Management Thread | Regular Season Edition

[RandV]

The point is that that "highly regarded prospect" + late 2nd round pick is the equivalent value of a mid 1st round pick + late 2nd round pick. It's not a "haul" but it's still more than a "negligible" return. Are you saying that a mid 1st round pick + late 2nd round pick is a negligible return?

And again, it's not like the Canucks are restricted to asking for a highly regarded prospect who might bust. The chances are the acquiring team needs to send a contract back. The team could target a young roster player in return similar to Eichel's return where Buffalo got Tuch. Again, to be clear to others jumping into the discussion we're not talking about whether it's a good enough return here.

I mean by itself sure, getting a good prospect and 2nd round pick or whatever is always nice to have. What I was saying is in contrast to having Pettersson signed long term then yes whatever trade deadline the value is negligible.

Like if you're talking those sorts of assets Vancouver already has Willander, Lekkerimaki, Podkolzin, Pettersson, Brzustewicz, Raty, and our future 1st & 2nd round picks. Pretty much every team in the league has half a dozen guys like that in the league, it's pocket change compared to the actual elite talent in the league like Pettersson & Hughes. These assets can be used to acquire the big asset, but only when one gets knocked loose and about to leave his current team. Then it's about who's available to trade for when you suddenly have a lot of cap space open up, and you have to hope you're not replacing a Pettersson with a Huberdeau. And the Canucks have enough assets to make that trade without getting a return on Pettersson.

Considering how unlikely it is that Pettersson doesn't sign on a new multiyear deal, and even if he did go 1 year to test free agency if the Canucks are still a playoff team then they hold onto him regardless, you have to ask why even bother bringing it up? Are people not happy with the current winning Canucks, and longing to go back a year when we could talk about stockpiling picks & prospects?

 

[F A N]

I mean by itself sure, getting a good prospect and 2nd round pick or whatever is always nice to have. What I was saying is in contrast to having Pettersson signed long term then yes whatever trade deadline the value is negligible.

Thanks for finally explaining yourself after I asked you a couple of times what you meant by negligible. What if the return ends up being what Ottawa got for Karlsson? Still negligible?

Considering how unlikely it is that Pettersson doesn't sign on a new multiyear deal, and even if he did go 1 year to test free agency if the Canucks are still a playoff team then they hold onto him regardless, you have to ask why even bother bringing it up? Are people not happy with the current winning Canucks, and longing to go back a year when we could talk about stockpiling picks & prospects?

It goes back to asset management doesn't it? I think we agree that if Petey decided he will not re-sign with the Canucks we're not likely to get better in the near term trading Petey. So then we would have to consider whether it's worth going for it? I feel that in your worst case scenario it would be too much of a distraction for the Canucks to have a chance of winning the Cup but we don't have to agree on this.

 

[Javaman]

What's most encouraging to me about this team is that they can rely upon their depth to win games. They somehow find a way to win without necessarily relying on Demko, Hughes, Pettersson, or Miller.

That's what gives me the most hope for post-season success.

 

[vanuck]

What's most encouraging to me about this team is that they can rely upon their depth to win games. They somehow find a way to win without necessarily relying on Demko, Hughes, Pettersson, or Miller.

That's what gives me the most hope for post-season success.

Gotta give credit where it's due - Allvin managed to add cheap but effective depth with guys like Blueger, Joshua, Lafferty, Cole, Suter. Pretty much how Zito turned the Panthers around.

 

[Javaman]

Gotta give credit where it's due - Allvin managed to add cheap but effective depth with guys like Blueger, Joshua, Lafferty, Cole, Suter. Pretty much how Zito turned the Panthers around.

Brick by brick. He meant what he said.

 

[IComeInPeace]

Put yourself back 1 year in time. It’s January of 2023…

…you are dreaming of how long it will take us to become not only a top team in the league, but also simultaneously have a bunch of really nice prospects to be excited about….

How many of us would have said ‘yeah, this time next year’

 

[Bleach Clean]

Gotta give credit where it's due - Allvin managed to add cheap but effective depth with guys like Blueger, Joshua, Lafferty, Cole, Suter. Pretty much how Zito turned the Panthers around.

Allvin's signings this past offseason is his best work, imo. I wouldn't classify him or Rutherford as upper end managers, but they've climbed upwards from the bottom 1/3rd of managers for me. He deserves his kudos for his recent work.

 

[vanuck]

Allvin's signings this past offseason is his best work, imo. I wouldn't classify him or Rutherford as upper end managers, but they've climbed upwards from the bottom 1/3rd of managers for me. He deserves his kudos for his recent work.

Where would you rank Allvin/Rutherford as a duo, amongst all 32 teams?

 

[theguardianII]

They won’t sign Pettersson to a two or three year deal. Pull your head out.


He has some absolutely bizarre takes.

Oh great and wonderful OZ please give me the winning lottery numbers for this Saturday.

Must be hard to go through life as the only perfect person. I commend your patience with the mob.

If Pettersson wants a 2 or 3 year contract that is what he will get. My opinion is that the Canucks would want him back on the team without causing too much drama.

Myers and Zadorov, my take? They ARE the shut down pairing now. According to that idiot Tocchet. Or that other dummy running the defence, what's his name? Foote?

Bizarre eh?

 

[andora]

Again, there's no fundamental disagreement here and I did ask you whether you thought the equivalent of a mid 1st round pick + 2nd is a negligible return.

Yes - i think it would be stupid to trade him for a middle first and a 2nd round draft pick. the context being what you want your team to go for next year + lack of viable age relative replacements likely available

To be clear, this whole discussion started when RandV responded with his worst case scenario to my comment: "Either way, the Canucks should be able to recoup assets for Petey should the Canucks fail to re-sign him." Yes the Canucks can CHOOSE to keep Petey, but my original point is that the Canucks SHOULD be able to recoup assets for Petey should the Canucks fail to re-sign him. Nothing you have said disproves my point.

that's like saying i could use my draft picks to add to my prospect pool. yes, you could recoup some assets if you're trading your cornerstone forward..

Again, you can take the stance that if the Canucks are forced to trade Petey we are not going to receive assets commensurate with what Petey brings (I acknowlege that you phrased what you said with less certainty than RandV). That's fair. But that doesn't really leave us with any room for discussions? The Canucks can get Ottawa's Erik Karlsson type return and you can still take the stance that that is a "neglible return." I would obviously disagree with the position.

ottawa's return for karlsson? a 3rd overall plus other stuff is different than a middle first and a 2nd. are you referencing the karlsson package as 3rd overall + other stuff or are you referencing the karlsson package as 'what if it turns out to be a player like stutzle and norris plus other maybes'. the latter is odd where the former is realistic.

3rd overall and a bunch of other stuff for pettersson, i would have to see what draft it is, who is top 3 and learn about all the other crap attached to it

To be clear, the value equivalent to a mid-1st + 2nd is what I believe to be the minumum in which the the Canucks can get for trading Petey at the deadline. If Petey signs his QO (per RandV's worst case scenario) the Canucks can look to trade Petey for the best package. Keeping him for a potential Cup run is a choice and has nothing to do with what the Canucks can get in return for trading Petey. The team also doesn't have to target draft picks or prospects. We're talking about an elite level C here.

ok

 

[tyhee]

This is new news about an old matter. If this isn't the place for it I apologize.

There's a story in the Vancouver Sun today (likely also in the Province) from Patrick Johnston. There is no quote, just reference to a source that said before Luongo retired he advised his agent to call the Canucks and let them know "the Panthers were going to have him retire officially." It was made clear to the Canucks that Luongo was willing to live out the final three seasons of his contract on long term injured reserve but the Canucks never called the Panthers to re-acquire Luongo's contract.

 

[whitegsr]

^clearly Jim Benning ran out of time

 

[Red]

Benning is more of a f***ing idiot than I even thought he was.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

^clearly Jim Benning ran out of time

 

[BimJenning]

This is new news about an old matter. If this isn't the place for it I apologize.

There's a story in the Vancouver Sun today (likely also in the Province) from Patrick Johnston. There is no quote, just reference to a source that said before Luongo retired he advised his agent to call the Canucks and let them know "the Panthers were going to have him retire officially." It was made clear to the Canucks that Luongo was willing to live out the final three seasons of his contract on long term injured reserve but the Canucks never called the Panthers to re-acquire Luongo's contract.

Hahah, if so, that is the most Benning of Benning moves. Makes me think of that presser where he just claimed cap space would work itself out

 

[Jyrki21]

I thought we already knew this? Didn’t it come out around the HoF induction last year?

Also it means Aqua paying real money, so it’s possible it was never on the table anyhow.

 

[Green Blank Stare]

I'm excited to see what they do at the deadline. Definitely need to be buyers and make a run at this thing.

 

[Kryten]

This year has a first round exit like BOS, TBL, TML feeling all over it. But will hopefully learn and build on it

 

[Vector]

I thought we already knew this? Didn’t it come out around the HoF induction last year?

Also it means Aqua paying real money, so it’s possible it was never on the table anyhow.

I believe the report was there was the Panthers called Benning to see if a trade could be worked out but Benning declined. This is just concrete confirmation.

 

[F A N]

I believe the report was there was the Panthers called Benning to see if a trade could be worked out but Benning declined. This is just concrete confirmation.

You are referring to Sat's report in late 2022. This is more recent (during Luongo's RoH). There's some articles that make it sound like a direct quote from Luongo but there was no audio linked referenced. Anyone know where it came from/have the audio clip? Was it on 650>

I find it interesting that those who were defending Luongo's decision at the time (and I accepted this) talked about how he was built differently and wasn't the type to attend a physical every year and collect a paycheque. At the time, Luongo's camp didn't leak anything to Canucks media to clear up the issue. Being cynical, it would make sense for Luongo to say he was willing to go on LTIR to Vancouver local media knowing that a lot of Canucks fans were mad at him thinking he had screwed over the Canucks by not going on LTIR.

If we are to assume that both Sat's report and this current report are both accurate, it sounds like the Panthers were looking to get rid of Luongo's cap hit and wanted to trade him back to the Canucks. The Canucks decided not to trade for Luongo. So having considered Florida's offer, there would have been no need for Benning to call up Tallon when Luongo's camp alerted the Canucks that he was going to retire.

If I am to give Luongo the benefit of the doubt here, it sounds like Florida tried to trade Luongo's cap hit and when they can't get the deal they wanted, enticed Luongo to retire by rolling out the red carpet for him. I assume that Luongo would not have been able to work for the Panthers while being a member of the Vancouver Canucks. Others like Pronger were only able to work for the league.

If I am to question Luongo a bit here, what Luongo is saying here seems like a cop out. He says it's not his call but it is his call to retire and not collect the LTIR paycheque. Like literally. There's obviously a strong incentive for him to retire and get a head start on his post-playing career. If I had Luongo's wealth, I probably would have made the same choice rather than sit on the sidelines collecting that measly $3.68M (before taxes and without factoring what he would have earned as an executive). But 100% he could have gone on LTIR and collect the money dued to him had Luongo chose to.

So just to summarize then, if we are to believe everything here, then we have the following timeline (from a pro-Canucks point of view):

Luongo decides to retire, Florida doesn't want Luongo's contract and offers to trade Luongo back to the Canucks, the Canucks decided not to take Florida's offer, Florida forces Luongo to retire rather than go on LTIR (Luongo says it wasn't his call), Luongo gets his agent to let the Canucks know he's being forced to retire rather than go on LTIR so Canucks can save Luongo from losing money, the Canucks having already spoken to the Panthers do nothing, Luongo retires and gets the red carpet treatment to join Panthers' management immediately, the Canucks are saddled with Luongo's recapture penalty.

 

[F A N]

Yes - i think it would be stupid to trade him for a middle first and a 2nd round draft pick. the context being what you want your team to go for next year + lack of viable age relative replacements likely available

And that's fine. And again, that is basically what Ottawa got for Stone but they traded him near the deadline instead of earlier.

that's like saying i could use my draft picks to add to my prospect pool. yes, you could recoup some assets if you're trading your cornerstone forward..

Yes but you and RandV were the ones responding to that statement I made as if you disagreed. So you actually agree then (just that you and RandV wanted to say that the return in assets will be negligible compared to the might of Petey).

ottawa's return for karlsson? a 3rd overall plus other stuff is different than a middle first and a 2nd. are you referencing the karlsson package as 3rd overall + other stuff or are you referencing the karlsson package as 'what if it turns out to be a player like stutzle and norris plus other maybes'. the latter is odd where the former is realistic.

3rd overall and a bunch of other stuff for pettersson, i would have to see what draft it is, who is top 3 and learn about all the other crap attached to it

I'm not even sure if you read my posts before you respond. But let me get this straight, so even if the team trades Petey in a package that includes a 3rd overall pick (for example they trade him this summer) you would still have to think whether the return is negligible? Again, it sounds like you're just taking the position that if the team is forced to trade Petey then any return would be negligible.

Oh and Karlsson's package included Chris Tierney, Norris (who was highly regarded and a former mid 1st pick), Demelo, a 1st in 2019/2020, higher of two 2nd round picks (they had Florida's), They also have a conditional pick or two (one being a 2nd round pick if Karlsson re-signs). That's likely the sort of package management targeted when shopping Miller.

 

[andora]

Yes but you and RandV were the ones responding to that statement I made as if you disagreed. So you actually agree then (just that you and RandV wanted to say that the return in assets will be negligible compared to the might of Petey).

Yes i agree that they could make a trade and receive compensation

And that's fine. And again, that is basically what Ottawa got for Stone but they traded him near the deadline instead of earlier.


Yes but you and RandV were the ones responding to that statement I made as if you disagreed. So you actually agree then (just that you and RandV wanted to say that the return in assets will be negligible compared to the might of Petey).



I'm not even sure if you read my posts before you respond. But let me get this straight, so even if the team trades Petey in a package that includes a 3rd overall pick (for example they trade him this summer) you would still have to think whether the return is negligible? Again, it sounds like you're just taking the position that if the team is forced to trade Petey then any return would be negligible.

'It sounds like'
I said what i would literally do. Receive offer, learn what offer entails, decide. If you were to have listed a comparable offer with current players i could have said yes or no

Also what was san joses pick projected as instead of hindsight 3rd overall.. werent they still winning 40 plus

Oh and Karlsson's package included Chris Tierney, Norris (who was highly regarded and a former mid 1st pick), Demelo, a 1st in 2019/2020, higher of two 2nd round picks (they had Florida's), They also have a conditional pick or two (one being a 2nd round pick if Karlsson re-signs). That's likely the sort of package management targeted when shopping Miller.

Ok

 

[MS]

^clearly Jim Benning ran out of time

The whole situation at the time made no sense so a few of us here were speculating that Benning totally bungled it (likely not even being smart enough to understand the situation) and it's nice to have the confirmation that that indeed is what happened.

What a f***ing moron.

 

[arttk]

The whole situation at the time made no sense so a few of us here were speculating that Benning totally bungled it (likely not even being smart enough to understand the situation) and it's nice to have the confirmation that that indeed is what happened.

What a f***ing moron.

I am pretty sure some Benning white knights will come and defend this.

 

[Jyrki21]

The whole situation at the time made no sense so a few of us here were speculating that Benning totally bungled it (likely not even being smart enough to understand the situation) and it's nice to have the confirmation that that indeed is what happened.

What a f***ing moron.

It could literally just be that Aquilini said no way, though. For all his background, he doesn't seem to understand what "investment" or "sunk costs" are, and would see it as just "paying someone not to play".