Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

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So frustrating being a fan of this team. I think the team needs to actually fix its cap problems first and get some ELC contracts on the roster. But will instead sell more Future to fix more past and trade out some crap Contracts to get marginal players on inflated salary.

Sigh
That would require the team to admit it needs to take a season to step back.

This team has shown it isn't even willing to admit it needs to take a step back for two months to reset for a generational talent at the top of the draft. We're in for a long ride.
 
2. What people here won't admit to is that the level of discourse surrounding him is so ignorant and vitriolic that it's dull and unnuanced.

2 things can be true at once.

1. He was a stooge of the owner and was largely a catastrophe here (again, I say largely because I'm a biiig fan of Petey and Hughes), he was one of the worst GMs in the league many of the years here and at times, particularly early in his tenure, he was worst by far.

but, 2: there were also mitigating circumstances that don't obfuscate his incompetence or lack of spine, but do delineate the moves that were pure incompetence and the ones that were due to being hamstrung by mercurial, incompetent, rash decrees by ownership.
I do think that Benning's skillset plus the strategic mandate that Ownership gave him was the perfect cocktail of generationally bad GMing.

I acknowledge there is a lot of vitriol around JB, and it's understandable when a figure hurts a franchise you love so badly.

And I do avoid attacking Benning's character because of the very vitriol you mentioned. He got the cash bag from Aqua, and I can't blame him for that. If there is anything I would attack his character/integrity on, it is probably how he threw his benefactor Linden under the bus when it came to the power struggle of where this team was headed back in 2017. That's my speculation of course, I'm sure in private he's a nice guy to his friends/family.

In any case, I'll inject some additional nuance to the reasons why when we take a closer look at his incompetence, i'm more inclined to think it is generational.

I'm not even going to talk about the OEL trade the Myers contract or the Eriksson/Beagle/Roussel contracts here. There's plenty of other stuff to pick apart.

1.) Bad short term micro decisions that cascade into bigger future problems
There's so many that I think I can take a micro transaction and illustrate just the branches of damage it does.

I think of the Poolman extension in July 2021 when Petey was asking for a long term deal, which inevitably he signed a bridge in november 2021. This is no different than Calgary deciding to give Tkachuk a bridge because they wanted to keep Michael Frolik on the books, and look what happened to them.

Because Benning didn't even think a few months ahead, he spent $10 mil ($2.5M x 4) in cap space on Poolman and as a result, the team will eventually have to pay an extra $16-24 (Assuming we sign Petey at 10M +)mil in cap space to Petey because he's now a 100+ pt player at the end of his bridge deal.

Or we can lose Petey like Calgary did Tkachuk because we valued a depth guy in the moment over keeping the Franchise player long term.

And the ironic part is the Poolman contract was to replace Schmidt ($5.95M) who was to replace Tanev who signed at $4.5 M with Calgary. Kicking the can down the road with zero foresight.

2.) Driving executive talent away from the organization

This team has not been able to be nimble around the salary cap since firing Lawerence Gilman. And his refusal to give Judd Brackett greater autonomy at the draft table drove him away. You can believe what you like, but it was rumored that after the Juolevi fiasco, Benning was inclined to side with Bracket's recommendations on Petey in 2017 when he wanted Glass.

But an underrated firing was the Athletic trainer Mike Burnstein in 2015 to bring in Celebrini, who I think was disastrous for the team in man games lost, and played a part in devaluing Chris Tanev as an asset that Benning should have prioritized in 2020.


Man games lost in Cap $ during the Benning era (blue bar being average range)
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Chris Tanev's Games played during the Benning era.
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3.) Not properly setting up Utica/Abbotsford as a development tool, being impatient with letting Prospects marinate in the AHL for NHL results now

Benning may be praised for Petey and Hughes, but we're lucky enough that they're both talented enough to stick in the NHL. His impatience at getting results at the NHL level caused us to rush prospects and ruined their development curve, either making them zero value assets or losing them in trades and waivers. It's a miracle Hogs is still in the org given we never properly developed him to start. But I truly think Benning robbed himself of a potential top 6 player in McCann by rushing him then giving up on him.

A competent GM sees the farm team as a weapon, Benning saw it as a distraction.

I personally don't buy into Benning's drafting accolades when he's picking high enough in the top 10 that any of us with a hockey magazine can pick a Tkachuk at least 50% of the time.

Lord knows how many NHLers he's cost this org by refusing to develop them properly.

McCann
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Hogs
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Jake
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Gaudette
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Everybody focuses on the hopeless salary cap vice the Canucks were left in by the Benning regime.

But the current braintrust were ones who re-signed Boeser and Miller to big ticket contracts. And if the rumor mill is to believed--they tried to trade both of them. And for all we know, they're still trying.

Does this sound like a management group with 'a plan"?
Even if they caught that car they wouldn’t know what to do with it.

E8F27BEB-5972-4231-B482-F6304B485511.gif
 
maybe it’s just me but I find that it’s hard to forget the folks who supported Benning.

Especially the folks who continually try and play some moral high ground while simultaneously remarking that the quality of content is down. It’s incredible posters who post about that can’t recognize the crap they spew.

I don’t have to search these peoples histories. Their accounts are etched in my mind. Not everyone is Benning pointing a gun at you but some weren’t far off.
 
maybe it’s just me but I find that it’s hard to forget the folks who supported Benning.

Especially the folks who continually try and play some moral high ground while simultaneously remarking that the quality of content is down. It’s incredible posters who post about that can’t recognize the crap they spew.

I don’t have to search these peoples histories. Their accounts are etched in my mind. Not everyone is Benning pointing a gun at you but some weren’t far off.

What I find bizarre are the folks who complain about the 'quality' of posting or what's written about subjects on here and then:

- Make really incendiary, immature comments about Gillis (surely not to rile up folks critical of Benning and surely not to engage in behavior that they were just decrying)
- Straight up say that they don't want to put any effort into meaningful discussion (but then make trolling posts stroking themselves off about the looks on people's faces)
- Complain no one wants to take them seriously (but when people do, they flat out ignore it. Surely not because they're just interested in simple agitation and not meaningful discussion. That's just crazy)
- Complain when people bring up prior posts they had made and say they are being 'bullied' or 'harassed' when it's 100% germane to the current discussion. Eg, "I never said the Canucks were going to be a playoff contending team" "Well, this post from last offseason has you saying the exact opposite (but then will take an extremely minor comment made by someone on a Z-Tier prospect and hold that over as proof that that person doesn't know what they're talking about.)
- Etc.


It's crazy that people get irked about bringing up old posts when a) it's 2023 and basic knowledge of search engines is like something taught to f***ing toddlers these days b) what the hell are you supposed to base a discussion on? We're not folks whose memories reset at midnight. Context matters.

To put it another way, no, it's not just you.
 
You spent 8 years confidently defending Benning while talking down to others who didn’t. Your opinion doesn’t really carry any weight :)
None of their opinions matter at all, not one bit, the few I can see just scroll right past.

Benning bros were the lowest common denominator of the idiocracy.
Almost immediately, but certainly after 2016 he was so obviously, clearly an inept Dunning Kruger moron.
 
Also, is this really the 5th youngest team in the NHL?

If so, should we not be expected to improve next year?
 
Tanev i get...but why are people even still sour over losing Toffoli?


Like he's older Boeser. I don't want that contract on the books. He's not a good player. He's not dynamic, he doesn't drive anything. He's a 1-dimensional goal scorer who goes completely missing otherwise.



Tanev i'd take back in a heartbeat. That was a mistake letting him go. We've been looking for a replacement ever since. But Toffoli can go kick rocks in Calgary for all i care.

I think it was more that people managed to convince themselves that they couldn't possibly be that f***ing dumb that they thought that was a team where you trade a decent prospect and a 2nd rounder for a rental. Like, the team wouldn't have even made the playoffs if not for the weird Covid format.

As a result, I think people managed to convince themselves that the team saw Toffoli as part of the future, and then it turned out that they didn't even offer him a contract and the grim reality that, yes, they were that f***ing dumb kind of hit everyone over the head once again.
 
Polytheistic board.
Somebody needs to take the Buddha handle

I think it was more that people managed to convince themselves that they couldn't possibly be that f***ing dumb that they thought that was a team where you trade a decent prospect and a 2nd rounder for a rental. Like, the team wouldn't have even made the playoffs if not for the weird Covid format.

As a result, I think people managed to convince themselves that the team saw Toffoli as part of the future, and then it turned out that they didn't even offer him a contract and the grim reality that, yes, they were that f***ing dumb kind of hit everyone over the head once again.
Impressive how they managed to exceed expectation over and over again.
 
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In the end, we sucked for both seasons new management has been on board, both seasons were over by thanksgiving and were absolutely brutal to watch.

We didn't accumulate any significant assets over that time despite it being obvious two years out that this draft was incredibly deep and the perfect draft to try and stockpile for, despite the general agreement that this 2023 draft fits the core's timeline, and despite still trying to trade the main two trade chips we had right from the start (Horvat/Miller) albeit way too late.

And despite the general love for this incredibly poopy argument, no one could possibly convince me that being 11th and 15th these last two years is in any significant way superior for keeping Pettersson than finishing 6-9th (at worst) and having sold anything with value in mgmt's first couple months here.

So here we are heading into the 2023-2024 season missing half our picks in the first two rounds over the next two years, still talking about trading more picks for shortcuts and wondering how we'll dump cap over the summer.

The same conversation it's been every summer for the last 7 years except for the first time, there isn't a viable alternative strategy, and thanks to being incredibly shortsighted and lacking in strategic thinking, there's still less assets available to use than there are bad contracts to move.

I guess the best thing I can say about any of this is that the teams absolute insistence on living day by day, having no foresight whatsoever, and having absolutely zero patience the second they get their hands on any cap space or draft capital is finally in alignment with the only strategic direction available to the team for the next 2-4 years.
 
In the end, we sucked for both seasons new management has been on board, both seasons were over by thanksgiving and were absolutely brutal to watch.

We didn't accumulate any significant assets over that time despite it being obvious two years out that this draft was incredibly deep and the perfect draft to try and stockpile for, despite the general agreement that this 2023 draft fits the core's timeline, and despite still trying to trade the main two trade chips we had right from the start (Horvat/Miller) albeit way too late.

And despite the general love for this incredibly poopy argument, no one could possibly convince me that being 11th and 15th these last two years is in any significant way superior for keeping Pettersson than finishing 6-9th (at worst) and having sold anything with value in mgmt's first couple months here.

So here we are heading into the 2023-2024 season missing half our picks in the first two rounds over the next two years, still talking about trading more picks for shortcuts and wondering how we'll dump cap over the summer.

The same conversation it's been every summer for the last 7 years except for the first time, there isn't a viable alternative strategy, and thanks to being incredibly shortsighted and lacking in strategic thinking, there's still less assets available to use than there are bad contracts to move.

I guess the best thing I can say about any of this is that the teams absolute insistence on living day by day, having no foresight whatsoever, and having absolutely zero patience the second they get their hands on any cap space or draft capital is finally in alignment with the only strategic direction available to the team for the next 2-4 years.

This past year is quite a bit on them but we were still handcuffed by OEL + Myers who were basically dead money without being dead.

I'm also frustrated to a certain extent we didn't punt on the re-build/tool/set v2.5. I think Hronek was a good target, but losing the 1st hurt. I am of the mind as well, if you keep Petey and Hughes, you are basically putting them in a position the next 3-4 years where nothing meaningful can/will happen. I don't like being pessimistic, but that's my outlook. Barring a miracle, the team as built can't really do much outside maybe win a single round.

I don't lay this at management's feet, I'm going higher. It's been 10 years now without being legitimate contenders - and we are doing the thing we were doing when it started...chasing the 8th seed. There is no long-term vision, and the short-term vision just can not be met realistically and in fact, hinders any meaningful operations related to why you go into the business - to win a Cup and make money. They want all of it to fall into place magically but it won't because no team has ever done it. No team has brought itself up from the dungeon of the league into contending relevancy year-over-year without sacrifice, especially in the short-term. I'm not sure why ownership think they are going to be the first to do it. Provided that is what they think.
 
In the end, we sucked for both seasons new management has been on board, both seasons were over by thanksgiving and were absolutely brutal to watch.

We didn't accumulate any significant assets over that time despite it being obvious two years out that this draft was incredibly deep and the perfect draft to try and stockpile for, despite the general agreement that this 2023 draft fits the core's timeline, and despite still trying to trade the main two trade chips we had right from the start (Horvat/Miller) albeit way too late.

And despite the general love for this incredibly poopy argument, no one could possibly convince me that being 11th and 15th these last two years is in any significant way superior for keeping Pettersson than finishing 6-9th (at worst) and having sold anything with value in mgmt's first couple months here.

So here we are heading into the 2023-2024 season missing half our picks in the first two rounds over the next two years, still talking about trading more picks for shortcuts and wondering how we'll dump cap over the summer.

The same conversation it's been every summer for the last 7 years except for the first time, there isn't a viable alternative strategy, and thanks to being incredibly shortsighted and lacking in strategic thinking, there's still less assets available to use than there are bad contracts to move.

I guess the best thing I can say about any of this is that the teams absolute insistence on living day by day, having no foresight whatsoever, and having absolutely zero patience the second they get their hands on any cap space or draft capital is finally in alignment with the only strategic direction available to the team for the next 2-4 years.

This past year is quite a bit on them but we were still handcuffed by OEL + Myers who were basically dead money without being dead.

I'm also frustrated to a certain extent we didn't punt on the re-build/tool/set v2.5. I think Hronek was a good target, but losing the 1st hurt. I am of the mind as well, if you keep Petey and Hughes, you are basically putting them in a position the next 3-4 years where nothing meaningful can/will happen. I don't like being pessimistic, but that's my outlook. Barring a miracle, the team as built can't really do much outside maybe win a single round.

I don't lay this at management's feet, I'm going higher. It's been 10 years now without being legitimate contenders - and we are doing the thing we were doing when it started...chasing the 8th seed. There is no long-term vision, and the short-term vision just can not be met realistically and in fact, hinders any meaningful operations related to why you go into the business - to win a Cup and make money. They want all of it to fall into place magically but it won't because no team has ever done it. No team has brought itself up from the dungeon of the league into contending relevancy year-over-year without sacrifice, especially in the short-term. I'm not sure why ownership think they are going to be the first to do it. Provided that is what they think.
We are beyond cooked. Nothing anytime soon matters for this franchise. There isn’t a single, solitary chance this owner will let that happen. If you aren’t vapid enough to be satisfied by a few #anythingcanhappen seasons, you’re already checked out for a few years easily.
 
Also, about JEB's character, some seems to think that hey at least he's a nice guy. From what I see, however, there are indications that he's really not that nice of a guy ta all. It's also possible that he's completely delusional about his ability to manipulate people and situation to his advantage, without knowing that every time he tries, he just ends up looking even more like a pitiful bumbling asshole.

- He tried to direct blames on the team's poor performance on Abbotsford flood.
- He brought his family being stressed into the pile of excuses.
- Tanev and Stecher extensions were handled very poorly, rumors at the time said it got personal, and ugly. Really unsure how credible this is or how bad it got.

Now, these to me are indications, but I wouldn't say they are direct evidence of JEB's poor character. I personally believes that he IS a person of questionable character and moral values. I could totally be wrong, yes. Of course, this could just be, to the surprise of no one, that his level of incompetence and self-unawareness reached to such an astronomical level, that it's becoming hard to tell if these actions are actually result of lack of morals, or just sheer incompetence.
 
Actually crazy how many staff Jim has poached from the Penguins (Former employer). I'm surprised there's no backlash? or at least more chatter about this? has anyone ever gotten in trouble for this type of thing in the NHL?
 
This just popped in to my head for what ever reason.


Lets say instead of hiring JR, we hired a nobody we've never heard of before.

Then lets say we have the exact same year we had...

With miss management on every level of the organization:
- The Miller / Boeser / Mihkeyev contracts
- The HR lawsuit
- Forced to trade a 2nd to get cap compliant
- Boeser scratch for cancer awareness night
- The handling of Bruce
- Number of pseudoscience health department hires -> the following blunders related to player health
- The meh return on Horvat trade
- Followed shortly by the baffling Hronek trade
- And then to end the year by playing their way out of a high value pick and getting fined for breaking offseason training related rules

I bet I am even forgetting something...


But how horrified would you be if it was not a proven successful manager in JR, who accomplished all this. Objectively, this has been one of the worst years of hockey management we have ever endured. If it was lead by a no-name president / gm I would expect there to be changes this summer.
 
The transition from a horrendous imbecile decade to new management has been too slow, too similar, boring, and painful to endure.

I don't see much to be hopeful for or really excited about barring some kind of offseason miracle roster turnover and cap flexibility.

They've so far shown few indications of being as competent as necessary for success in those (any) areas so I guess wait and see a few more months, but shortly into next season it'll be two years of new management and basically the exact same results. With a horribly boring product to watch. No picks. No (top) prospects. Lots of busts. Big contracts and extensions rn and coming soon. Yikes.
 
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On the other hand he has played organized hockey of some sort.

Would that make you reconsider?
You spent 8 years confidently defending Benning while talking down to others who didn’t. Your opinion doesn’t really carry any weight :)

It's so interesting that all of these sort of cowardly gang up posts (often with people not even quoting whom they're talking about) are allowed on this forum, it feels like they're only protected by how ineffectual they are.

Like I...guess? You're trying to gang up and bully me or something?

It's tacky, tacky weak ass shit and I'd much rather someone speak to me directly.

I know this is in response to me criticizing the level of discourse here but let me say, most people have been chased away from the boards by how poor it's gotten and nobody who's been around for a long time thinks we're in a peak. Sometimes the truth is the truth and part of it are these sad witch hunts.

Can we talk about hockey or is it more sniping through 7 year old posts of mine, not even quoting it, just 'liking' it as a passive aggressive 'gotcha' vibe that we're continuing to seek here?
 
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