Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[I Hart Conor Garland]

But but but they're just unlucky!

And feelings!

And we don't care about reality!

And...and other excuses!!!

Can you imagine how happy we would all be had we never even known the cursed name Mike Gillis?

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Still can't believe Rutherford made the "I thought Bruce only had a 1 one year deal" comment last night.

Back to praying that we can squeak into the last wildcard spot and avoid getting swept in round 1

That’s the cherry on top. Nothing is more important than roughly April 21-23ish(this year’s calendar). If they can extend the series to six games that’s 50% bigger of a smile on our piece of shit child abuser’s fat face.

 

[VanJack]

Watching that game last night, you can see that after a tortuous decade of failures and calamity, the Sabres are on their way. With Power and Dahlin, they're set on the blueline for the next decade. I could easily see those guys morphing into the likes of Victor Hedman and Shea Weber in their prime.

And up front they've got some great young forwards with a lot of size and grit. The only question mark is in goal with a 40-year old Craig Anderson and Erik Comrie are stop-gaps. But they'll eventually fix that, because according to Cap Friendly, they almost $20m in cap space.

It just goes to show.....that when you keep all your draft picks and endure the torture of being an NHL bottom-feeder year after year, the world will turn. It's guaranteed in the NHL.

Contrast that to the Canucks, who were never willing to bottom out, even when they actually did. They squandered draft picks, including first rounders and second rounders in two of the last three year. And basically they're nowhere.

There are no shortcuts in the NHL.....just bad owners who have this mistaken belief that there actually is.

 

[Sedinery]

Apparently some Cull supporters compare him to Cooper

Interesting

 

[MikeK]

No doubt. The Sabers have endured a lot the past decade but have come through with 2 Dmen who'll likely anchor down their blueline for the next 10 years and a forward group who are a few additions away from bringing it all together. The Canucks in comparison look like a clown organization run buy bozo himself. These two expansion twins couldn't look more different.

 

[rypper]

Who said 20 mil? And he has spent that much or more on Eriksson and failed Benning ideas. The bubble team was 12 mil OVER the cap for one year.

Penalty or not it is nothing different that if that player stayed if anything it was less but the point was it was workable when there were no big increases of the cap.

Hey Islanders, here is Miller for this year and the next 4 years with 3 million retained each year for 3 years.

If the Aquilini's were only worried about the money spent do you really think they would have let Benning spend a billion dollars for those results? That is what he spent so 20 mil is a spit in the bucket.

The savings on a Miller deal with cap increases would something like depending upon the return, if just picks;

2.5 this year and 15 mil over the next 3 years, if cap goes up 4 mil per year that is a plus of 24 mil in total and an additional 15 mil in year 3. Plus the picks or prospects not yet in the league.

Maybe I'm unaware of the retention rules but I don't think you can retain different amounts over the course of the deal or retain some years and not others.

3 million retained per over the next 7 years is 21 million, hence the 20+.

 

[RandV]

Disagree with this interpretation/narrative!!

Colorado didn’t double down on their duchene either.

They moved forward depth to the defence (Girard).

Besides this group is probably closer to the Avs that dealt ROR than the one that moved Duchene.


Also I think the comparison is shitty anyways and feel like it’s only being made as some sort of attempted dunk on folks who wouldn’t have doubled down on this shit. It’s the lazy “fans can’t handle a rebuild” shtick when they’re not rebuilding just basically the same group who was out of the running by November last season.

Well of course as no two teams are going to have the same situation. You can draw what comparisons do exist but there will always be things that don't line up. From my perspective I'm just a believer in that the primary factor in any rebuild is a teams own top 1st round picks.

But again asking the same question, who here exactly is saying "fans can't handle a rebuild"? That seems like an old artifact from the Benning regime, used merely as an excuse by management. I can't recall new management picking up on the idea, or any Canuck fans here repeating it.

Seemed to me like the main point of contention on the board was if it was viable to do either a full tear down to a 2-year retool, and if that was something any actual NHL gm would do from the Canucks position.

 

[me2]

While the first 6 games have been a disaster, I still think this team is probably like 10-10-2 by the end of November and I kinda wonder what the tone will be like once the team is mediocre instead of winless.

They have been unlucky so far but 10-10-2 is about what this team is. A bubble team with inflated aspirations and no means of getting better.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

While the first 6 games have been a disaster, I still think this team is probably like 10-10-2 by the end of November and I kinda wonder what the tone will be like once the team is mediocre instead of winless.

The team will be serenaded by the Bruce there it is crap well before even getting to .500. Once they’ve reached? The building will be absolutely electric. For .500. Man, Aquilini has it good here.

 

[valkynax]

Title needs a change:

Management Discussion | We'll win sooner or later

 

[Ita]

The 2nd traded to give away for Dickinson can very well end up being very close to a late 1st. Another fail of this administration.

 

[andora]

digesting that interview last night, i think rutherford is an impressive character. under the smiley exterior he is a serious thoughtful hockey guy who pulled no punches in about the toughest interview situation you can imagine by quietly speaking his mind if you listened carefully. he politely bantered over all the old school stuff but he was humouring garrett all the way.

i imagine his relationship with boudreau is not far off his relationship with garrett in the interview.

i think rutherford told us where he thinks they are at. management like the offence and hate the defence and coaching which, to some extent, overlaps.

they want a more dedicated systems coach in place to establish a strong system and team identity that replacement players can play when injuries arise, and who will not tolerate any bad habits.

boudreau is a player's coach who relies on the leaders in the room to work with him to pull it together into a loose system that compliments the skills of those players. if they can do it, it is fantastic for the players who get to play hockey the way they love it with lots of rope, but if it does not work things fall apart very badly as they are now.

if boudreau can turn this around, then i expect management to wait and make their bigger moves later in the season. maybe continue to chase guys like dermott.

buit if boudreau is a lame duck or gone, i expect them to make two moves as soon as they can. one a salary dump where we get a low return or pay to move a good player and one the movement of draft picks/ valued young asset(s), all to steady the defence. it is possible they do both all at once by moving horvat. that depends on room stuff it is impossible for me to gauge, but i think it is more likely two moves and we will give up assets like hoglander, rathbone and garland for a pretty underwhelming return.

my guess is our target will be a currently well paid but steady and disciplined mid-4 defenceman with grit. i'd look for them to seek out a guy in the mold of dumoulin or cole.

Very very well said

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

is something wrong

 

[Orr4Norris]

Still can't believe Rutherford made the "I thought Bruce only had a 1 one year deal" comment last night.

Back to praying that we can squeak into the last wildcard spot and avoid getting swept in round 1

I read it as a direct shot at ownership more so than Bruce. He’s basically saying he thought he’d get to choose his coach this summer.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

No doubt. The Sabers have endured a lot the past decade but have come through with 2 Dmen who'll likely anchor down their blueline for the next 10 years and a forward group who are a few additions away from bringing it all together. The Canucks in comparison look like a clown organization run buy bozo himself. These two expansion twins couldn't look more different.

It took them 11 years of no post season to acquire 2 young elite D men (and additions)..Yikes.

The Sabres would be going to year 12 of no post season this season, but I think they'll make it,

Colorado and Edmonton both spent close to a decade being terrible, and getting multiple opportunities tp pick in the top 3.

Maybe thats what you have to do in the modern NHL to get your franchise players...?

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

It took them 11 years of no post season to acquire 2 young elite D men (and additions)..Yikes.

The Sabres would be going to year 12 of no post season this season, but I think they'll make it,

Colorado and Edmonton both spent close to a decade being terrible, and getting multiple opportunities tp pick in the top 3.

Maybe thats what you have to do in the modern NHL to get your franchise players...?

i say stay the course cause next year is looking to be the one

 

[MarkMM]

The 2nd traded to give away for Dickinson can very well end up being very close to a late 1st. Another fail of this administration.

Ouch you hurt me. Didn't think anyone could make this all worse but congrats, lol.

 

[MikeK]

It took them 11 years of no post season to acquire 2 young elite D men (and additions)..Yikes.

The Sabres would be going to year 12 of no post season this season, but I think they'll make it,

Colorado and Edmonton both spent close to a decade being terrible, and getting multiple opportunities tp pick in the top 3.

Maybe thats what you have to do in the modern NHL.

I definitely think there are other paths that can be successful such as re-tooling on the fly. The problem with that path though is that you need more hits than misses. The Canucks this past decade have had far too many misses and have completely botched just about every opportunity they had to re-tool and reboot the team. It didn't help that they employed a guy who had absolutely no business being a General Manager and they did so for almost a decade. Benning had some hits, but he had far more misses that set this Franchise back too far.

At this stage I really don't know what to think. The Miller extension made no sense to me, and it will cripple this team for years. That is just way too much cap tied up for an almost 30-year-old player who was never an elite level player and whose best days are fast becoming a rear-view mirror image.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

reports of the sky falling have been greatly exaggerated

 

[TruGr1t]

I definitely think there are other paths that can be successful such as re-tooling on the fly. The problem with that path though is that you need more hits than misses. The Canucks this past decade have had far too many misses and have completely botched just about every opportunity they had to re-tool and reboot the team. It didn't help that they employed a guy who had absolutely no business being a General Manager and they did so for almost a decade. Benning had some hits, but he had far more misses that set this Franchise back too far.

At this stage I really don't know what to think. The Miller extension made no sense to me, and it will cripple this team for years. That is just way too much cap tied up for an almost 30-year-old player who was never an elite level player and whose best days are fast becoming a rear-view mirror image.

They actually got somewhat close with the group when they had Toffoli, Tanev, Edler and Markstrom. That veteran group had things relatively locked down and obviously had big impacts on Pettersson, Hughes and Demko.

I refuse to believe Benning did not stumble into this as he is an idiot and it’s unlikely he did it completely on purpose based on his body of work, but there was a brief window there where they maybe had a shot if they played it right. Much to my surprise.

Rutherford had a rebuild on the fly window pre-deadline last year and this summer. Post Miller contract it is largely closed as you won’t be moving much salary in trade, and the salary that does come off the books will largely be allocated to extensions and sub-optimal replacements in free agency.

Sans some seriously surprising push from below supplying a fresh set of ELCs … there is not much that can be done. The true Catch-22 is that you likely need to move draft picks to remedy the cap situation, but you also need those picks to supply ELCs to also … fix the cap situation.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I definitely think there are other paths that can be successful such as re-tooling on the fly. The problem with that path though is that you need more hits than misses. The Canucks this past decade have had far too many misses and have completely botched just about every opportunity they had to re-tool and reboot the team. It didn't help that they employed a guy who had absolutely no business being a General Manager and they did so for almost a decade. Benning had some hits, but he had far more misses that set this Franchise back too far.

At this stage I really don't know what to think. The Miller extension made no sense to me, and it will cripple this team for years. That is just way too much cap tied up for an almost 30-year-old player who was never an elite level player and whose best days are fast becoming a rear-view mirror image.

What do you when you literally stink year after year, and you still cant get into the top 4 of the NHL draft..?..The last time that happened was 23 years ago when we got the Sedins...Its looking more and more like you have to be beyond awful for 5+ years to land franchise/generational players...(probably why the new Arizona management is intentionally putting dog shit on the ice for the third year in a row...and be rewarded for doing so...something is broken here..IMO).

As for Millers contract crippling the Canucks...the financial landscape of the NHL could look very different two years from now..So I'll hold off on saying that for now.

 

[MikeK]

What do you when you literally stink year after year, and you still cant get into the top 4 of the NHL draft..?..The last time that happened was 23 years ago when we got the Sedins...Its looking more and more like you have to be beyond awful for 5+ years to land franchise/generational players...(probably why the new Arizona management is intentionally putting dog shit on the ice for the third year in a row...and be rewarded for doing so...something is broken here..IMO).

As for Millers contract crippling the Canucks...the financial landscape of the NHL could look very different two years from now..So I'll hold off on saying that for now.

There is no way Miller is going to be worth that contract for even half its length. He's going to be 30 before that deal even kicks in. Having $8m tied up in an aging Miller will cost us at least one of our young players. Too me, that is crippling. I guarantee that Miller extension is going to go down as one of the worst contracts this Franchise has ever given out. Just talking about it makes me angry. It's one of the worst contracts in the league and it hasn't even started.

 

[MarkMM]

There is still a way out, RETENTION.

How many teams would turn down Horvat at 2.75 mil, Garland at 2.5, even Boeser at 3.2 while he still has rep or Miller at 4 or 5 mil?

Same with OEL at 4 mil.


All teams are hit with cap issues but a rebuilding team can take on these expenses especially if the owner is willing to spend like Aquilini has for the last 8 years with the same results in the standings.

Using retention this group would have to make a decision to rebuild, to blow it up and stick to it, a 3/4 year plan. The fans here are not much different than in TO if anything more patient. A rebuild here with a plan would be embraced by most of the market, media and sports shows just as they have been tolerant for most of the last 8 years of stagnation.

Retention is the way out, but there would be pain from fan favs leaving too. Can't make an omelet with cracking some eggs

RETETNION

Broadly agree, but wouldn't do retention where it's not necessary, and also wouldn't do multi-year retention.

Horvat with retention should get us a haul from a contender.

Garland isn't negative value, would let him play out the year and if he does well then should probably get a return without having to do retention or add, especially with the rising cap. Even if not, we'll have to have some players to hold down roster spots and provide a framework for all the young players we're going to bring in, with Garland's drive and compeitiveness he's not the worst for that.

Boeser either has to raise his game which I think he would and then I think there'd be a team that would take him, maybe not at good value but I wouldn't add futures to her and wouldn't retain anything.

Miller is harder, yeah, might be hard to move him, and might just need to hold on to him, same with OEL, wouln't retain over that time period. Would rather sign one-year rentals that we retain and auction at TDL each year.

Retaining for multiple years really hurts trade flexibility. Retaining when a guy has a year or two left should obviously be part of the plan and if they move Horvat you would hope that's part of it to increase the return. Same with Myers.

Agreed.

digesting that interview last night, i think rutherford is an impressive character. under the smiley exterior he is a serious thoughtful hockey guy who pulled no punches in about the toughest interview situation you can imagine by quietly speaking his mind if you listened carefully. he politely bantered over all the old school stuff but he was humouring garrett all the way.

i imagine his relationship with boudreau is not far off his relationship with garrett in the interview.

i think rutherford told us where he thinks they are at. management like the offence and hate the defence and coaching which, to some extent, overlaps.

they want a more dedicated systems coach in place to establish a strong system and team identity that replacement players can play when injuries arise, and who will not tolerate any bad habits.

boudreau is a player's coach who relies on the leaders in the room to work with him to pull it together into a loose system that compliments the skills of those players. if they can do it, it is fantastic for the players who get to play hockey the way they love it with lots of rope, but if it does not work things fall apart very badly as they are now.

if boudreau can turn this around, then i expect management to wait and make their bigger moves later in the season. maybe continue to chase guys like dermott.

buit if boudreau is a lame duck or gone, i expect them to make two moves as soon as they can. one a salary dump where we get a low return or pay to move a good player and one the movement of draft picks/ valued young asset(s), all to steady the defence. it is possible they do both all at once by moving horvat. that depends on room stuff it is impossible for me to gauge, but i think it is more likely two moves and we will give up assets like hoglander, rathbone and garland for a pretty underwhelming return.

my guess is our target will be a currently well paid but steady and disciplined mid-4 defenceman with grit. i'd look for them to seek out a guy in the mold of dumoulin or cole.

i have been thinking about that. it was reported that the team had an option to renew and boudreau had an option to walk. which really makes no sense. they didn't need a contract term to be able to make him an offer he was free to reject.

perhaps the devil is in the details or verbal promises were made to bruce that if he blew the doors off they would offer.

Canucks not ready to give Boudreau contract extension despite turnaround | NHL.com

President prefers full season to evaluate; went 32-15-10 after replacing Green as coach Dec. 5

www.nhl.com

what i assumed happened last summer is boudreau tried to improve the money and the team stood firm so in the end he took the offer.

whatever prompted the comment by rutherford, he obviously thinks coaching is a big problem and he was basically choking on the fact they renewed boudreau to the point he put it out there that he had no choice which, if true, is clearly something they were not saying publicly before.



horvat maybe. i feel he is a solid player put in the impossible position of being captain on a team with three guys who are better than him and have captain-like characteristics, but i also think he has disappointed as a captain and i have always thought he did not have the team under control.

miller is going nowhere right now. his market value is impacted by his bozo like tendencies and there is no way anyone is going to take him in peak bozo mode.

Rutherford and Alvin were getting a lot of hate for not enthusiastically renewing Boudreau. Now as much as I love Boudreau, it does look like management knew what they were doing when they were warning about the lack of structure and preparation for the team.

 

[Bgav]

Can’t wait for the next ten years of not rebuilding

 

[Breakers]

Patrik Alvin as soon as the season started letting Rutherford take the full brunt of this disaster.