Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[RandV]

Remember when we had a $12 million 4th line of Beagle, Roussel, and Eriksson? They really helped build a winning culture here.

Maybe the best part is that Eriksson aside that is what he decided to do with the Sedin retirement cap space.

Anyway from Nonis to Gillis to Benning and now onto Allvin it should really make clear all the nonsense that came up during the Benning regime. First more my own thought that you can give credit here and there for assets on a team but that's always going to accrue naturally. You're always going to get a new set of picks each year, and our proverbial potato could functionally run a team.

So to the point what really separates good teams from bad is good management. And good management is not just how you draft players and make trades, but top to bottom how you run the organization from management to coaching. For the Canucks to get out of our Benning funk it wasn't a matter of accumulating enough assets, but instilling proper team structure through good coaching and making a few effective tweaks to the roster.

I think what it really boils down to is the people running everything tend to all come from the pool of former players and doesn't require any further education or specialization. Like I implied above, day to day decisions running an NHL team can be made with a potato baseline. So that leaves you with a pool of managers where you can anywhere from have good/competant (Gillis, Allvin), to poor/mediocre (Nonis), to out right terrible/incompetent (Benning) people running your team.

 

[Bleach Clean]

I’m just going to say it because it’s been long enough. We have a pretty good management group. Haven’t felt this way since 2014.

Still pretty traumatized by what’s happened in the past, so I always have this thing in the back of my mind where i think we’re about to make some terrible ass trade/signing/move. Can you blame me though?

I think this past offseason turned opinions on this group in a big way. Very good work in FA. Before then? You could legitimately criticize them.

Compared to Benning? Not even close. (Few are)

 

[valkynax]

I think this past offseason turned opinions on this group in a big way. Very good work in FA. Before then? You could legitimately criticize them.

Compared to Benning? Not even close. (Few are)

Yes.

 

[elitepete]

I think this past offseason turned opinions on this group in a big way. Very good work in FA. Before then? You could legitimately criticize them.

Compared to Benning? Not even close. (Few are)

Exactly. And keeping Boeser and Miller look like good decisions now (maybe even genius).

 

[tantalum]

I think this past offseason turned opinions on this group in a big way. Very good work in FA. Before then? You could legitimately criticize them.

Compared to Benning? Not even close. (Few are)

I think people were pretty impatient for the on-ice changes to be made (or be obvious) and really underestimated the work that needed to be done structurally for the organization. Things that needed to be done in order to see what we are seeing. Most think the building of a team starts with the players on the ice and in many cases that is what can be done by a new GM. In this case Benning and Aquilini had also let the entire organization off the ice rot and that needed to be addressed first.

The damage Benning and friends did really illustrated how being a GM is far more than drafting and trades. Rutherford and Alvin had a monumental task (still do) but for the most part they have attacked it with competence and consistency since day 1.

 

[arttk]

I think people were pretty impatient for the on-ice changes to be made (or be obvious) and really underestimated the work that needed to be done structurally for the organization. Things that needed to be done in order to see what we are seeing. Most think the building of a team starts with the players on the ice and in many cases that is what can be done by a new GM. In this case Benning and Aquilini had also let the entire organization off the ice rot and that needed to be addressed first.

The damage Benning and friends did really illustrated how being a GM is far more than drafting and trades. Rutherford and Alvin had a monumental task (still do) but for the most part they have attacked it with competence and consistency since day 1.

I think a lot of people think team building is just simply getting players together and tada.

It was never realistic to assume they would be able to fix things in 1 f***ing year. Didn’t help that a bunch of fans felt they never tot the rebuild they wanted and when the new management group decided to not do it, they got so offended that any little thing that didn’t go well became a reason for exaggerated criticism.

 

[Jerry the great]

I think a lot of people think team building is just simply getting players together and tada.

It was never realistic to assume they would be able to fix things in 1 f***ing year. Didn’t help that a bunch of fans felt they never tot the rebuild they wanted and when the new management group decided to not do it, they got so offended that any little thing that didn’t go well became a reason for exaggerated criticism.

I think team building is a whole lot different when you have an exceedingly competent coaching staff that implements a sound system and absolutely hammers home the details at practice and during games. It also help when you have a management group/pro scouting department that can identify players who fit this system. It may also help if you have a core with 3 Hart trophy candidates, one of whom is also the Norris trophy frontrunner.

 

[andora]

I think team building is a whole lot different when you have an exceedingly competent coaching staff that implements a sound system and absolutely hammers home the details at practice and during games. It also help when you have a management group/pro scouting department that can identify players who fit this system. It may also help if you have a core with 3 Hart trophy candidates, one of whom is also the Norris trophy frontrunner.

Lol yes the last point helps but the first two are important to create an actual 'program' to steal a term from USA collegiate... and these things also take time

 

[valkynax]

How Mr. Clean and Moleman's actions have panned out has earned them some major benefit of the doubt, should they come to make additional moves in the future.

We're entering a new age of the orcas, where the phrases like "trade", "leadership", "foundational player" will have much lower chance of causing symptoms such as cringe-induced seizures, uncontrolled level of WTF's, and continuously intensifying levels of OMG WHY's.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Maybe the best part is that Eriksson aside that is what he decided to do with the Sedin retirement cap space.

Anyway from Nonis to Gillis to Benning and now onto Allvin it should really make clear all the nonsense that came up during the Benning regime. First more my own thought that you can give credit here and there for assets on a team but that's always going to accrue naturally. You're always going to get a new set of picks each year, and our proverbial potato could functionally run a team.

So to the point what really separates good teams from bad is good management. And good management is not just how you draft players and make trades, but top to bottom how you run the organization from management to coaching. For the Canucks to get out of our Benning funk it wasn't a matter of accumulating enough assets, but instilling proper team structure through good coaching and making a few effective tweaks to the roster.

I think what it really boils down to is the people running everything tend to all come from the pool of former players and doesn't require any further education or specialization. Like I implied above, day to day decisions running an NHL team can be made with a potato baseline. So that leaves you with a pool of managers where you can anywhere from have good/competant (Gillis, Allvin), to poor/mediocre (Nonis), to out right terrible/incompetent (Benning) people running your team.

One thing that someone told me a long time ago is "Managers manage."

And sarcasm or quips about Benning aside, I think that this is a very real issue when it came to Benning's tenure as GM.

We saw a lot of consolidation of roles/responsibilities, people leaving the organization (and no one really replacing them), Benning faffing around scouting players (including that one time when he and Weisbrod f***ed off to....Texas(?) and didn't really support the organization he was apparently the leader of when a crisis came up (either Virtanen or Covid, I can't recall which one. I think it was the Covid outbreak on the team.)

The big difference here, and why I was willing to give Rutherford and Allvin the benefit of the doubt is that they started building a leadership team. I honestly can't recall who Benning hired outside of Weisbrod and his son, and both were just participants in the echo chamber. Did he hire Gear? From what I recall he was already part of the org and was promoted. (It's also telling to me that a guy who has been around the league for years and years had very few people he'd want as part of his team and more or less just worked with what he got -- Weisbrod excepted. Burke, Gillis and Rutherford all brought in 'their' guys, with Nonis being one of Burke's 'guys' who ended up getting promoted.) Maybe Todd Harvey?

Regardless, Benning struck me as a dude who was too involved in the day to day and didn't really trust or have the wherewithal to put people into positions and let them do the work for him. It's a key thing if you're going to be an exec/leader.

 

[theguardianII]

One thing that someone told me a long time ago is "Managers manage."

And sarcasm or quips about Benning aside, I think that this is a very real issue when it came to Benning's tenure as GM.

We saw a lot of consolidation of roles/responsibilities, people leaving the organization (and no one really replacing them), Benning faffing around scouting players (including that one time when he and Weisbrod f***ed off to....Texas(?) and didn't really support the organization he was apparently the leader of when a crisis came up (either Virtanen or Covid, I can't recall which one. I think it was the Covid outbreak on the team.)

The big difference here, and why I was willing to give Rutherford and Allvin the benefit of the doubt is that they started building a leadership team. I honestly can't recall who Benning hired outside of Weisbrod and his son, and both were just participants in the echo chamber. Did he hire Gear? From what I recall he was already part of the org and was promoted. (It's also telling to me that a guy who has been around the league for years and years had very few people he'd want as part of his team and more or less just worked with what he got -- Weisbrod excepted. Burke, Gillis and Rutherford all brought in 'their' guys, with Nonis being one of Burke's 'guys' who ended up getting promoted.) Maybe Todd Harvey?

Regardless, Benning struck me as a dude who was too involved in the day to day and didn't really trust or have the wherewithal to put people into positions and let them do the work for him. It's a key thing if you're going to be an exec/leader.

Elmer was always the smartest guy in the room. In his mind anyway.

I sure hope the way the team is playing doesn't lead to mass demands for sacrificing the future.

I hear lots of unrealistic trade suggestions.
NONE appear to think any further than NOW.
NONE seem to consider the salary cap.
NONE think the team might go out in the first round.
NONE consider what next year's team might look like, realistically.
ALL seem to think everything will go the way fans want.

THERE IS NO INSTANT GRATIFICATION and shouldn't be expected

 

[Ernie]

(Was Luongo actually injured though, to the point of having insurance kick in? This has faded from memory and I thought the LTIR proposition was kind of Hossa-style).

That's the big question from me. It sounded like Luongo was retiring with no specific injury, and it could have been an issue with the league for cap circumvention. He would likely have passed a physical which would have been an issue when collecting insurance.

I'm as happy to dunk on Benning as the next guy but there quite likely was more going on here than "Benning forgot to return a call."

 

[Nazzlind]

What was Florida asking for in return ? They had all the leverage, no?

 

[Raistlin]

One thing that someone told me a long time ago is "Managers manage."

And sarcasm or quips about Benning aside, I think that this is a very real issue when it came to Benning's tenure as GM.

We saw a lot of consolidation of roles/responsibilities, people leaving the organization (and no one really replacing them), Benning faffing around scouting players (including that one time when he and Weisbrod f***ed off to....Texas(?) and didn't really support the organization he was apparently the leader of when a crisis came up (either Virtanen or Covid, I can't recall which one. I think it was the Covid outbreak on the team.)

The big difference here, and why I was willing to give Rutherford and Allvin the benefit of the doubt is that they started building a leadership team. I honestly can't recall who Benning hired outside of Weisbrod and his son, and both were just participants in the echo chamber. Did he hire Gear? From what I recall he was already part of the org and was promoted. (It's also telling to me that a guy who has been around the league for years and years had very few people he'd want as part of his team and more or less just worked with what he got -- Weisbrod excepted. Burke, Gillis and Rutherford all brought in 'their' guys, with Nonis being one of Burke's 'guys' who ended up getting promoted.) Maybe Todd Harvey?

Regardless, Benning struck me as a dude who was too involved in the day to day and didn't really trust or have the wherewithal to put people into positions and let them do the work for him. It's a key thing if you're going to be an exec/leader.

I've worked with guys like Benning in leadership roles. the main #1 issue is his confidence in himself. When you're not sure what to do, and you're in charge of a large op, you consolidate your inner circle to only people you can trust and manage. Ultimately, he was not ready and not given a stead hand to guide him, and should've been fired long long ago if the team was run by a competent board. Instead it was run by Franky looking for a yes man. So he was kept on and allowed to let mistake upon mistake mestastasize. While the whole media landscape here sees the tirefire burning and putting heavy pressure on him, he trusts less and less people, shy from interviews, recede into his foreskin and the competent people have no choice but to GTFO. In the end, his undoing was indeed because his team became so small that they cannot deal with anything out of the mundane. When COVID happened, I think the team was aware of how messed up and rudderless the whole organisation was and Miller had to step up to the mic. It was a 2D structure as thin as paper, and it was a shameful time to be a fan of such a mess.

Contrast that to JR, and it all starts from him being a mentor and empowering Allvin. He is old enough that Allvin can fully trust the old guy to shadow GM and know he is really just there to show him the ropes. That is REALLY awesome. GM for a major sports team is an insane amount of work. JR took charge of facilities and infrastructure building after realizing he was too open with our ever inquisitive media. Having Abbotsford in close proximity is such a luxury. Allvin is too new for me to judge him, but he seems to work the phone hard, and so far he is going a great job holding things together. Another major win was to win over the trust of the Sedins, with them spearheading player development, you got TWO super cohesive minds with impressive cache to take care of the pipeline development, who doesnt want to navigate a new field with the person they came into the world with? JR took a chance on hiring both Granato and Castonguay and they support each other in a male dominated work environment. We know they are both super driven from their national team work, while they lack in connections, and they probably have fresh ideas in cap management and scouting, and we can see significant upgrade in those departments right away.

Lastly the coaching staff. MAN! this could be the most impressive los-galacticos staff ever assembled. I wont waste words, but want to point out that its JR and Allvin's trust over the many years of working together in Pittsburgh that lead to this assembly.

The overarching theme of this mid season evaluation of management is support from top down. Its a rock solid prism where each person empowers the staff under them and they have the support in place to execute their decisions. This about face combined with the city's high reputation means it will attract good people back. JR needs to be there to keep Franky at bay, as long as that barrier is there, this is a f***ing good foundation.

 

[andora]

I've worked with guys like Benning in leadership roles. the main #1 issue is his confidence in himself. When you're not sure what to do, and you're in charge of a large op, you consolidate your inner circle to only people you can trust and manage. Ultimately, he was not ready and not given a stead hand to guide him, and should've been fired long long ago if the team was run by a competent board. Instead it was run by Franky looking for a yes man. So he was kept on and allowed to let mistake upon mistake mestastasize. While the whole media landscape here sees the tirefire burning and putting heavy pressure on him, he trusts less and less people, shy from interviews, recede into his foreskin and the competent people have no choice but to GTFO. In the end, his undoing was indeed because his team became so small that they cannot deal with anything out of the mundane. When COVID happened, I think the team was aware of how messed up and rudderless the whole organisation was and Miller had to step up to the mic. It was a 2D structure as thin as paper, and it was a shameful time to be a fan of such a mess.

Contrast that to JR, and it all starts from him being a mentor and empowering Allvin. He is old enough that Allvin can fully trust the old guy to shadow GM and know he is really just there to show him the ropes. That is REALLY awesome. GM for a major sports team is an insane amount of work. JR took charge of facilities and infrastructure building after realizing he was too open with our ever inquisitive media. Having Abbotsford in close proximity is such a luxury. Allvin is too new for me to judge him, but he seems to work the phone hard, and so far he is going a great job holding things together. Another major win was to win over the trust of the Sedins, with them spearheading player development, you got TWO super cohesive minds with impressive cache to take care of the pipeline development, who doesnt want to navigate a new field with the person they came into the world with? JR took a chance on hiring both Granato and Castonguay and they support each other in a male dominated work environment. We know they are both super driven from their national team work, while they lack in connections, and they probably have fresh ideas in cap management and scouting, and we can see significant upgrade in those departments right away.

Lastly the coaching staff. MAN! this could be the most impressive los-galacticos staff ever assembled. I wont waste words, but want to point out that its JR and Allvin's trust over the many years of working together in Pittsburgh that lead to this assembly.

The overarching theme of this mid season evaluation of management is support from top down. Its a rock solid prism where each person empowers the staff under them and they have the support in place to execute their decisions. This about face combined with the city's high reputation means it will attract good people back. JR needs to be there to keep Franky at bay, as long as that barrier is there, this is a f***ing good foundation.

Nicely said

 

[racerjoe]

That's the big question from me. It sounded like Luongo was retiring with no specific injury, and it could have been an issue with the league for cap circumvention. He would likely have passed a physical which would have been an issue when collecting insurance.

I'm as happy to dunk on Benning as the next guy but there quite likely was more going on here than "Benning forgot to return a call."

I don't know enough about how the insurance works, but I would assume they would pay as his is a contract I imagine they would have insured. However what has come out says there is probably no way he passed a physical. He was having to do a lot to be able to play hockey at all.

 

[andora]

I don't know enough about how the insurance works, but I would assume they would pay as his is a contract I imagine they would have insured. However what has come out says there is probably no way he passed a physical. He was having to do a lot to be able to play hockey at all.

Looks at how he walks now ..his hips were fried

 

[valkynax]

I've worked with guys like Benning in leadership roles. the main #1 issue is his confidence in himself. When you're not sure what to do, and you're in charge of a large op, you consolidate your inner circle to only people you can trust and manage. Ultimately, he was not ready and not given a stead hand to guide him, and should've been fired long long ago if the team was run by a competent board. Instead it was run by Franky looking for a yes man. So he was kept on and allowed to let mistake upon mistake mestastasize. While the whole media landscape here sees the tirefire burning and putting heavy pressure on him, he trusts less and less people, shy from interviews, recede into his foreskin and the competent people have no choice but to GTFO. In the end, his undoing was indeed because his team became so small that they cannot deal with anything out of the mundane. When COVID happened, I think the team was aware of how messed up and rudderless the whole organisation was and Miller had to step up to the mic. It was a 2D structure as thin as paper, and it was a shameful time to be a fan of such a mess.

Contrast that to JR, and it all starts from him being a mentor and empowering Allvin. He is old enough that Allvin can fully trust the old guy to shadow GM and know he is really just there to show him the ropes. That is REALLY awesome. GM for a major sports team is an insane amount of work. JR took charge of facilities and infrastructure building after realizing he was too open with our ever inquisitive media. Having Abbotsford in close proximity is such a luxury. Allvin is too new for me to judge him, but he seems to work the phone hard, and so far he is going a great job holding things together. Another major win was to win over the trust of the Sedins, with them spearheading player development, you got TWO super cohesive minds with impressive cache to take care of the pipeline development, who doesnt want to navigate a new field with the person they came into the world with? JR took a chance on hiring both Granato and Castonguay and they support each other in a male dominated work environment. We know they are both super driven from their national team work, while they lack in connections, and they probably have fresh ideas in cap management and scouting, and we can see significant upgrade in those departments right away.

Lastly the coaching staff. MAN! this could be the most impressive los-galacticos staff ever assembled. I wont waste words, but want to point out that its JR and Allvin's trust over the many years of working together in Pittsburgh that lead to this assembly.

The overarching theme of this mid season evaluation of management is support from top down. Its a rock solid prism where each person empowers the staff under them and they have the support in place to execute their decisions. This about face combined with the city's high reputation means it will attract good people back. JR needs to be there to keep Franky at bay, as long as that barrier is there, this is a f***ing good foundation.

I like this. All of this.

You probably already noticed this but, during JEB's entire tenure, he's been projecting sweaty insecurity and blinding confidence at the same time. Whenever I saw a mic/cam in front of his face, he always looked absolutely CLUELESS about what is happening. And when there's insider information about what he's doing or talking about, he always sounded like he thought he just outsmarted every GM in the league.

It was quite fascinating, how in God's name could someone exhibit delusional narcissism and panic-inducing fear at the same time? Of course, it took no time at all before all the NHL execs realized what a complete dumb shit JEB was and they collectively gone into Lenny's "get ready everybody, he's about to do something STUPID..." mode.

PS: The "recede into his foreskin" part is a wonderful anecdote on so many levels. I would include some smart ass GIF but...I like this board, I would prefer not to get my head busted open by the mods.

 

[andora]

I like this. All of this.

You probably already noticed this but, during JEB's entire tenure, he's been projecting sweaty insecurity and blinding confidence at the same time. Whenever I saw a mic/cam in front of his face, he always looked absolutely CLUELESS about what is happening. And when there's insider information about what he's doing or talking about, he always sounded like he thought he just outsmarted every GM in the league.

It was quite fascinating, how in God's name could someone exhibit delusional narcissism and panic-inducing fear at the same time? Of course, it took no time at all before all the NHL execs realized what a complete dumb shit JEB was and they collectively gone into Lenny's "get ready everybody, he's about to do something STUPID..." mode.

PS: The "recede into his foreskin" part is a wonderful anecdote on so many levels. I would include some smart ass GIF but...I like this board, I would prefer not to get my head busted open by the mods.

I know a picture equates to 1000 words but Epoch and his ass juice talk opened the door

 

[rypper]

Looks at how he walks now ..his hips were fried

It took him 2-3 hours before a game/practice to prepare his body, stretching, rehab etc. Like you say his hips were f***ed. Easy LTIRetire case.

 

[andora]

It took him 2-3 hours before a game/practice to prepare his body, stretching, rehab etc. Like you say his hips were f***ed. Easy LTIRetire case.

Just watching him walk out for that ceremony damn it looked painful

 

[RobertKron]

One thing that someone told me a long time ago is "Managers manage."

And sarcasm or quips about Benning aside, I think that this is a very real issue when it came to Benning's tenure as GM.

We saw a lot of consolidation of roles/responsibilities, people leaving the organization (and no one really replacing them), Benning faffing around scouting players (including that one time when he and Weisbrod f***ed off to....Texas(?) and didn't really support the organization he was apparently the leader of when a crisis came up (either Virtanen or Covid, I can't recall which one. I think it was the Covid outbreak on the team.)

The big difference here, and why I was willing to give Rutherford and Allvin the benefit of the doubt is that they started building a leadership team. I honestly can't recall who Benning hired outside of Weisbrod and his son, and both were just participants in the echo chamber. Did he hire Gear? From what I recall he was already part of the org and was promoted. (It's also telling to me that a guy who has been around the league for years and years had very few people he'd want as part of his team and more or less just worked with what he got -- Weisbrod excepted. Burke, Gillis and Rutherford all brought in 'their' guys, with Nonis being one of Burke's 'guys' who ended up getting promoted.) Maybe Todd Harvey?

Regardless, Benning struck me as a dude who was too involved in the day to day and didn't really trust or have the wherewithal to put people into positions and let them do the work for him. It's a key thing if you're going to be an exec/leader.

Benning appeared to run the Canucks in the way that a dumb small business owner who made their money doing something else (lets say they had equity in a startup that won the acquisition lottery, or they had rich as f*** parents or partner or whatever) and then decided to open a business in a field they enjoy but lack expertise in (they like hanging out at cafes so they open a coffee shop, or a restaurant, or they're an avid beer leaguer so they open a hockey shop) tends to run their business: They micromanage the areas in which they have knowledge, or that they think are neat and fun and make them feel like the big boss, and they utterly neglect the parts that aren't any fun. Worse yet, they're often incapable of separating the business from their own ego, which results in them constantly doubling down on bad ideas and marginalizing the talented voices they're supposed to be paying to be talented voices.

 

[Jyrki21]

Sighhhhhh…



When the terrible government gets overthrown and things get better, you don’t credit the overthrown guys…

I should make money giving the world’s shortest seminar on how draft picks are allocated.

 

[rypper]

Sighhhhhh…



When the terrible government gets overthrown and things get better, you don’t credit the overthrown guys…

I should make money giving the world’s shortest seminar on how draft picks are allocated.

Guy is the biggest f***ing idiot on all of canucks twitter. For all his takes too, not just hockey related.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Sighhhhhh…



When the terrible government gets overthrown and things get better, you don’t credit the overthrown guys…

I should make money giving the world’s shortest seminar on how draft picks are allocated.

Who is this guy on Twitter..?..Anyway, both points can be true..JR/PA never acquired the worst team in NHL history (hyperbole)...and they never rebuilt it either..They retooled it (around the existing core..Jim Rutherford has explained this more than once).