Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[rypper]

has anyone mentioned the coachig staff. Jason King is pretty much self explanatory, i still dont understand how he was able to keep his job. Mike Yeo, i was always wary about that hire. Trent Cull? i was extremely surprised he was hired to the big club, his coaching records for our AHL team was not good so i was perplexed about that.

It all falls back to ownership.

King sticks around and Cull is promoted because it's cheaper then replacing them. Yeo is brought in because a head coach should get to have some say in his staff, that's a compromise.

 

[Melvin]

While the first 6 games have been a disaster, I still think this team is probably like 10-10-2 by the end of November and I kinda wonder what the tone will be like once the team is mediocre instead of winless.

 

[theguardianII]

I’m emotionally disengaged from the Canucks but I find this fascinating. So much blame to go around:

-ownership for letting it get to this point by supporting years of mismanagement
-Benning and Weisbrod for slowly destroying the structure of the organization apart to strike their overinflated egos and make the worse decisions time and time again
-new management for doubling down on a team that has proved to be emotionally fragile and choosing but not executing on a middle path
-coaching going with suboptimal lineups and reverting to the least creative and effective options at a moment’s notice
-the entitled players that have accomplished nothing; given big contracts but show up for training camp unprepared and look completely lost to start the season

Now management is in such a hole there’s nothing they can do; nearly every player is valueless. Players that actually have shown up will be lost. Even if they turn it around and go on a good run the best case scenario is identical to last season. Just not good enough to ever compete for anything significant. Only hope for legitimate contention is on unrealistic circumstances going the Canucks way again and again (draft lottery win, Miller traded to a dumb team for a haul, Horvat takes a discount, traded players net unlikely returns that contribute quickly).

They can’t go forward with this group but because they chose to try and succeed with them, nothing can be done.

It’s f*cking purgatory.

There is still a way out, RETENTION.

How many teams would turn down Horvat at 2.75 mil, Garland at 2.5, even Boeser at 3.2 while he still has rep or Miller at 4 or 5 mil?

Same with OEL at 4 mil.


All teams are hit with cap issues but a rebuilding team can take on these expenses especially if the owner is willing to spend like Aquilini has for the last 8 years with the same results in the standings.

Using retention this group would have to make a decision to rebuild, to blow it up and stick to it, a 3/4 year plan. The fans here are not much different than in TO if anything more patient. A rebuild here with a plan would be embraced by most of the market, media and sports shows just as they have been tolerant for most of the last 8 years of stagnation.

Retention is the way out, but there would be pain from fan favs leaving too. Can't make an omelet with cracking some eggs

RETETNION

 

[m9]

There is still a way out, RETENTION.

How many teams would turn down Horvat at 2.75 mil, Garland at 2.5, even Boeser at 3.2 while he still has rep or Miller at 4 or 5 mil?

Same with OEL at 4 mil.


All teams are hit with cap issues but a rebuilding team can take on these expenses especially if the owner is willing to spend like Aquilini has for the last 8 years with the same results in the standings.

Using retention this group would have to make a decision to rebuild, to blow it up and stick to it, a 3/4 year plan. The fans here are not much different than in TO if anything more patient. A rebuild here with a plan would be embraced by most of the market, media and sports shows just as they have been tolerant for most of the last 8 years of stagnation.

Retention is the way out, but there would be pain from fan favs leaving too. Can't make an omelet with cracking some eggs

RETETNION

Retaining for multiple years really hurts trade flexibility. Retaining when a guy has a year or two left should obviously be part of the plan and if they move Horvat you would hope that's part of it to increase the return. Same with Myers.

 

[theguardianII]

Retaining for multiple years really hurts trade flexibility. Retaining when a guy has a year or two left should obviously be part of the plan and if they move Horvat you would hope that's part of it to increase the return. Same with Myers.

As I pointed out the team carried Luo's 3 mil in a flat cap time and with the cap going up maybe 4 mil and rebuilding with CBA controlled RFA contracts, 3 or four years is not an issue.

If Miller or OEL retention does not have to be 50%, and I think retention can be for a portion of the contract, if not the cap will start rising yearly after this and it would be 3 more years before the added would be needed.

In the meantime trading space for picks/prospects for a couple of years then hitting the FA pools and hockey trades in earnest.

 

[rypper]

They're not retaining on Miller for the next 7 years lol. Hey Francesco let's pay 20+ million for a guy to not play for us.

As I pointed out the team carried Luo's 3 mil in a flat cap time and with the cap going up maybe 4 mil and rebuilding with CBA controlled RFA contracts, 3 or four years is not an issue.

If Miller or OEL retention does not have to be 50%, and I think retention can be for a portion of the contract, if not the cap will start rising yearly after this and it would be 3 more years before the added would be needed.

In the meantime trading space for picks/prospects for a couple of years then hitting the FA pools and hockey trades in earnest.

That was a penalty not a choice to carry Luongo's cap recapture.

 

[m9]

As I pointed out the team carried Luo's 3 mil in a flat cap time and with the cap going up maybe 4 mil and rebuilding with CBA controlled RFA contracts, 3 or four years is not an issue.

If Miller or OEL retention does not have to be 50%, and I think retention can be for a portion of the contract, if not the cap will start rising yearly after this and it would be 3 more years before the added would be needed.

In the meantime trading space for picks/prospects for a couple of years then hitting the FA pools and hockey trades in earnest.

No thanks. If the plan is to not be competitive for a few years, I need 2-3 retention slots available every year to provide trade flexibility. Using a bunch all at once is short-term thinking.

 

[Nucker101]

Still can't believe Rutherford made the "I thought Bruce only had a 1 one year deal" comment last night.

While the first 6 games have been a disaster, I still think this team is probably like 10-10-2 by the end of November and I kinda wonder what the tone will be like once the team is mediocre instead of winless.

Back to praying that we can squeak into the last wildcard spot and avoid getting swept in round 1

 

[krutovsdonut]

digesting that interview last night, i think rutherford is an impressive character. under the smiley exterior he is a serious thoughtful hockey guy who pulled no punches in about the toughest interview situation you can imagine by quietly speaking his mind if you listened carefully. he politely bantered over all the old school stuff but he was humouring garrett all the way.

i imagine his relationship with boudreau is not far off his relationship with garrett in the interview.

i think rutherford told us where he thinks they are at. management like the offence and hate the defence and coaching which, to some extent, overlaps.

they want a more dedicated systems coach in place to establish a strong system and team identity that replacement players can play when injuries arise, and who will not tolerate any bad habits.

boudreau is a player's coach who relies on the leaders in the room to work with him to pull it together into a loose system that compliments the skills of those players. if they can do it, it is fantastic for the players who get to play hockey the way they love it with lots of rope, but if it does not work things fall apart very badly as they are now.

if boudreau can turn this around, then i expect management to wait and make their bigger moves later in the season. maybe continue to chase guys like dermott.

buit if boudreau is a lame duck or gone, i expect them to make two moves as soon as they can. one a salary dump where we get a low return or pay to move a good player and one the movement of draft picks/ valued young asset(s), all to steady the defence. it is possible they do both all at once by moving horvat. that depends on room stuff it is impossible for me to gauge, but i think it is more likely two moves and we will give up assets like hoglander, rathbone and garland for a pretty underwhelming return.

my guess is our target will be a currently well paid but steady and disciplined mid-4 defenceman with grit. i'd look for them to seek out a guy in the mold of dumoulin or cole.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

There is still a way out, RETENTION.

How many teams would turn down Horvat at 2.75 mil, Garland at 2.5, even Boeser at 3.2 while he still has rep or Miller at 4 or 5 mil?

Same with OEL at 4 mil.


All teams are hit with cap issues but a rebuilding team can take on these expenses especially if the owner is willing to spend like Aquilini has for the last 8 years with the same results in the standings.

Using retention this group would have to make a decision to rebuild, to blow it up and stick to it, a 3/4 year plan. The fans here are not much different than in TO if anything more patient. A rebuild here with a plan would be embraced by most of the market, media and sports shows just as they have been tolerant for most of the last 8 years of stagnation.

Retention is the way out, but there would be pain from fan favs leaving too. Can't make an omelet with cracking some eggs

RETETNION

You know there is a limit of three players you can retain cap hit on, right?

So it will only get you half way out of the problem, then your plan has a whole bunch of waiting anyways.

Might as well just have patience and go into a rebuild more skill fully… trading at the deadline, using buy outs and taking on a couple bad contracts.

You can’t unpatiently rebuild…

 

[theguardianII]

They're not retaining on Miller for the next 7 years lol. Hey Francesco let's pay 20+ million for a guy to not play for us.


That was a penalty not a choice to carry Luongo's cap recapture.

Who said 20 mil? And he has spent that much or more on Eriksson and failed Benning ideas. The bubble team was 12 mil OVER the cap for one year.

Penalty or not it is nothing different that if that player stayed if anything it was less but the point was it was workable when there were no big increases of the cap.

Hey Islanders, here is Miller for this year and the next 4 years with 3 million retained each year for 3 years.

If the Aquilini's were only worried about the money spent do you really think they would have let Benning spend a billion dollars for those results? That is what he spent so 20 mil is a spit in the bucket.

The savings on a Miller deal with cap increases would something like depending upon the return, if just picks;

2.5 this year and 15 mil over the next 3 years, if cap goes up 4 mil per year that is a plus of 24 mil in total and an additional 15 mil in year 3. Plus the picks or prospects not yet in the league.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

digesting that interview last night, i think rutherford is an impressive character. under the smiley exterior he is a serious thoughtful hockey guy who pulled no punches in about the toughest interview situation you can imagine by quietly speaking his mind if you listened carefully. he politely bantered over all the old school stuff but he was humouring garrett all the way.

i imagine his relationship with boudreau is not far off his relationship with garrett in the interview.

i think rutherford told us where he thinks they are at. management like the offence and hate the defence and coaching which, to some extent, overlaps.

they want a more dedicated systems coach in place to establish a strong system and team identity that replacement players can play when injuries arise, and who will not tolerate any bad habits.

boudreau is a player's coach who relies on the leaders in the room to work with him to pull it together into a loose system that compliments the skills of those players. if they can do it, it is fantastic for the players who get to play hockey the way they love it with lots of rope, but if it does not work things fall apart very badly as they are now.

if boudreau can turn this around, then i expect management to wait and make their bigger moves later in the season. maybe continue to chase guys like dermott.

buit if boudreau is a lame duck or gone, i expect them to make two moves as soon as they can. one a salary dump where we get a low return or pay to move a good player and one the movement of draft picks/ valued young asset(s), all to steady the defence. it is possible they do both all at once by moving horvat. that depends on room stuff it is impossible for me to gauge, but i think it is more likely two moves and we will give up assets like hoglander, rathbone and garland for a pretty underwhelming return.

my guess is our target will be a currently well paid but steady and disciplined mid-4 defenceman with grit. i'd look for them to seek out a guy in the mold of dumoulin or cole.

The pay to move a player can’t happen imo… we just can’t afford to suck and loose picks. If we could package a bad contract and a prospect maybe.

I think both Moller and Horvat need to go. And we need to target a defensive third line C and and the D you are talking about.

Edit: I liked your JR comments

 

[Kryten]

Who said 20 mil? And he has spent that much or more on Eriksson and failed Benning ideas. The bubble team was 12 mil OVER the cap for one year.

Penalty or not it is nothing different that if that player stayed if anything it was less but the point was it was workable when there were no big increases of the cap.

Hey Islanders, here is Miller for this year and the next 4 years with 3 million retained each year for 3 years.

If the Aquilini's were only worried about the money spent do you really think they would have let Benning spend a billion dollars for those results? That is what he spent so 20 mil is a spit in the bucket.

The savings on a Miller deal with cap increases would something like depending upon the return, if just picks;

2.5 this year and 15 mil over the next 3 years, if cap goes up 4 mil per year that is a plus of 24 mil in total and an additional 15 mil in year 3. Plus the picks or prospects not yet in the league.

No idea what youre trying to say here mate

 

[krutovsdonut]

Still can't believe Rutherford made the "I thought Bruce only had a 1 one year deal" comment last night.

i have been thinking about that. it was reported that the team had an option to renew and boudreau had an option to walk. which really makes no sense. they didn't need a contract term to be able to make him an offer he was free to reject.

perhaps the devil is in the details or verbal promises were made to bruce that if he blew the doors off they would offer.

Canucks not ready to give Boudreau contract extension despite turnaround | NHL.com

President prefers full season to evaluate; went 32-15-10 after replacing Green as coach Dec. 5

www.nhl.com

what i assumed happened last summer is boudreau tried to improve the money and the team stood firm so in the end he took the offer.

whatever prompted the comment by rutherford, he obviously thinks coaching is a big problem and he was basically choking on the fact they renewed boudreau to the point he put it out there that he had no choice which, if true, is clearly something they were not saying publicly before.

The pay to move a player can’t happen imo… we just can’t afford to suck and loose picks. If we could package a bad contract and a prospect maybe.

I think both Moller and Horvat need to go. And we need to target a defensive third line C and and the D you are talking about.

horvat maybe. i feel he is a solid player put in the impossible position of being captain on a team with three guys who are better than him and have captain-like characteristics, but i also think he has disappointed as a captain and i have always thought he did not have the team under control.

miller is going nowhere right now. his market value is impacted by his bozo like tendencies and there is no way anyone is going to take him in peak bozo mode.

 

[theguardianII]

No thanks. If the plan is to not be competitive for a few years, I need 2-3 retention slots available every year to provide trade flexibility. Using a bunch all at once is short-term thinking.

Some would expire in a year or two.
This year would just be moving contracts in preparation for the next moves and there would they money saved not paying the full contracts.

If Miller, Horvat, Boeser and Garland all retained at 50%, which is not to say it would be that much

The team would have over 15 mil more to play with next year even with 50% retention. The cap hit would be 15 mil less in a rebuild.

That would not count expiring contracts of Myers or Pearson in year two, an additional 10 mil.

****edit**** looked it up in the CBA, can only retain 3 contracts per year and retention can only be 15% of the cap maximum.

So Horvat would be for this year, Boeser for 2 years, Garland for 3 years and Miller the term of his new deal I think, as his new deal isn't in effect until July 1, could be just this year's contract unless negotiated in the trade maybe, not sure.

 

[Aphid Attraction]

Some would expire in a year or two.
This year would just be moving contracts in preparation for the next moves and there would they money saved not paying the full contracts.

If Miller, Horvat, Boeser and Garland all retained at 50%, which is not to say it would be that much

The team would have over 15 mil more to play with next year even with 50% retention. The cap hit would be 15 mil less in a rebuild.

That would not count expiring contracts of Myers or Pearson in year two, an additional 10 mil.

Like I said. That is impossible.

 

[m9]

Some would expire in a year or two.
This year would just be moving contracts in preparation for the next moves and there would they money saved not paying the full contracts.

If Miller, Horvat, Boeser and Garland all retained at 50%, which is not to say it would be that much

The team would have over 15 mil more to play with next year even with 50% retention. The cap hit would be 15 mil less in a rebuild.

That would not count expiring contracts of Myers or Pearson in year two, an additional 10 mil.

You only get 3 retention slots.

 

[gringo]

has anyone mentioned the coachig staff. Jason King is pretty much self explanatory, i still dont understand how he was able to keep his job. Mike Yeo, i was always wary about that hire. Trent Cull? i was extremely surprised he was hired to the big club, his coaching records for our AHL team was not good so i was perplexed about that.

I asked this earlier but can’t find the numbers but how many associate or head coaches have been fired in the last 5-6 years? Is it really the coaches all the time?

 

[CherryToke]

No Boeser at practice? Benching his useless ass hopefully

 

[canuckking1]

We can't even blow it up as we have 8M dollar Miller for the next 7 years.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I asked this earlier but can’t find the numbers but how many associate or head coaches have been fired in the last 5-6 years? Is it really the coaches all the time?

it is the mix. the team has been less than the sum of its parts forever.

sometimes a coach can knit that together but in this case pretty obviously the team does not physically match up well in the league. our dmen can be forechecked. our forwards put undue reliance on finesse and wits. imo it is close though. fixing one or the other could be a matter of one player, and fixing just one of them could put the other into balance.

 

[theguardianII]

Yes you are right only 3 spots

A Horvat retention would expire July 1
Others made would have to part of a PLAN to rebuild so in 3 or 4 more seasons most of the retention is gone.
But if a rebuild is done and successful the team would have many players on entry or second contracts, sort of like Buffalo, a team with 15 mil in space.

The idea is trying to move and change the team without giving away more of the future. Retention might cost in some areas but the team is capped out now and losing while being constrained to money in money out deals.

Even if only Horvat is retained that gives the team over 3 mil in wiggle room, if Boeser and Horvat then over 5 million. That is lot around the TDL.

IMO a team in rebuild is not so worried about wins and losses as it about getting younger, the right mix of players and having the ability in a cap world to be flexible.

I am not sure how posters still think this is a playoff team or should continue down this road to trying to fix it with a player here or a player there with half the teams tools unavailable.

I would hope many are trying to think HOW to do a rebuild rather than just saying it can't be done or any idea can't work. Pretty sure there was a consensus on getting cap control

 

[EpochLink]

Aquaman and his child abusing brain is full of shit. Who’s the worst slumlords in Vancouver? The Aquilini’s or the Sahota’s?

 

[Aphid Attraction]

We can't even blow it up as we have 8M dollar Miller for the next 7 years.

I don’t think his contract is that bad, if he was ufa this summer he would get more then that.

We can’t blow it up and rebuild fast, bug rebuilds are not fast.

 

[canucksfan]

While the first 6 games have been a disaster, I still think this team is probably like 10-10-2 by the end of November and I kinda wonder what the tone will be like once the team is mediocre instead of winless.

I don't think the team turns it around quickly. Hughes seems to be injured and they need a healthy Hughes. Demko is struggling and the forward group seems unengaged outside of a few players.