Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching
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credulous
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- Nov 18, 2021
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at least paying assets to clear cap would represent a legitimate (tho misguided in my estimation) attempt to be competitive. what they are doing now shows zero ambition and zero creativity. it's an incrementalist approach to roster building that just can't work given the realities of the modern nhl. no competitor in the last decade (or more) has been built by making hockey trades and consistently winning trades to up the talent level of their roster. the only ways to add talent are 1: draft/develop it, 2: convert cap space to talent via free agent signings or opportunistic trades with cap strapped teams or 3: time shift talent either by trading future value (young players, picks) for present value (established players, cap space) or vice versa
this management team seems reluctant to perform any time shifting and they seem intent on using the cap space to keep the current group together modulo the additions of mikheyev and lazar. that says to me that they either have done a poor job of evaluating this roster or they aren't serious about competing and are just waiting for something to fall into their laps. i'm okay with a patient approach but you need to pair it with a willingness to move out declining value while you can. if you just wait and wait the most likely outcome is you end up with an old, expensive roster and you never hit the critical mass of assets you need to assemble a roster that can actually compete
Peter Griffin
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- Feb 13, 2003
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The reported asking price from Marek was a young roster player, top prospect and a 1st. Obviously the value of the roster player and prospect are up for interpretation.
A signed to under $5m first pair defensman at age 24 for 3 more seasons should be one of the most valued assets in the nhl.
The roster player and prospects would need to be premium assets and it’s likely more than one 1st rounder would still be required.
I’d give them 3 1sts if they would take a salary or two back, and id throw in Rathbone and Hoglander easily.
It’s the kind of move that would actually get me excited.
If the idea is to contend sooner than later it makes no sense to worry about the first rounders who folks continually say won’t help you for 3-5 years post-draft anyways.
I don't know why but I remember hearing it was higher. Like what you said but add a 1st.
Agreed 100%.
People are stuck in this binary black/white mindset where if you're not TB or Colorado then it's just like Benning trying to finish 16th and if that's the case we should be rebuilding.
And ... no. There are a lot of spaces in between 2nd and 16th.
Not all windows are the same. Not everyone gets to have a Pittsburgh or TB window. It doesn't mean you don't try to compete and clear a 4-5 year window as a top 5-8 team in the NHL.
This team right now is better than some people are giving it credit for. We have top-5 3-line scoring depth in the NHL - our 3rd line on the opening day of camp is Podkolzin-Horvat-Garland, which is an above-average NHL 2nd line - and a top-5 goalie. We have one major issue at RD. If they can find a way to address the RD situation, there's no reason this team can't have the sort of window I'm referencing above.
Peter Griffin
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Well depending on what level of roster player/prospect it could be viewed as the equivalent of say 4 later 1sts.
Well they haven’t been 16th yet so it feels like ranking them as a 5-8th team with top 5 forward depth feels a little but like Bruce there it is intoxication.
The team looks decent. But hopefully we can be forgiven for not trusting largely the same group that flopped hard x2 after their last little blip (the bubble).
If the idea is contention, I’d have preferred them to push harder.
Will Miller be a 90 point guy in 4 years? Unlikely. That’s why it should be go time if this is their approach.
The team looks decent. But hopefully we can be forgiven for not trusting largely the same group that flopped hard x2 after their last little blip (the bubble).
If the idea is contention, I’d have preferred them to push harder.
Will Miller be a 90 point guy in 4 years? Unlikely. That’s why it should be go time if this is their approach.
credulous
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i guess if you think this team is just a top 4 d and maybe some roster adjustments away from being a top 5-8 team it makes sense to be happy with management's approach. i find it hard to reconcile benning being a historically bad gm with this team being a top 5-8 team though. it's largely unchanged from the team he assembled
people love to cherry pick strength in one particular lineup spot to illustrate the canucks roster strength but if podkolzin, horvat and garland are your third line (and get ice time like third liners) then your top 4 wings are boeser, mikheyev, pearson and kuzmenko. looks terrible to me if you want to hold this team to the same standard as the contenders. it's like claiming the canucks are deep on d because oel is on the second pairing ignoring that luke schenn is on the top pairing
people love to cherry pick strength in one particular lineup spot to illustrate the canucks roster strength but if podkolzin, horvat and garland are your third line (and get ice time like third liners) then your top 4 wings are boeser, mikheyev, pearson and kuzmenko. looks terrible to me if you want to hold this team to the same standard as the contenders. it's like claiming the canucks are deep on d because oel is on the second pairing ignoring that luke schenn is on the top pairing
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
Wait...you just invalidated your points with those stats. 5 of those years are guys with 4th or better finishes, while the rest were the same teams, just with a lower point total.
We are talking about how teams are built and the point was always about tanking and building from 1st-3rd overall picks, which Chicago, LA, Pittsburgh and Tampa all have done.
Even Washington was built on the backs of tanking. Ovechkin, Backstrom.
Which leaves the Blues model that the Canucks are trying to emulate, which was a one in a billion chance of success. Riding an unbelievably hot goalie who now wouldn't even be a top 10 goalie in the league.
TruGr1t
Proper Villain
- Jun 26, 2003
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If they miss the playoffs this year, I don't want to hear any revisionist bullshit along the lines of "well, this year was never really about the playoffs." There also better be some accountability in terms of personnel movement.
I am someone who wanted a 2 year for lack of better word reset, though I think a better word would be adjustment/reallocation.
But I will say I think the people wanting to be more aggressive than we have been are assuming certain things.
Make no mistake I don't think we are a 5-8 team this year. I think last year we were a bubble team and this year we have improved and while being a bubble team are still better. Improvement has been made.
The problem with being more aggressive is losing out on assets we already don't have. Our prospect pool is empty we can't afford to trade picks to free up cap. Anyone saying we should have is making us a worse team probably now and in the future.
After that it really was such a weird off season and I don't see where we were getting anything people mention. Even Marino who I thought was 100% coming here, we didn't have a Ty Smith to trade.
I think we as fans can tend to be living in Fantasy hockey land too much and not the real world where certain deals just aren't there. This is why I am ok with being patient. We aren't a top 5-8 team this year, but that will take time.
But I will say I think the people wanting to be more aggressive than we have been are assuming certain things.
Make no mistake I don't think we are a 5-8 team this year. I think last year we were a bubble team and this year we have improved and while being a bubble team are still better. Improvement has been made.
The problem with being more aggressive is losing out on assets we already don't have. Our prospect pool is empty we can't afford to trade picks to free up cap. Anyone saying we should have is making us a worse team probably now and in the future.
After that it really was such a weird off season and I don't see where we were getting anything people mention. Even Marino who I thought was 100% coming here, we didn't have a Ty Smith to trade.
I think we as fans can tend to be living in Fantasy hockey land too much and not the real world where certain deals just aren't there. This is why I am ok with being patient. We aren't a top 5-8 team this year, but that will take time.
Bubbles
Die Hard for Bedard 2023
credulous
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i don't think you are wrong. many of the moves people wanted or are disappointed didn't happen may not have been possible in reality. maybe ron hextall is really bitter about allvin leaving and refuses to take his calls. i'm not upset they didn't get bjorkstrand or marino specifically. i'm upset they don't seem to really have a plan other than maintain the status quo and hope kuzmenko is the next ovechkin or rathbone is scott niedermayer v2
But I don't think that is their plan either.
I think they see Kuz as great depth and a free asset. He hopefully makes someone else expendable but that will depend on the trade market.
There is a large inbetween, and I think people are too focused on being on one side of it.
sting101
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Our top PP group and Demko are top5 and contender worthy as long as Boeser and Pettersson have put the last couple seasons in the rear view mirror. I strongly suspect they have.
5v5 Our forward depth has been a big issue for 2 seasons. While it has improved some question marks on Podkolzin Hoglander Kuzmenko and whether Boeser can bounce back remain. For my money it's necessary to add Pettersson and Horvats poor production and Travis Green and some serious disconnect/dicontent and general lack of foot soldiers that required Chiasson to be playing in the top 3 lines. All names already been mentioned with Michayev and Lazar considered i see a big uptick in 5v5 within the forwards
PK was a huge issue that will not be in the same realm of disaster. There is not a single theory or statistical analysis that supports it being as bad. It was an anomaly and we've added some better players to the mix. Even if its below average which it very well could be it wont be a death nail as it was last year for a few months.
Defense as we all know is where it gets sketchy. It would be negligent to count on Myers OEL Schenn and Hughes collectively playing all as good or better than last year. My theory is OEL will add more, Hughes will be a bit more assertive but roughly the same as it may create some breakdowns and Myers and Schenn will both be problematic. I'm not sold on Dermott as anything beyond 3rd pair depth and Poolman and Rathbone are huge question marks that cannot be counted on. Were bottom 10 on D realistically without a trade or a lot going right.
I wonder if Joel Edmundson in MTL could be had for a good price if Hughes playing RD is a real thing 2yrs at 3.5 might be something we could live with until him and Myers are both free agents and then we can get a big fish with the 9.5 in cap space and just live with the fact we either need a diamond from the draft or to allocate assets to get it done that dont involve massive UFA contracts to Klingberg/Weegar/Dumba/Severson in the interim
With good management this team can be a contender.
5v5 Our forward depth has been a big issue for 2 seasons. While it has improved some question marks on Podkolzin Hoglander Kuzmenko and whether Boeser can bounce back remain. For my money it's necessary to add Pettersson and Horvats poor production and Travis Green and some serious disconnect/dicontent and general lack of foot soldiers that required Chiasson to be playing in the top 3 lines. All names already been mentioned with Michayev and Lazar considered i see a big uptick in 5v5 within the forwards
PK was a huge issue that will not be in the same realm of disaster. There is not a single theory or statistical analysis that supports it being as bad. It was an anomaly and we've added some better players to the mix. Even if its below average which it very well could be it wont be a death nail as it was last year for a few months.
Defense as we all know is where it gets sketchy. It would be negligent to count on Myers OEL Schenn and Hughes collectively playing all as good or better than last year. My theory is OEL will add more, Hughes will be a bit more assertive but roughly the same as it may create some breakdowns and Myers and Schenn will both be problematic. I'm not sold on Dermott as anything beyond 3rd pair depth and Poolman and Rathbone are huge question marks that cannot be counted on. Were bottom 10 on D realistically without a trade or a lot going right.
I wonder if Joel Edmundson in MTL could be had for a good price if Hughes playing RD is a real thing 2yrs at 3.5 might be something we could live with until him and Myers are both free agents and then we can get a big fish with the 9.5 in cap space and just live with the fact we either need a diamond from the draft or to allocate assets to get it done that dont involve massive UFA contracts to Klingberg/Weegar/Dumba/Severson in the interim
With good management this team can be a contender.
Worrying about the prospect pool to me is asinine at this point. Are you trying to contend or build a prospect pool?
They’re clearly trying to open a window while they’ve got Miller near his peak and Demko signed ie 4 years.
Like you folks keep saying a rebuild doesn’t work because the picks aren’t making the team for 3-5 years, well wtf are they doing hoarding them?
If you believe they can Gillis this group, why make the same mistakes? Why not strike while you think you’ve got a top 5 forward group and goalie?
It’s the Hodgson/Schneider for Jeff Carter all over again.
Pull on your big boy pants and give this core something that changes the projection and sorry a guy who had 15 goals and 25 assists in 90+ games before the outlier doubling of shooting percentage last season ain’t it. Even if I like the guy and think he improved the group.
And if this team is Bruce there it is good the picks are late anyways.
I think @credulous is making excellent points Here.
Edit* if there’s only 4 teams with better forward groups who are they?
I disagree with the continually repeated notion. It’s quality and has depth but the high end isn’t that high and their reps are built on doing it on a team that was out of it on November.
Curtis Lazar is a 15 point/season 4th liner. I love that he’s a Canucks fan but is he better than Motte? More productive? No.
They’re clearly trying to open a window while they’ve got Miller near his peak and Demko signed ie 4 years.
Like you folks keep saying a rebuild doesn’t work because the picks aren’t making the team for 3-5 years, well wtf are they doing hoarding them?
If you believe they can Gillis this group, why make the same mistakes? Why not strike while you think you’ve got a top 5 forward group and goalie?
It’s the Hodgson/Schneider for Jeff Carter all over again.
Pull on your big boy pants and give this core something that changes the projection and sorry a guy who had 15 goals and 25 assists in 90+ games before the outlier doubling of shooting percentage last season ain’t it. Even if I like the guy and think he improved the group.
And if this team is Bruce there it is good the picks are late anyways.
I think @credulous is making excellent points Here.
Edit* if there’s only 4 teams with better forward groups who are they?
I disagree with the continually repeated notion. It’s quality and has depth but the high end isn’t that high and their reps are built on doing it on a team that was out of it on November.
Curtis Lazar is a 15 point/season 4th liner. I love that he’s a Canucks fan but is he better than Motte? More productive? No.
credulous
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waiting for a 'hockey trade' where someone gives us a good young defenseman for a surplus winger is fantasy thinking in my opinion. the last hockey trade i remember was kadri for barrie three years ago. i guess maybe voracek for atkinson but that was a cap deal more than a hockey trade imo
Seems like most people content with a 4-5 year go for it window, are fine with trading 1sts and Lmakki.
Building the prospect pool isn't so much to have young players coming up (bonus for us) but actually having assets to trade. Like there is a reason we couldn't get Marino, or any number of guys. We just flat out don't have assets. So you build the prospect pull so you can make these trades.
I think a winger and a pick is fine place to start depending on the target.
I think there are under valued dmen we can target like the ones people have mentioned of Bear and Durzi, or even though I don't think we had the assets I would include Marino... that was still a hockey trade even though there was some Cap allocation with that trade.
credulous
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absolutely not. pittsburgh made that trade to bring in petry and needed to move out marino's money. that trade didn't happen because pittsburgh wanted ty smith
Canucks might be the biggest 'mystery team' in the NHL this season. Are they closer to the team that crapped the bed under Green and crashed to an 8-15 start that basically doomed them?
Or are they the team that went 32-15 under Boudreau--easily a playoff pace in the West? The top NHL oddsmakers are still unconvinced, picking the Canucks to miss the post-season once again.
But sometimes it's better for a team to 'fly below the radar screen', and catch a few teams napping at the start of the season.
Or are they the team that went 32-15 under Boudreau--easily a playoff pace in the West? The top NHL oddsmakers are still unconvinced, picking the Canucks to miss the post-season once again.
But sometimes it's better for a team to 'fly below the radar screen', and catch a few teams napping at the start of the season.
sting101
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- Feb 8, 2012
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I'm ok with dealing picks and Lekk but it has to be with consideration to cost controlled players potentially being taken away from the roster.
TB made it work incredibly well because not only did they find someone dumb enough to trade Drouin for Sergachev and Bishop for Cernak they hit home runs with Cirelli Point and Gourde
My main concern with the forwards is that we may still be an awful defensive group when measured to contending teams. That for me is BB's biggest challenge if he wants to roll 3 lines. Not saying he wont be able to find a balance that works but still nothing to hang a hat on when it comes to being hard on pucks and being able to transition at the blue lines effectively.
The D is more of a lack of horses issue than positional play and decision making
TB made it work incredibly well because not only did they find someone dumb enough to trade Drouin for Sergachev and Bishop for Cernak they hit home runs with Cirelli Point and Gourde
My main concern with the forwards is that we may still be an awful defensive group when measured to contending teams. That for me is BB's biggest challenge if he wants to roll 3 lines. Not saying he wont be able to find a balance that works but still nothing to hang a hat on when it comes to being hard on pucks and being able to transition at the blue lines effectively.
The D is more of a lack of horses issue than positional play and decision making
Building up the assets?
Aren’t the picks already assets?
Just hoping for Hoglanders and Rathbone’s to become expendable feels like failing to see the forest through the trees.
I absolutely hate your plan of building up prospect pool, patiently waiting for contracts to expire all in the name of cracking open a 5 year window, that likely wastes the first two years doing those first two things.
Pastor Of Muppetz
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Where were Calgary Flames ranked before last season..?...bubble team who were more likely to miss, along with their dinosaur coach..They were the butt of a lot of jokes.
....and quietly beat most of the eastern teams in Oct 2021.
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