Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[rypper]

The reason why contending teams stay contending teams is they have a steady pipeline of players coming in to replace players who price themselves out. Or are traded for other players. Tampa and Pittsburgh are two great examples of this.

Maybe we can rely on the scouting staff to find these players but it gets infinitely harder when high picks are walking out the door constantly.

I've always wanted the team to become a sustained continuous contender not a let's get in and see happens, this year we're in next year not etc.

 

[Bubbles]

I absolutely hate your plan of building up prospect pool, patiently waiting for contracts to expire all in the name of cracking open a 5 year window, that likely wastes the first two years doing those first two things.

The Miller, Petey, and Hughes signing are all signaling a "going for it" mentality. Yet they want to maintain picks and build up the pool.

You can't have your cake and eat it (too).

I'd happily trade that "top 5" forward depth for defensive help.

 

[4Twenty]

The Miller, Petey, and Hughes signing are all signaling a "going for it" mentality. Yet they want to maintain picks and build up the pool.

You can't have your cake and eat it (too).

I'd happily trade that "top 5" forward depth for defensive help.

It’s wild the top 5 forward depth isn’t worth sweet FA in trade isn’t it?

 

[Bubbles]

It’s wild the top 5 forward depth isn’t worth sweet FA in trade isn’t it?

There's so much overrating of Canucks players it's hilarious.

It takes bold moves, and even trades that might hurt in the short term, to really get better. All of the off season moves were gimmes, no hard decisions at all. And somehow the most glaring need, Defense, was completely ignored.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The Miller, Petey, and Hughes signing are all signaling a "going for it" mentality. Yet they want to maintain picks and build up the pool.

You can't have your cake and eat it (too).

I'd happily trade that "top 5" forward depth for defensive help.

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

It’s wild the top 5 forward depth isn’t worth sweet FA in trade isn’t it?

There's a market for cost controlled players on ELC's, especially defensemen and youngish two-way forwards. Guys in their mid to late 20's that are exiting capfriendly deals, in a period where the cap has remained flat....? It's just shit timing for this franchise.

Just wait and see what happens when the cap shoots up and UFA's start commanding ridiculous salaries.

 

[4Twenty]

There's a market for cost controlled players on ELC's, especially defensemen and youngish two-way forwards. Guys in their mid to late 20's that are exiting capfriendly deals, in a period where the cap has remained flat....? It's just shit timing for this franchise.

Just wait and see what happens when the cap shoots up and UFA's start commanding ridiculous salaries.

Imagine what Demko asks for age 30 on his next deal in a likely $90m+ upper cap limit environment!

This is why people like myself think the window is short and it makes more sense to be aggressive now.

It’s also why I’m not opposed to giving Bo an 8 year deal in the $7-8m range. In 4 years when McDavid is up salaries are going to be crazy and the pacific is ripe in the next 1-3years but will it be later? Hard to say.

 

[credulous]

it's really hard for wingers to be impact players. if you're not a superstar who can manufacture your own offense then you are really only as good as the other players on the ice. that's why tkachuk and fiala returned so much and why there's no market for garland or pacioretty. garland might be objectively better than evan rodrigues or phil kessel but you can get those players for free and only sacrifice a marginal amount of production

 

[Peen]

View attachment 587341

.. that isn't even a controversial statement?

 

[racerjoe]

absolutely not. pittsburgh made that trade to bring in petry and needed to move out marino's money. that trade didn't happen because pittsburgh wanted ty smith

He was a big part for them. It was getting a cost controlled NHL player, it was swapping the salary of Marino for the salary of Ty Smith. My point is even with the cap space, we didn't have a Ty Smith.

Building up the assets?

Aren’t the picks already assets?

Just hoping for Hoglanders and Rathbone’s to become expendable feels like failing to see the forest through the trees.

I absolutely hate your plan of building up prospect pool, patiently waiting for contracts to expire all in the name of cracking open a 5 year window, that likely wastes the first two years doing those first two things.

This is exactly what I am talking about... you assume I mean X. If I don't agree with your point I must want this long drawn out rebuild, and that is not what I want.

In your example be aggressive and what do we have? Are we even a team that is better than we are now?

Cap space matters, but so does having the assets to move. I haven't seen realistic option that would make us contenders this season, so why rush?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

.. that isn't even a controversial statement?

Moving a single player is plausible, but moving both EP and JTM for D help is literally plugging one leak and springing another.

 

[Peen]

Moving a single player is plausible, but moving both EP and JTM for D help is literally plugging one leak and springing another.

There’s no way that’s how you interpreted what you bolded.

 

[credulous]

This is exactly what I am talking about... you assume I mean X. If I don't agree with your point I must want this long drawn out rebuild, and that is not what I want.

In your example be aggressive and what do we have? Are we even a team that is better than we are now?

Cap space matters, but so does having the assets to move. I haven't seen realistic option that would make us contenders this season, so why rush?

this is exactly the core of the disagreement

if you think the canucks are close but not quite there you should also think lekk, picks, rathbone and anything else that isn't on the active roster should be aggressively shopped to put this team over the top

if you think that's foolish because the canucks are not close enough then you should be okay with players like miller, boeser, pearson, garland going out the door (or never coming in the door in the case of mikheyev) to reorient for competitiveness 2, 3, 4 years from now

you can also hold both these positions at once if you think maybe the team is close maybe it's not but either way you should agree the team needs to commit to a path

what the team absolutely, 100% must not do is try to thread the needle of sacrificing basically nothing in the present while waiting for some point in the future to push all in. if you think the core is strong now then strike while the opportunity is present. if you think you lack the assets to get there then any move you can make that puts you in a better position at the time you think you'll have those assets is a move you shouldn't be opposed to making. if you do nothing but wait for the right time then you have to hope that you can stockpile assets and cap space faster than age, injury and entropy can strip value from the players you're holding and that's more or less impossible in a competitive league like the nhl

if your argument is that well the market for players sucks, the canucks have no moveable assets and there's no realistic way right now to make any moves then you should be even more frustrated with this management group. it's literally their job to realize this and figure out how to work around it. i'd give them more credit for trying something and failing than just throwing up their hands and hoping things turnaround

 

[4Twenty]

But I will say I think the people wanting to be more aggressive than we have been are assuming certain things.


The problem with being more aggressive is losing out on assets we already don't have. Our prospect pool is empty we can't afford to trade picks to free up cap. Anyone saying we should have is making us a worse team probably now and in the future.

I think we as fans can tend to be living in Fantasy hockey land too much and not the real world where certain deals just aren't there. This is why I am ok with being patient. We aren't a top 5-8 team this year, but that will take time.

You’re making assumptions also.


You’re also assuming patience will be rewarded.

But I don't think that is their plan either.


There is a large inbetween, and I think people are too focused on being on one side of it.

More assuming.

Here you are accusing people of being on one side of it.


Look in the mirror.

This is exactly what I am talking about... you assume I mean X. If I don't agree with your point I must want this long drawn out rebuild, and that is not what I want.

In your example be aggressive and what do we have? Are we even a team that is better than we are now?

Cap space matters, but so does having the assets to move. I haven't seen realistic option that would make us contenders this season, so why rush?

Pot meet kettle here.


Where did I even say cap space? I didn’t say anything about a long drawn out rebuild either. I mentioned doddling in the name of patience just being wasting time.

You’re preaching patience, so this year is part of the window but unlikely to be anything to write home about?

Defence got deeper into their 30’s. Miller did too.

I’m suggesting aggressively going for it. Paying a big price to make it happen is the aggression I’m talking about. Collecting a Ty Smith level asset by drafting it is worth less than the pick used on him.

Pay to improve the roster and kick the window open because with your patient approach by the time you feel you’re ready, the whole f***ing house needs a sprucing up and your engine player is mid 30’s and your top 5 goalie is UFA.

 

[racerjoe]

this is exactly the core of the disagreement

if you think the canucks are close but not quite there you should also think lekk, picks, rathbone and anything else that isn't on the active roster should be aggressively shopped to put this team over the top

if you think that's foolish because the canucks are not close enough then you should be okay with players like miller, boeser, pearson, garland going out the door (or never coming in the door in the case of mikheyev) to reorient for competitiveness 2, 3, 4 years from now

you can also hold both these positions at once if you think maybe the team is close maybe it's not but either way you should agree the team needs to commit to a path

what the team absolutely, 100% must not do is try to thread the needle of sacrificing basically nothing in the present while waiting for some point in the future to push all in. if you think the core is strong now then strike while the opportunity is present. if you think you lack the assets to get there then any move you can make that puts you in a better position at the time you think you'll have those assets is a move you shouldn't be opposed to making. if you do nothing but wait for the right time then you have to hope that you can stockpile assets and cap space faster than age, injury and entropy can strip value from the players you're holding and that's more or less impossible in a competitive league like the nhl

if your argument is that well the market for players sucks, the canucks have no moveable assets and there's no realistic way right now to make any moves then you should be even more frustrated with this management group. it's literally their job to realize this and figure out how to work around it. i'd give them more credit for trying something and failing than just throwing up their hands and hoping things turnaround

Yeah No... this is your thinking... not reality.

I don't think we are good enough or close... But YOUR Flipside is not based in reality. That is the issue. Again there is a middle ground that you seem to want to ignore.

You’re making assumptions also.


You’re also assuming patience will be rewarded.

More assuming.

Here you are accusing people of being on one side of it.


Look in the mirror.

Pot meet kettle here.


Where did I even say cap space? I didn’t say anything about a long drawn out rebuild either. I mentioned doddling in the name of patience just being wasting time.

You’re preaching patience, so this year is part of the window but unlikely to be anything to write home about?

Defence got deeper into their 30’s. Miller did too.

I’m suggesting aggressively going for it. Paying a big price to make it happen is the aggression I’m talking about. Collecting a Ty Smith level asset by drafting it is worth less than the pick used on him.

Pay to improve the roster and kick the window open because with your patient approach by the time you feel you’re ready, the whole f***ing house needs a sprucing up and your engine player is mid 30’s and your top 5 goalie is UFA.

First I am not assuming patients will be rewarded. There is a good chance it doesn't work out... I have never said anything else. I am no assuming anything. Look above. cred, said its either A or B... I am saying those are not the only options...

Tell me the assumptions I am making.

Also I didn't say you said anything about cap, I was only bringing cap space up specifically about the Marino trade.

In Broad strokes I am preaching patients... like Gillis did. Don't force a move to make a move. There are people on this board (don't assume I am meaning you) who said they were fine trading miller for that terrible NYR package.

Again GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE of your pay the price... it isn't realistic. Did you look at the prices paid to get rid of any of our cap dumps? Not only do I not see a way to make the team significantly better, you are then also assets you could use at the deadline to go for it, or pick up good value pieces. Its just not realistic with where this team is.

 

[TruGr1t]

There's a market for cost controlled players on ELC's, especially defensemen and youngish two-way forwards. Guys in their mid to late 20's that are exiting capfriendly deals, in a period where the cap has remained flat....? It's just shit timing for this franchise.

Just wait and see what happens when the cap shoots up and UFA's start commanding ridiculous salaries.

These are the exact type of players the Canucks will basically never have during this competitive window. They cannot trade for them, they won’t be afford to sign them, and they don’t have really any in the system. They especially have absolutely none of these players on defense.

Comparisons to 2007/08 are a total joke for this reason. In all likelihood, the team will peak this season and then bleed assets due to the cap and required contract extensions.

It will start with losing Horvat due to the Miller deal. Losing is probably the wrong word .. they chose Miller. These type of decisions will plague them for the next 5 years.

 

[MarkMM]

Yeah No... this is your thinking... not reality.

I don't think we are good enough or close... But YOUR Flipside is not based in reality. That is the issue. Again there is a middle ground that you seem to want to ignore.



First I am not assuming patients will be rewarded. There is a good chance it doesn't work out... I have never said anything else. I am no assuming anything. Look above. cred, said its either A or B... I am saying those are not the only options...

Tell me the assumptions I am making.

Also I didn't say you said anything about cap, I was only bringing cap space up specifically about the Marino trade.

In Broad strokes I am preaching patients... like Gillis did. Don't force a move to make a move. There are people on this board (don't assume I am meaning you) who said they were fine trading miller for that terrible NYR package.

Again GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE of your pay the price... it isn't realistic. Did you look at the prices paid to get rid of any of our cap dumps? Not only do I not see a way to make the team significantly better, you are then also assets you could use at the deadline to go for it, or pick up good value pieces. Its just not realistic with where this team is.

We don't have the full picture, but whenever the price to make a move that we've wanted to make is revealed, to me it's clear it's a good thing we didn't pay that price.

Waiting until an opportunity comes up that is worth us making a move is a dangerous strategy, but from what we've seen around the NHL it also may be the necessary strategy.

 

[credulous]

I don't think we are good enough or close... But YOUR Flipside is not based in reality. That is the issue. Again there is a middle ground that you seem to want to ignore.

what's the middle ground? wait for wingers to be worth something again? wait for the scouts and player development groups to find you a top 4 defender? wait for artem zub to reveal he's always been a canucks fan and sign a below market deal? these aren't realistic paths to contention and while you wait for them the surplus value you're getting from kuzmenko and rathbone and podkolzin has become market value and the majority of your roster is moving away from their peak not towards it

 

[rypper]

A good middle ground would have been to trade Miller for, let's call them, "advanced futures" instead of committing 50m + to a 30 year old.

What are advanced futures? A player that hasn't quite solidified themselves as a NHL regular yet but are completely on the cusp. You're not waiting years for them to develop. You're offering them an opportunity their team can't.

You're not trying to acquire a Byram or even a Schneider. The dip in perceived trade value prevents that. You're going to a team like LA and picking whichever RHD you like best and basing a trade around them (plus other pieces.) That RHD is in the lineup this year. Use the cap space saved to sign a 3rd line center like a Rodrigues.

The team is still competitive this year, still chasing a playoff spot (hopefully) but are in a better position future wise as well.

(LA makes that trade because they have an abundance of RHD in their system, and are looking for that push to the next level. Miller could have been the center to bridge between Kopitar retiring and their prospect group breaking out.)

 

[credulous]

A good middle ground would have been to trade Miller for, let's call them, "advanced futures" instead of committing 50m + to a 30 year old.

...

this isn't a middle ground. this is the approach the team should be taking in my opinion. concede you aren't going to the finals this year or next, move out players who have significantly more value today than they will in 3 years and try to stay flexible so you can make aggressive moves to get better when the opportunity presents itself

the middle ground i'm against is trying to hold together the status quo and waiting for things to get better

 

[rypper]

this isn't a middle ground. this is the approach the team should be taking in my opinion. concede you aren't going to the finals this year or next, move out players who have significantly more value today than they will in 3 years and try to stay flexible so you can make aggressive moves to get better when the opportunity presents itself

the middle ground i'm against is trying to hold together the status quo and waiting for things to get better

I consider it to be the middle ground between a full scale teardown rebuild and a pedal to the floor, trade anything that isn't helping us this year, go for it.

I get the feeling the team is leaning more towards the latter then what I suggested.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Agreed 100%.

People are stuck in this binary black/white mindset where if you're not TB or Colorado then it's just like Benning trying to finish 16th and if that's the case we should be rebuilding.

And ... no. There are a lot of spaces in between 2nd and 16th.

Not all windows are the same. Not everyone gets to have a Pittsburgh or TB window. It doesn't mean you don't try to compete and clear a 4-5 year window as a top 5-8 team in the NHL.

This team right now is better than some people are giving it credit for. We have top-5 3-line scoring depth in the NHL - our 3rd line on the opening day of camp is Podkolzin-Horvat-Garland, which is an above-average NHL 2nd line - and a top-5 goalie. We have one major issue at RD. If they can find a way to address the RD situation, there's no reason this team can't have the sort of window I'm referencing above.

I’m just not sure we can keep that forward depth AND improve the D. Horvat, Kuzmenko( if he is a hit), Podkolzin, and Pettersson are up for new contracts in the next 2 years. Yeah Myers’s contract expires, but he will have to be replaced. We need another top 4, preferably top pairing RHD on top of that. We don’t have anything in the pipeline. I think we will have to make some tough choices. Such as trading Horvat or Boeser, paying alot to unload Poolman and Dickinson, or trading Garland for a minimal return. Then paying the price for a D. Fixing the RHD situation will not be an easy one, especially considering what the market is for RHD right now in both FA and the trade market.

 

[Peter Griffin]

(LA makes that trade because they have an abundance of RHD in their system, and are looking for that push to the next level. Miller could have been the center to bridge between Kopitar retiring and their prospect group breaking out.)

For all we know the Kings and Canucks may have discussed a Miller trade. But LA decided to trade for 26 year old Kevin Fiala and extend him. I don’t think it’s a given that LA was interested in doing the same with Miller.

 

[LordBacon]

Its been a while mofos.
Cant wait till season starts.

 

[Hodgy]

We don't need to land a Makar or Toews, although that would be a bonus and make it a lot easier. The goal would have been to be in LA's position where you're a bubble team but you have a ton of assets to use to make moves.

We can all agree we're a bubble team this year right? We're not a bad team - the gigantic issue is that we have nothing left to use to make moves - capped out with no farm - and we have a big stack of fat UFA contracts on players whose age curve is not expected to go well so the clock is ticking.

Becoming a bubble team is the easiest thing in the world. A team with literally no GM - a literal potato as a GM - that drafts off of a public list and only re-signs their own players will eventually become a bubble team by pure entropy. It takes nothing to become a bubble team but it takes a generationally bad and stupid GM to finish a rebuild as a bubble team that's capped out with no farm and overcommitted to UFA's.

The trick is maneuvering from a bubble team to a contender. My goal is to watch this team win the stanley cup so I don't see the "losing two years of this teams prime" as being a loss if we aren't contenders for that time period anyways.


It's not that different than how Yzerman operated in Tampa Bay, except that he didn't have to overcorrect a previous moron GM's mistakes halfway through the build. And being willing to be patient and stockpile is pretty much his superpower as a GM, along with whatever he does to player development.

We don't know what the trade market was last year. Rutherford was rejecting calls on players well into 2022. There doesn't seem to have been a serious effort to make these trades or build a market. We only know the opening offer from one team at the deadline that we didn't negotiate on. By the time free agency hit it was much too late to do something like this

We aren’t the same as LA though because our core is a fair bit younger. The timing of their mini
rebuild add way more sense. In addition, they started their rebuild after making the playoffs 7 of 9 years, and even then it wasn’t even intentional at first. They just embraced how poor they were and did a quick “intentional” two year rebuild.

I get what you are saying, but in this market, we aren’t getting big returns for our players. Like, if we trade Horvat AND Miller, we would maybe return two lateish first rounders and two non elite prospects. We may get one pretty good Jared Mcann NHLer out of that return. But that player, or let’s say we get two pretty good players, so those players, probably won’t even be ready for top six duty in 2-3 years, leaving us gutted at centre.

I just don’t see where all these assets are coming from, and as I said before, I think you are going to have to get really lucky for this to work out.

For all we know the Kings and Canucks may have discussed a Miller trade. But LA decided to trade for 26 year old Kevin Fiala and extend him. I don’t think it’s a given that LA was interested in doing the same with Miller.

I think it’s very unlikely that LA was interested at all in Miller given his age. Frankly, I think anyone who has been paying attention has noticed that the market for players that are 29-30 and will need long term extensions has cratered.