Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching

[4th line culture]

Burn it to the ground? Wait and see?

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

I am extremely jealous of the people who enjoyed the Jim Benning era because the next one isn’t going to bear any fruit either. They’re set!

 

[VanillaCoke]

Burn it to the ground? Wait and see?

wait and see forever.
First it was just evaluating, then just the tdl, season just ended, just evaluating still, just FA, just a couple weeks past fa, just a month into summer, training camp just starting, just the first two games, only been 10 months some fans expecting changes right away are just dumb and impatient.

Just the same team, same issues, same mgmt sitting on their hands.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

wait and see forever.
First it was just evaluating, then just the tdl, season just ended, just evaluating still, just FA, just a couple weeks past fa, just a month into summer, training camp just starting, just the first two games, only been 10 months some fans expecting changes right away are just dumb and impatient.

Just the same team, same issues, same mgmt sitting on their hands.

If we wait long enough we may get to get abused badly in the second round again and be two time Jim Benning Fake Stanley Cup champs.

 

[Hit the post]

I am extremely jealous of the people who enjoyed the Jim Benning era because the next one isn’t going to bear any fruit either. They’re set!

 

[Vancouver_2010]

I already have none though

 

[SeawaterOnIce]

New management has been very unspectacular to start. There have been a few wins but the unforced error of not unloading Miller in early 2022 combined with keeping Boeser will haunt this franchise for years to come.

If they lock in Horvat...it will be very hard to follow this team for the next 4-5 years. Really need to make some changes with leadership and prioritize speed.

 

[CherryToke]

Burn it to the ground? Wait and see?

while Owner == Blueberries:
if Owner != Blueberries:
print("Burn it to the ground")
break
print("Wait and see")

 

[4th line culture]

while Owner == Blueberries:
if Owner != Blueberries:
print("Burn it to the ground")
break
print("Wait and see")

What language is this?

 

[CherryToke]

What language is this?

python

 

[Coffee]

@VanillaCoke @geebaan

Would you guys trade

Pettersson
Hughes
Demko
for
2024 7th overall
2025 7th overall
2026 7th overall


EVERYONE, FEEL FREE TO PARTICIPATE, I APPRECIATE IT

 

[Frostage]

When you look at what occurred in Pittsburgh, are any of you really surprised?

 

[Fatass]

wait and see forever.
First it was just evaluating, then just the tdl, season just ended, just evaluating still, just FA, just a couple weeks past fa, just a month into summer, training camp just starting, just the first two games, only been 10 months some fans expecting changes right away are just dumb and impatient.

Just the same team, same issues, same mgmt sitting on their hands.

And the same owner, who refuses to allow for a much needed rebuild, or at least a couple steps back re-set.

 

[4th line culture]

python

- .... .- - .----. ... / -.-. --- --- .-..

 

[Hodgy]

You wanted to let Boeser walk and trade Miller. You're at 2 core players. I wanted to trade 1 more than you, plus get rid of OEL's contract so we don't have that ticking time bomb staring us in the face.

I think part of the problem with these debates is that not enough emphasis has been placed on the fact that Benning left this team in a horrific position and that none of the paths forward are particularly good. So we are probably arguing about Option A which is a 25% success rate and Option B which is a 15% success rate. I know we all generally understand this, but this more emphasis on this point would help anchor the discussion.

By way of a segue, I think your option has a very low success rate given the current market and I think your above comment shows this. So you want to let Boeser go, trade Miller and another core player. But you also want to trade OEL. Given the market, you are probably giving up two firsts to get rid of OEL (although frankly, you may have to give up more or also retain). I don’t think you are getting back the equivalent value of two firsts for Miller. So you are at a deficit right there. So then you probably trade Horvat, and you might get a first in the 20s and a B prospect. Let’s just say the B prospect saws off the rest of the OEL deficit (that’s perhaps optimistic) so your net gain is a first in the 20s. Your team, with Demko, is still not going to bottom out and you are probably picking around 10th overall a couple of times.

So after a couple of seasons, you have zero centre depth, Petey, Hughes and Demko are at the top of their primes, and you’ve picked 5-10 picks higher in a couple of drafts and added a mid 20s first. There is a pretty good chance 1-2 of your firsts busts either completely or to the extent that they are not a first line player. With the other pick, you may end up with a top line player. But keep in mind, that likely won’t occur for a few more seasons missing the above mentioned cores prime.

Anyway, the above isn’t meant to be comprehensive. Of course there are hundreds of variables and I don’t doubt that you could make many reasonable critiques of the above. But the point is it’s not a great option by any stretch of the imagination. According, I don’t think it makes sense to be extremely critical of the current managers option.

For the record, I would have torn it down to the studs.

 

[supercanuck]

while Owner == Blueberries:
if Owner != Blueberries:
print("Burn it to the ground")
break
print("Wait and see")

Stupid question as my coding is not good. Does this just print "Wait and see" no matter what?

 

[mathonwy]

@VanillaCoke @geebaan

Would you guys trade

Pettersson
Hughes
Demko
for
2024 7th overall
2025 7th overall
2026 7th overall


EVERYONE, FEEL FREE TO PARTICIPATE, I APPRECIATE IT

Is everything ok?

Do you need emergency services?

 

[Jyrki21]

This discussion about taking the least crappy path with a choice of crappy paths just reinforces my belief how much North American sports – and sports fans – suffer from the Cup-or-bust structure of the league.

If there were secondary competitions, regional cups, champions leagues, pro/reg, whatever, at least you can pursue multiple goals at once and have something to enjoy even when you know you’re not winning the 1/32 lottery that is the playoff champion. That’s obviously the crowning achievement that we all dream of, but we have a real problem when 31 fanbases feel they would have been better off getting a high pick than finishing anywhere other than as the Cup champion. Fans themselves contribute to this by mocking regular-season achievements (which are actually how the rest of the world measures relative standing) or reading more into the coin flip of what “round” you attained no matter how the season went or why. But the league and IIHF have also provided little alternative.

The Whitecaps have literally no hope in hell of winning an MLS Cup, not unless things change dramatically. It pretty much can’t happen. But at least we can enjoy the odd domestic championship, the CONCACAF champions league, the Cascadia Cup rivalry, etc. and have something to care about rather than seeing it as a binary outcome with absolutely terrible odds. There’s so little to incentivize paying attention right now, apart from the addiction we basically all have.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

This discussion about taking the least crappy path with a choice of crappy paths just reinforces my belief how much North American sports – and sports fans – suffer from the Cup-or-bust structure of the league.

If there were secondary competitions, regional cups, champions leagues, pro/reg, whatever, at least you can pursue multiple goals at once and have something to enjoy even when you know you’re not winning the 1/32 lottery that is the playoff champion. That’s obviously the crowning achievement that we all dream of, but we have a real problem when 31 fanbases feel they would have been better off getting a high pick than finishing anywhere other than as the Cup champion. Fans themselves contribute to this by mocking regular-season achievements (which are actually how the rest of the world measures relative standing) or reading more into the coin flip of what “round” you attained no matter how the season went or why. But the league and IIHF have also provided little alternative.

The Whitecaps have literally no hope in hell of winning an MLS Cup, not unless things change dramatically. It pretty much can’t happen. But at least we can enjoy the odd domestic championship, the CONCACAF champions league, the Cascadia Cup rivalry, etc. and have something to care about rather than seeing it as a binary outcome with absolutely terrible odds. There’s so little to incentivize paying attention right now, apart from the addiction we basically all have.

An idea that I had for draft position is count points in games between every non playoff team from the year before. The draft order is decided by descending order of whoever has the highest points percentage in those games. So the team with the highest point percentage in the non playoff games gets first overall. This would bring more stakes in games of lesser teams and would eliminate tanking.

 

[Hit the post]

This discussion about taking the least crappy path with a choice of crappy paths just reinforces my belief how much North American sports – and sports fans – suffer from the Cup-or-bust structure of the league.

If there were secondary competitions, regional cups, champions leagues, pro/reg, whatever, at least you can pursue multiple goals at once and have something to enjoy even when you know you’re not winning the 1/32 lottery that is the playoff champion. That’s obviously the crowning achievement that we all dream of, but we have a real problem when 31 fanbases feel they would have been better off getting a high pick than finishing anywhere other than as the Cup champion. Fans themselves contribute to this by mocking regular-season achievements (which are actually how the rest of the world measures relative standing) or reading more into the coin flip of what “round” you attained no matter how the season went or why. But the league and IIHF have also provided little alternative.

The Whitecaps have literally no hope in hell of winning an MLS Cup, not unless things change dramatically. It pretty much can’t happen. But at least we can enjoy the odd domestic championship, the CONCACAF champions league, the Cascadia Cup rivalry, etc. and have something to care about rather than seeing it as a binary outcome with absolutely terrible odds. There’s so little to incentivize paying attention right now, apart from the addiction we basically all have.

Better chance for Frankie to be honored with this:

 

[CherryToke]

Stupid question as my coding is not good. Does this just print "Wait and see" no matter what?

Well the idea was to just loop and print "Wait and see" while Blueberries is the owner but I f***ed it up with the if statement since it's completely unnecessary. My coding is also garbage so dont bother trying to understand it lol

 

[theguardianII]

This discussion about taking the least crappy path with a choice of crappy paths just reinforces my belief how much North American sports – and sports fans – suffer from the Cup-or-bust structure of the league.

If there were secondary competitions, regional cups, champions leagues, pro/reg, whatever, at least you can pursue multiple goals at once and have something to enjoy even when you know you’re not winning the 1/32 lottery that is the playoff champion. That’s obviously the crowning achievement that we all dream of, but we have a real problem when 31 fanbases feel they would have been better off getting a high pick than finishing anywhere other than as the Cup champion. Fans themselves contribute to this by mocking regular-season achievements (which are actually how the rest of the world measures relative standing) or reading more into the coin flip of what “round” you attained no matter how the season went or why. But the league and IIHF have also provided little alternative.

The Whitecaps have literally no hope in hell of winning an MLS Cup, not unless things change dramatically. It pretty much can’t happen. But at least we can enjoy the odd domestic championship, the CONCACAF champions league, the Cascadia Cup rivalry, etc. and have something to care about rather than seeing it as a binary outcome with absolutely terrible odds. There’s so little to incentivize paying attention right now, apart from the addiction we basically all have.

But they have that in the NHL already or they are trying to market that idea, Divisional champs, Conference champs, Cup winners.

I remember Burke once saying they wanted to win some championship and he was referring to those.

I wonder about this thread, is it still about the past pre season or the next?

 

[mriswith]

I think part of the problem with these debates is that not enough emphasis has been placed on the fact that Benning left this team in a horrific position and that none of the paths forward are particularly good. So we are probably arguing about Option A which is a 25% success rate and Option B which is a 15% success rate. I know we all generally understand this, but this more emphasis on this point would help anchor the discussion.

By way of a segue, I think your option has a very low success rate given the current market and I think your above comment shows this. So you want to let Boeser go, trade Miller and another core player. But you also want to trade OEL. Given the market, you are probably giving up two firsts to get rid of OEL (although frankly, you may have to give up more or also retain). I don’t think you are getting back the equivalent value of two firsts for Miller. So you are at a deficit right there. So then you probably trade Horvat, and you might get a first in the 20s and a B prospect. Let’s just say the B prospect saws off the rest of the OEL deficit (that’s perhaps optimistic) so your net gain is a first in the 20s. Your team, with Demko, is still not going to bottom out and you are probably picking around 10th overall a couple of times.

So after a couple of seasons, you have zero centre depth, Petey, Hughes and Demko are at the top of their primes, and you’ve picked 5-10 picks higher in a couple of drafts and added a mid 20s first. There is a pretty good chance 1-2 of your firsts busts either completely or to the extent that they are not a first line player. With the other pick, you may end up with a top line player. But keep in mind, that likely won’t occur for a few more seasons missing the above mentioned cores prime.

Anyway, the above isn’t meant to be comprehensive. Of course there are hundreds of variables and I don’t doubt that you could make many reasonable critiques of the above. But the point is it’s not a great option by any stretch of the imagination. According, I don’t think it makes sense to be extremely critical of the current managers option.

For the record, I would have torn it down to the studs.

I agree there were multiple viable options and none of them were good. I don't mind if someone thinks other plans are better and I gave up on this idea ages ago because it's far too late now, but I will disagree with someone who thinks this wasn't a viable option.

To clarify, my idea last year was immediately open up the trade market for Horvat and Miller both 50% retained the minute Benning was fired. Explore if OEL can be dumped with 1 - 1.5M retention rather than pay assets, at 5.76M - 6.26M he'd have value. Trade Myers somewhere in the offseason and get him and OEL waiving by telling them we're reloading. Wait to trade extended Boeser until the first moment that he gets hot this season rather than when he was slumping with a huge QO looming last year or just letting him walk.

If you run 15-20 mil under the cap, and you don't have ELC's or ELC type contracts creating massive surplus value, you are a bottom 5 team no matter what names are on the back of the jersey. People underestimate this, with an 80~ mil cap running 20 mil under is like playing the entire game 4v5.

It's not an ideal situation but you emerge after two years with a ton of options, which is precisely what we lack right now. We are extremely likely to be mediocre the next 2 seasons so there's no significant opportunity cost. You end up with some surplus assets, two high drafts, 15-20M cap space, and most importantly no long term commitments to ticking time bomb UFA deals that lock a team into mediocrity.

Even if we were committed to the idea of competing right now, I still wanted a huge amount of roster turnover for team culture reasons. Going into the season with basically the same roster was a worst case scenario to me, although I give our management team some amount of a pass because of how unusually gridlocked the market was and because of the rumour that they had a deal for Myers and he refused to waive.

 

[andora]

So thats over 20 million out and none back in.. this is what i dont get.. even paying the price who is adding ekman larsson and myers..

What teams are good enough to where these players help them that can work that much money in without the depth on defence to make it justifiable

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

Better chance for Frankie to be honored with this:

Little known fact: World’s Greatest supersedes Number One.