason marchement, carter verhaeghe, gustav forsling and brandon montour all at exactly the right time and all under the noses of the other 31 teams in the league
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