That’s from about 1/5th of the way through season. They finished the year at 2.55xGA/60 and a negative expected goal differential.
Management Discussion | Pre-Season Approaching
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Peter Griffin
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- Feb 13, 2003
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Thats easier said than done.
I have been vocal about not trading Horvat, but as with any player on this team if you get the right return, you make it.
Horvat is going to be very interesting. IMO he doesn’t really seem to fit with how this management team says it wants to play. Like Bo will never be a ‘high paced’ player.
And the question of whether they should be signing aging players to retirement deals when a team isn’t good, is definitely one worth asking.
I’d take whatever I could get and utilize the cap space to fill a hole on d. But they have certainly made it interesting by going into the season with him on the roster with no extension.
Hit the post
I have your gold medal Zippy!
I'd would find it more interesting to see either EP or Miller having to actually check in defensive zone assignments. Not saying they'd fail horribly but they haven't had to worry about that with Horvat handling some of that thankless job (not saying Horvat was Selke material either but he's best in that part of the game on this particular roster right now).
Peter Griffin
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The only scenario I see making sense to keep Horvat is if he accepts a discounted deal, which doesn't sound like it will be the case. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see this management group use Horvat to garner the return they were hoping to leverage out of a Miller trade. That said, I also wouldn't be surprised with a contract extension.
Perception vs. reality on the Duchene trade is so bizarre.
There's this huge Mandela effect where fans seem to universally believe that Colorado decided to re-set their rebuild by trading away superstar Matt Duchene and then suffered another couple years of losing but added Makar out of the deal.
And ... that's not what happened at all.
They had already bottomed out. They had already drafted Makar. They were having their breakout season and made the playoffs in the season Duchene was traded.
And Duchene was not a key cog. He'd been playing terrible hockey for the previous couple years and was viewed as a major off-ice problem (something confirmed on the Phoenix taxi ride after he went to Ottawa). They'd signed Alex Kerfoot and he was outplaying Duchene and they wanted to get Kerfoot more minutes (Duchene's had already plummeted that season before the trade). So they smartly sold high on reputation for a guy who was approaching a huge UFA payday when they felt they had a better internal replacement. And kept on trucking.
It would basically be like managing to get a king's ransom for Brock Boeser right now after Kuzmenko has come in and looked better. It wasn't a tanking transaction. It wasn't a major re-set.
There's this huge Mandela effect where fans seem to universally believe that Colorado decided to re-set their rebuild by trading away superstar Matt Duchene and then suffered another couple years of losing but added Makar out of the deal.
And ... that's not what happened at all.
They had already bottomed out. They had already drafted Makar. They were having their breakout season and made the playoffs in the season Duchene was traded.
And Duchene was not a key cog. He'd been playing terrible hockey for the previous couple years and was viewed as a major off-ice problem (something confirmed on the Phoenix taxi ride after he went to Ottawa). They'd signed Alex Kerfoot and he was outplaying Duchene and they wanted to get Kerfoot more minutes (Duchene's had already plummeted that season before the trade). So they smartly sold high on reputation for a guy who was approaching a huge UFA payday when they felt they had a better internal replacement. And kept on trucking.
It would basically be like managing to get a king's ransom for Brock Boeser right now after Kuzmenko has come in and looked better. It wasn't a tanking transaction. It wasn't a major re-set.
Peter Griffin
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If the deal is there, sure. But the market seems incredibly different from what it was at that point - and even relative to the market at the time Colorado knocked that deal out of the park.
Like, if Philly wanted to offer us Ronnie Attard + their unprotected #1 pick + a pile of other futures for Horvat (which would basically be the Duchene deal), sign me up. But I don't hold out a lot of hope of anything like that being on the table.
I don't think signing Horvat to a contract hurts our cap. People like to say you can't have that much money tied to Centre, and I think it is more tied to forwards, as Both Petey and Miller can play wing. I also think you build from the centre out.
To give an example or two, Tamp this season is spending 21 million on their centres Toronto 27 mil, and the Oilers 26 mil. Yes some of these guys play wing at times too, but again so do Miller and Petey.
Preferably we can move out a winger for a top 4 d, and then move myers in the offseason to reset the cap allocation, and find another top 4.
Long story short this is semantics. Also a bit of narrative.
A major reset is what most people want. Some folks are going on about tanking but many felt this group didn’t need to be doubled down on.
Continually acting like it’s ludicrous to suggest moving UFA’s and a high priced RFA in the name of a major reset is weird. It’s like you’re trying to close the discussion but literally can’t not comment.
Yeah it’s unfortunate there’s no Kerfoot or anything similar here on defence pushing for minutes, but that’a exactly why folks think it made sense to find some by dealing away expiring veteran contracts.
Peter Griffin
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I don't think it's realistic to expect the same valuation Duchene garnered for Colorado, Duchene had almost 2 full years left on his deal at the time of the trade. But instead of paying Horvat $7M+ on a longterm extension, maybe moving him for some younger assets, and re-investing that money into the defense and a more defensively responsible 3rd line center is a smarter move longterm.
I honestly think the Boeser extension will come back to bite them. They were put in a pretty bad position there though so I can't fault them too much, but at this point, that contract could be viewed as a negative asset. Hopefully he rebounds this season and the team can gain some leverage in terms of moving out a winger.
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Ernie
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- Aug 3, 2004
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Friedman tried to use Couturier as a Horvat comparable a while back.
If that's how Horvat is viewed by other teams in the league, the Canucks should absolutely sell high on this player.
Realistically though they'll have him play through the season then evaluate towards the deadline. They won't trade the captain away if the team is competitive but if things go awry, I expect him to be gone.
If that's how Horvat is viewed by other teams in the league, the Canucks should absolutely sell high on this player.
Realistically though they'll have him play through the season then evaluate towards the deadline. They won't trade the captain away if the team is competitive but if things go awry, I expect him to be gone.
krutovsdonut
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i guess i am in the minority that i think we should prioritize re-signing the guy. i think horvat is still going to get better offensively, potentially this year. he's smart, efficient and has the rare quality of playing a physical role without being ground down. as a result, i think he has low miles on his body for the position he plays. he's also been playing with jt miller who plays a game horvat can borrow from and is now playing with numerous flashy players who will draw attention. if he can avoid losing a step and they play boudreau hockey all year, i foresee a significant bump in his production.
i also obviously like him for the playoffs.
the wild card is how he feels right now on the team watching every single good player around him get paid, then being lowballed because there is no cap left. i'd be making it a priority to sign him right now.
i also obviously like him for the playoffs.
the wild card is how he feels right now on the team watching every single good player around him get paid, then being lowballed because there is no cap left. i'd be making it a priority to sign him right now.
Just A Bit Outside
Playoffs??!
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Mgmt chose Miller over Horvat.
Horvat will either be traded or sign somewhere else as a UFA (because team will make the playoffs or be close enough to it at the TDL).
I’d bet money Horvat is not back next year.
Horvat will either be traded or sign somewhere else as a UFA (because team will make the playoffs or be close enough to it at the TDL).
I’d bet money Horvat is not back next year.
It's not semantics at all. People are holding that transaction up as an example of a team doing a 'big reset' and profiting when it was anything but. It was analogous to us dumping Boeser this summer except for a massive return.
As I just said above, if Philly wants to give us Ronnie Attard and their unprotected #1 for Horvat and Boeser, sign me up. That would be a great long-term transaction and also works great for the blueline in the short term. Problem is that trades like that simply don't exist and there's a reason that that deal sticks out like a sore thumb and everyone remembers it 5 years later.
I have zero problems moving a high-priced RFA or pending UFA. As I've said repeatedly, I would have fired Boeser out of a cannon.
The 'major reset' doesn't make sense when you look at the ages of the players and where the team is at. It has no endgame, and it completely ignores what happened to the team in 2020 the last time we had a 'surprising reset'. And the notion of a full tank is absolutely ludicrous.
Also highly disagree that a major reset is what most people want. In the fanbase as a whole, it's a tiny percentage that want this. Look at the reaction to the Boeser re-signing. The masses love this core. Even amongst the hardcore messageboard types, I'd still say it's a minority that want a massive reset or rebuild.
Josepho
i want the bartkowski thread back
And Arizona and Montreal are just as bad.
There are going to be 3 absolutely horrific teams in the NHL this year and there is basically zero chance of finishing behind any of them, even if we bizarrely went on a Tank for Bedard plan. It's just such an absurdly comical notion on all fronts.
Am I going insane or did Dickonson not make their opening night roster? Did I miss something.
He's having visa issues and will miss the first few games.
Definitely no way we can out-tank MTL either. I thought the Canucks D was bad (and it still is), but it's nowhere near this bad:
Ernie
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Horvat is 27. Statistically speaking, his best years are probably behind him.
He's being lowballed because people assign him all these intangible qualities that in reality don't pan out. He's a quality 2nd line scoring center with average defensive awareness who has entered the 2nd half of his career. It would be nice to re-sign him for a 3-4 year deal but that's not what he's looking for.
Low key I wouldn't be surprised if management wants to move on to new leadership for the team.
Just A Bit Outside
Playoffs??!
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100% convinced Chicago will tank, win 1 OV and draft Bedard.
Zona doesn’t deserve him.
MTL just drafted 1 OV.
Hawks then eventually go on to win a Cup before Van.
Zona doesn’t deserve him.
MTL just drafted 1 OV.
Hawks then eventually go on to win a Cup before Van.
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