Management Thread | 5th Youngest Team in the League Edition

[MarkusNaslund19]

And yet, anytime somebody disagree with you or Benning, you play the "what level of hockey have you played" card.

After 7+ years of defending Benning, your "my playing experience makes me more knowledgeable than you" schtick doesn't really hold any weight anymore, don't you think? You just openly admitted that you initially like the Eriksson signing, even though most people (most doesn't play competitive hockey I'm sure) hated it right off the bat. Shouldn't that tell you that maybe high level hockey skills does not equate to high level hockey analysis?

Anyways I'll stop posting on this topic. It was never my intention to make anybody feel bullied or ganged up on, and I sincerely apologize if it came across that way. I just didn't like the way you talked down to people over the years. You being a Benning sympathizer or wrong or whatever doesn't matter at all to me.

That's nonsense that most people didn't like it.

Many disagreed with the timing of it but nobody was predicting that Ericsson coming off a 30 goal year would be an unmitigated disaster.

How on earth, after being so wrong for so long, does it still not register with you that you are not the immunologist in this anecdote.

Playing hockey and running an organization require COMPLETELY different skill sets. COMPLETELY different skill set. There is almost no overlap. Apart from some very generic things like being driven etc.

This is also complete nonsense. I have been correct many many times as well. In fact more times than I have been wrong.

This absolute strawman nonsense that because I pushed back against hyperbole that I thought Benning was the best gm in the league is just not rooted in reality.

 

[Intangibos]

What are you talking about..?....?..Own up to what..?..Nobody is arguing that Bennings time was up...The majority of the stuff i was arguing against was the utter hyperbole and BS that was predominate at the the time (especially in this thread)..Even you claimed that that Benning didnt make a single good trade....Unlike a lot of posters here , I leave my post history up..Most of my debates I presented with accredited sources.

I'm not anti-Benning, or anti Gillis,Nonis, Burke or anyone else.

A word to all...If anybody feels I've let this board down with my comments, or you dont like my commentary. (feel free to ignore me)....Excuse my French, but I honestly dont give a flying f*** what you think..I'm not apologizing for my opinions.

Its a hockey discussion board ..and there's going to always be opinions that dont correlate to your own.

Hyperbole like
-Benning is arguably the worst GM in the league and one of the worst ever (True)
-We will never compete with Benning running this team (True)
-Benning is completely incapable of managing the cap (True)
-The cap is important to a rebuilding team (True)
-Making our team objectively worse for "veteran presence" from garbage fringe players is going to hurt this team moving forward (True)
-Benning is trading away assets for garbage bandaid pieces that don't move the needle forward but maybe actually backwards (True)

You defended the Sbisa re-signing, you defended trading McCann for Gudbranson, you defended extending Gudbranson, you defended acquiring Sutter, you defended trading Forsling, you defended passing on Tkachuk, you defended taking Virtanen.
You're the HFCanucks champion and first ballot hall of famer clueless poster.

Literally for years you pushed back against every criticism against Benning and then have the audacity to claim you're some neutral party with an enlightened centrist viewpoint who agrees that "Benning's time was up". Somehow you miss the point that the majority of the posters here realized that his time was up after 2 seasons here and you were the type of poster who kept defending his actions with your "wait and see" attitude. Well we waited and we saw exactly what we expected because unlike you we had the foresight to see literally the most obvious outcome imaginable. Enjoy your Vancouver Canucks, remember that this is the quality of team that you pushed for.

It's amazing that after all the years of people trying to explain to you why Benning was a dogshit manager running this franchise into the ground, you try to pass it off as "hyperbole". People took the time to break it down for you piece by piece so even the most casual unaware fans could digest the information, but you continually pushed back against "Benning haters" as if we had a personal vendetta against him. No, it was a realistic analysis of Benning's management. You just think it was "hyperbole" because you are clueless.

 

[geebaan]

Hyperbole like
-Benning is arguably the worst GM in the league and one of the worst ever (True)
-We will never compete with Benning running this team (True)
-Benning is completely incapable of managing the cap (True)
-The cap is important to a rebuilding team (True)
-Making our team objectively worse for "veteran presence" from garbage fringe players is going to hurt this team moving forward (True)
-Benning is trading away assets for garbage bandaid pieces that don't move the needle forward but maybe actually backwards (True)

You defended the Sbisa re-signing, you defended trading McCann for Gudbranson, you defended extending Gudbranson, you defended acquiring Sutter, you defended trading Forsling, you defended passing on Tkachuk, you defended taking Virtanen.
You're the HFCanucks champion and first ballot hall of famer clueless poster.

Literally for years you pushed back against every criticism against Benning and then have the audacity to claim you're some neutral party with an enlightened centrist viewpoint who agrees that "Benning's time was up". Somehow you miss the point that the majority of the posters here realized that his time was up after 2 seasons here and you were the type of poster who kept defending his actions with your "wait and see" attitude. Well we waited and we saw exactly what we expected because unlike you we had the foresight to see literally the most obvious outcome imaginable. Enjoy your Vancouver Canucks, remember that this is the quality of team that you pushed for.

It's amazing that after all the years of people trying to explain to you why Benning was a dogshit manager running this franchise into the ground, you try to pass it off as "hyperbole". People took the time to break it down for you piece by piece so even the most casual unaware fans could digest the information, but you continually pushed back against "Benning haters" as if we had a personal vendetta against him. No, it was a realistic analysis of Benning's management. You just think it was "hyperbole" because you are clueless.

The bold sums all of what’s been talked about for me

 

[Hit the post]

What does that even matter!? Benning played in the NHL and had a pretty successful career to boot, doesn't mean he is any good at making hockey decisions at a managerial level. It's actually worse that somebody with so much experience playing high level hockey cannot recognize the decline in OEL, or that Eriksson was propped up by his linemates and PP usage, or that trading picks for prime/past-prime players while your team is at the bottom of the league is a bad idea, etc.

This whole idea that "I played competitive hockey so you should just listen to me" is so without merit. But the worse part is being condescending to others for years, then play the victim card at the end, I don't think people appreciate that.

Look at a different sport, the NBA. Michael Jordan being arguably the greatest but was absolutely horrible in management.

 

[andora]

Ugh.. benning is like a zombie disease at this point

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Ugh.. benning is like a zombie disease at this point

Revisionist history by Benning supporters to avoid looking bad after making countless terrible, bad faith arguments, is the real issue here.

 

[Hit the post]

Revisionist history by Benning supporters to avoid looking bad after making countless terrible, bad faith arguments, is the real issue here.

Willie Desjardins & Travis Green - the zenith of the Jethro Bodine empire.

/end of thread

 

[andora]

Revisionist history by Benning supporters to avoid looking bad after making countless terrible, bad faith arguments, is the real issue here.

Who f'n cares

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Foolish GM Alert:

 

[Hit the post]

Who f'n cares

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

Foolish GM Alert:

I don’t even know what expendable assets we would give up to move up to 3rd overall.

11th overall + Lekkerimaki/Podkolzin + 2024 1st (top 5 protected)?

 

[rypper]

Foolish GM Alert:

Sounds like he's pandering to the Swedish media.

 

[valkynax]

Sounds like he's pandering to the Swedish media.

Sounds like old man yelling at cloud.

Seriously, what is with this guy???? Does he have to talk up everything that he doesn't plan to/cannot back up with results?

 

[rypper]

Sounds like old man yelling at cloud.

Seriously, what is with this guy???? Does he have to talk up everything that he doesn't plan to/cannot back up with results?

It's a tweet from a less then reputable source, where our Swedish gm says he likes a Swedish player to a Swedish media outlet. Hardly the kind of thing to get up in arms about.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

So while you feel a bit persecuted or attacked

I absolutely didn't feel 'persecuted' or 'attacked.' Like I said, I made an assumption because I was part of the prior discussion and was just continuing it.

But, uh, continue to ignore the original post I had made to you, continue to focus on petty squabbling and continue playing martyr.

.Unlike a lot of posters here , I leave my post history up..Most of my debates I presented with accredited sources.

This would mean something if you'd actually have discussions with folks or would use your 'accredited sources' properly. A real easy example: "I never said the Canucks were going to be a playoff team."

You just blatantly ignore things outright or misconstrue shit.

It's intellectual dishonesty and you're part of the crowd of hypocrites who complain about 'meaningful discourse' then engage in tactics that actively lowers the level of discourse.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

And I'm not saying you should appeal to my authority and blindly trust me because I can skate. I'm just saying that it does add ~something~ to the conversation and the fact that we're literally on an NHL HOCKEY messageboard and knowing how to play hockey is being discarded as irrelevant to informing opinions is Q-anon levels of nonsense.

I agree with this, for what it's worth. It's akin to someone who practices Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu having a perspective on a discussion about restraints/deadly force/whatever that happens on a weekly basis these days.

Someone who hasn't played the game at even a decently high level is going to have a perspective that's different from someone who did. It doesn't make one person infallible over the other and the important thing is having a range of perspectives that can inform a decision.

Which is something that Gillis was lauded for--his background as a lawyer saw the value in competing opinions and 'making a case' for something. We had the complete opposite with Benning, who trimmed and pruned out dissenting voices until he had nothing but an echo chamber or guys he could 'have a beer with.'

E: Also, because I'm in between meetings ATM,

Confirmed Signing with Link: - [VAN] Canucks sign free agent F Andrei Kuzmenko (1 year, $950k)

Victoria is still 10x nicer than anywhere in Alberta. I'm from Edmonton, living in Vancouver and have clients in Vic - so I know all 3 very well. Edmonton & Calgary are so much better then Vic its not even funny. Three type of people in Vic - drunk college students, old people and crackheads...

forums.hfboards.com

You: "People just bring up Benning unprompted! Why can't we just have a nice hockey discussion?"

Also you: "I'm going to start ranting and raving about HF Canucks completely unprompted in a main board thread talking about the Canucks signing a player."

Many such cases.

 

[Intangibos]

And I'm not saying you should appeal to my authority and blindly trust me because I can skate. I'm just saying that it does add ~something~ to the conversation and the fact that we're literally on an NHL HOCKEY messageboard and knowing how to play hockey is being discarded as irrelevant to informing opinions is Q-anon levels of nonsense.

This board (in regards to hockey management, Benning, Gillis, signings and cap management etc) isn't about discussing how to play hockey, how to teach people to play hockey, or how to improve hockey skills. This board is about discussing building a hockey team and a lot of that has to do with numbers, strategy and understanding how things trend. Playing hockey is more about what's happening right now on the ice, the people who you've been arguing with for the past several years are talking about what's going to be happening over the next few seasons.

You don't have to be a soldier to be a good war strategist. Experience as a soldier would help with understanding how your troops will perform, what they need, how morale will affect your army and so on, but being a soldier doesn't mean you can be a general and a hockey is a lot easier than soldiering. There are plenty of soldiers throughout history that are no doubt unable to grasp a lot of the strategy that goes into planning a war, and I suspect you're the hockey equivalent of those guys.

Quite frankly your experience as a player adds almost nothing to conversations about team management and building a hockey team. If this was a thread about a player where you were weighing in on how a player could improve their skating, or their shot, or good/bad habits you've noticed on the ice, or what mistakes they make when playing in a system etc then your hockey experience would contribute a ton of value to the conversation. That's not what this is, and that's not what people have a problem with.

 

[andora]

This board (in regards to hockey management, Benning, Gillis, signings and cap management etc) isn't about discussing how to play hockey, how to teach people to play hockey, or how to improve hockey skills. This board is about discussing building a hockey team and a lot of that has to do with numbers, strategy and understanding how things trend. Playing hockey is more about what's happening right now on the ice, the people who you've been arguing with for the past several years are talking about what's going to be happening over the next few seasons.

You don't have to be a soldier to be a good war strategist. Experience as a soldier would help with understanding how your troops will perform, what they need, how morale will affect your army and so on, but being a soldier doesn't mean you can be a general and a hockey is a lot easier than soldiering. There are plenty of soldiers throughout history that are no doubt unable to grasp a lot of the strategy that goes into planning a war, and I suspect you're the hockey equivalent of those guys.

Quite frankly your experience as a player adds almost nothing to conversations about team management and building a hockey team. If this was a thread about a player where you were weighing in on how a player could improve their skating, or their shot, or good/bad habits you've noticed on the ice, or what mistakes they make when playing in a system etc then your hockey experience would contribute a ton of value to the conversation. That's not what this is, and that's not what people have a problem with.

To be fair .. this is incredibly passive and dismissive.. only because of how he has tied his experience in with making pointa before..

He has tried to connect the dressing room to management as a factor in decisions.. trying to make connections

Actually just read it and it is very dismissive and condescending in my opinion. It is always nice to be told why you shouldnt participate.. people appreciate that

 

[Intangibos]

To be fair .. this is incredibly passive and dismissive.. only because of how he has tied his experience in with making pointa before..

He has tried to connect the dressing room to management as a factor in decisions.. trying to make connections

Actually just read it and it is very dismissive and condescending in my opinion. It is always nice to be told why you shouldnt participate.. people appreciate that

He can participate. I welcome his participation. I don't even remember him from the Benning arguments. I'm explaining why I think his playing hockey is mostly irrelevant to an analysis of hockey management and that opinion is not "Q-level nonsense". In fact, I think he started it off by being incredible dismissive and condescending by referring to that opinion as "Q-level nonsense". He was condescending and dismissive, and in spite of that I was mostly polite with a single jab in my post. I could have dunked on him, but I even provided an example of where is experience is actually valuable. I was being nice.

 

[MS]

Jim Benning wasn't someone who was slightly on one side of the good/bad ledger or the other and for whom there were legitimate arguments. He was probably the worst GM in NHL history. He was an abject idiot. He was a coward who had the leadership skills of a potato. He had absolutely no idea what he was doing and this should have been obvious to anyone from a year or so into his regime.

People who were still defending him in 2021 are like the people who were still saying that Wayne Gretzky sucked in 1985. You got locked into a really bad position and instead of getting out of it just kept doubling down more and more until it reached the point of absurdity. And you don't really get to get out of it by saying 'oh, I guess his time was up in the end' or by dissecting some of the reasons you might have supported some individual moves. Unless you're out there saying 'HOLY SHIT did I get that wrong, and I'm making efforts to show an understanding of how I got it so wrong' I think it's fair that people are dubious and kind of annoyed.

___________

On playing the game :

Absolutely it makes a difference when understanding some of the things that are happening on the ice. As an example, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people angry about a hit read miles more intent into it than there actually is because they haven't played the game and don't understand how quick it happens and a bodycheck is literally 'see a target->drop shoulder->hope to get a good piece' happening in literally like a quarter of a second.

But as for playing the game helping to evaluate management and team building? Yeah, no. Doesn't mean a thing.

 

[valkynax]

Jim Benning wasn't someone who was slightly on one side of the good/bad ledger or the other and for whom there were legitimate arguments. He was probably the worst GM in NHL history. He was an abject idiot. He was a coward who had the leadership skills of a potato. He had absolutely no idea what he was doing and this should have been obvious to anyone from a year or so into his regime.

People who were still defending him in 2021 are like the people who were still saying that Wayne Gretzky sucked in 1985. You got locked into a really bad position and instead of getting out of it just kept doubling down more and more until it reached the point of absurdity. And you don't really get to get out of it by saying 'oh, I guess his time was up in the end' or by dissecting some of the reasons you might have supported some individual moves. Unless you're out there saying 'HOLY SHIT did I get that wrong, and I'm making efforts to show an understanding of how I got it so wrong' I think it's fair that people are dubious and kind of annoyed.

___________

On playing the game :

Absolutely it makes a difference when understanding some of the things that are happening on the ice. As an example, one of my biggest pet peeves is when people angry about a hit read miles more intent into it than there actually is because they haven't played the game and don't understand how quick it happens and a bodycheck is literally 'see a target->drop shoulder->hope to get a good piece' happening in literally like a quarter of a second.

But as for playing the game helping to evaluate management and team building? Yeah, no. Doesn't mean a thing.

And to once again emphasize...

No, JEB was NOT some tragic hero who sacrificed his job to put the team into a better position for the future.

No, JEB was NOT a misunderstood genius who was coerced into doing everything he knew was wrong because of the owner.

No, JEB was NOT a nice guy.

And since you mentioned the "HOLY SHIT did I get that wrong" thing I must confess, that I, unlike the other brighter individuals, gave JEB a lot more benefit of the doubt than he deserved at the time. And by the name of GOD was I so very very wrong...

 

[Buresflyingelbow]

For anyone trying to defend Benning we were tanking while trying our best not to tank and spend to the Cap. We were a bottom 3-5 team while going all in for the playoffs.

 

[credulous]

some people are gonna be positive about whatever management does and some people are gonna be negative about whatever management does. i find it's better to avoid engaging with them because they're usually not actually open to changing their minds. sometimes it's hard to resist though

 

[valkynax]

some people are gonna be positive about whatever management does and some people are gonna be negative about whatever management does. i find it's better to avoid engaging with them because they're usually not actually open to changing their minds. sometimes it's hard to resist though

I actually find many poster objectively acknowledge the good things that JEB did. And at the time when good things happened, everyone celebrated. And if moves at the time were questionable but turned out well later, everyone celebrated.

Sadly these moments are all too rare...most times we just end up smoking gallons and gallons of copium...

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Hyperbole like
-Benning is arguably the worst GM in the league and one of the worst ever (True)
-We will never compete with Benning running this team (True)
-Benning is completely incapable of managing the cap (True)
-The cap is important to a rebuilding team (True)
-Making our team objectively worse for "veteran presence" from garbage fringe players is going to hurt this team moving forward (True)
-Benning is trading away assets for garbage bandaid pieces that don't move the needle forward but maybe actually backwards (True)

You defended the Sbisa re-signing, you defended trading McCann for Gudbranson, you defended extending Gudbranson, you defended acquiring Sutter, you defended trading Forsling, you defended passing on Tkachuk, you defended taking Virtanen.
You're the HFCanucks champion and first ballot hall of famer clueless poster.

Literally for years you pushed back against every criticism against Benning and then have the audacity to claim you're some neutral party with an enlightened centrist viewpoint who agrees that "Benning's time was up". Somehow you miss the point that the majority of the posters here realized that his time was up after 2 seasons here and you were the type of poster who kept defending his actions with your "wait and see" attitude. Well we waited and we saw exactly what we expected because unlike you we had the foresight to see literally the most obvious outcome imaginable. Enjoy your Vancouver Canucks, remember that this is the quality of team that you pushed for.

It's amazing that after all the years of people trying to explain to you why Benning was a dogshit manager running this franchise into the ground, you try to pass it off as "hyperbole". People took the time to break it down for you piece by piece so even the most casual unaware fans could digest the information, but you continually pushed back against "Benning haters" as if we had a personal vendetta against him. No, it was a realistic analysis of Benning's management. You just think it was "hyperbole" because you are clueless.

lol...I wasnt even a poster here to defend the Sbisa re signing, the McCann trade, ..the Virtanen selection. (I wanted Nylander) .acquiring Sutter..Forsling..?.I didn't even join here till October 2017..So unless you can source any of that .....you're completely talking out of your ass.

I wanted Tkachuk in 2016...I did not endorse the Gudbranson signing. ...Talking out of your ass again.



I've said for years, the team should have rebuilt in 2015.

At the time i joined here, things were finally starting to look up for the team..and the team was improving every year.

I'd say you're the clueless one, because you didnt even bother to research a whole page of verbal diarrhea ....(again, perfectly demonstrating the constant hyperbolic BS in this thread that gets eaten up, regardless if its true or not))...I'm not anti Benning, you and others are..if you dont like my opinions because they dont jibe with the Benning hating hysteria..Tough shit.