Management Discussion | Just Have a Plan

[PG Canuck]

This is such a bad take. Here is the thing, Bruce deserves to be fired because frankly he has done a terrible job but at the same time, he earned his chance to coach this season based on what he did last season. So I don’t see anything wrong with them letting BB go on even if he is not his guy.
So with him failing so hard this season, sure you can argue from a merit perspective, he should be fired but from at the same time, he is still being paid to do the thing he was given a chance to.

Like can you imagine the horror of not doing your job right and not being paid to go way? Actually I can’t because that’s not how it works for any of us.

And regarding oh it’s disrespectful that they are talking to other coaches before firing him. Come on, look at the record. It’s not like he is killing it and they are looking to stab his back by finding another person despite him delivering. If he doesn’t expect management to look for other coaches with the results he is delivering then he’s in some weird fantasy.

If he is truly that miserable, he can f***ing quit. This is not a binding contract where he has no outs. It’s like why do we feel sorry for somebody else not getting paid to go away?

This is such a bad take

 

[arttk]

This is such a bad take

Live in reality no?

Imagine if you are paid 1.5M+ to do a job and you failed.
Would you find it strange if the org that hired you is looking for a replacement.
Would you find it disgraceful that they won’t fire you, but keep paying you, for your own failures?

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Live in reality no?

Imagine if you are paid 1.5M+ to do a job and you failed.
Would you find it strange if the org that hired you is looking for a replacement.
Would you find it disgraceful that they won’t fire you, but keep paying you, for your own failures?

You are ok if your boss publicly and repeatedly humiliate you for doing a poor job (providing you with a set of crappy tools no less), while leaving you to answering questions daily about your situation and your subordinates wondering why they should listen to you instead of doing their own thing, and you are trying to keep a team working cohesively together?

If that happens to you, I'll feel sorry for you too. There is some baseline level of respect and decency expected in every work place, and what is happening now is not it at all.

 

[theguardianII]

A) I think its unrealistic to retain that much salary over such a long period of time. The only time that has happened is with Burns and Sj only retained 2.7M. I don’t understand why it’s even worth it to propose ideas that are completely unrealistic. Yeah it’s not your money but at the same time it’s not your money.
B) he is not even a 3.75M player right now. His defense is so bad that even if he puts up pp points, he won’t be worth that. LD is not that in demand compared to RHD

C) he has a nmc

What else to do, buying him out costs more for longer and it still a cap hit with nothing in return. The rumour was he would waive to go to Boston.
Did Vancouver even agree to take the NMC part of the contract?

He was Hughes in Arizona, not expected to be a stalwart defensive dman

 

[theguardianII]

How JR keep going on record trashing his coach in the media, saying this like "I didn't know he has a 2nd year on his contract", that's not necessary nor professional.

I am pretty sure JR stated he knew BB was around for another year at his introduction

 

[Toss it to Tanti]

NHL still owns the team anyway, just number of facemen out there. I mean if the NHL holds all the mortgage then they own the team.

Has anyone considered that Horvat has been a good soldier trying to do what was asked, be a defensive first player or trying to be but once he decided that points pay he went to offence.

His rights could be traded





Dahli is starting to become erratic and getting hard to watch. He really starts playing a fan position as juvenile and naive

Retention allows just about all the teams in the league to trade for him, the remaining cap hit is like 2.75 mil and with 50% retention who can't afford that?

No the 6 mil cap hit remains and is super valuable to Arizona. A team with next to no tickets sales. It might even be worth Valimaki and some of those picks or Guenther.

Boeser is a done deal, but can be traded.

I hate to think but I don't think anyone is moving except MAYBE Horvat.

I think the PLAN is to have the new coach start and get the benefit of several teams tanking getting some wins from those teams.
Then they can do nothing and say "we need to see what the new guy can do"



What a sad state of affairs.

The new coach could be booed for his entire tenure here, this kind of stuff sticks for years.

It is possible that Yeo refused to do this to his mentor, they had a relationship way back in Minny.

Management is so disconnected from the fan base

There is a need for fans to express directly with management where they can't ignore what is being said

On the two points around retention and

NHL still owns the team anyway, just number of facemen out there. I mean if the NHL holds all the mortgage then they own the team.

Has anyone considered that Horvat has been a good soldier trying to do what was asked, be a defensive first player or trying to be but once he decided that points pay he went to offence.

His rights could be traded





Dahli is starting to become erratic and getting hard to watch. He really starts playing a fan position as juvenile and naive

Retention allows just about all the teams in the league to trade for him, the remaining cap hit is like 2.75 mil and with 50% retention who can't afford that?

No the 6 mil cap hit remains and is super valuable to Arizona. A team with next to no tickets sales. It might even be worth Valimaki and some of those picks or Guenther.

Boeser is a done deal, but can be traded.

I hate to think but I don't think anyone is moving except MAYBE Horvat.

I think the PLAN is to have the new coach start and get the benefit of several teams tanking getting some wins from those teams.
Then they can do nothing and say "we need to see what the new guy can do"



What a sad state of affairs.

The new coach could be booed for his entire tenure here, this kind of stuff sticks for years.

It is possible that Yeo refused to do this to his mentor, they had a relationship way back in Minny.

Management is so disconnected from the fan base

There is a need for fans to express directly with management where they can't ignore what is being said

My point around contending teams not being able to afford to take on a bad contract was if we were attaching a bad contract to Bo. For instance if we were trying to trade Bo + Brock, it would be really hard to imagine a team having the cap space for 8+ million (even if we max retain on Horvat). Plus when have you ever seen a team bringing in 2 top 9 pieces, usually if you’re trading for rentals, it’s because you’re wanting to shore up depth, or add a knockout punch to your top 6, not surgically repair your top 9 with foreign appendages.

Also, Myers next year is no where near worth Guenther. I would think Myers next year after the bonus is paid, may be worth a 3rd to 4th round pick, and likely only to Ottawa as they’re a budget team wanting to compete for the playoffs. At the deadline next year he may be worth similar value to a contender.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

I am pretty sure JR stated he knew BB was around for another year at his introduction

I thought in one of his interview on Hockey Night in Canada, he said he wasn't aware of BB's 2nd year option?

 

[arttk]

You are ok if your boss publicly and repeatedly humiliate you for doing a poor job (providing you with a set of crappy tools no less), while leaving you to answering questions daily about your situation and your subordinates wondering why they should listen to you instead of doing their own thing, and you are trying to keep a team working cohesively together?

If that happens to you, I'll feel sorry for you too. There is some baseline level of respect and decency expected in every work place, and what is happening now is not it at all.

If you are a roofer and your boss saids the roof is leaking and the preparation before the roofing was done is subpar, is that humiliating?
JR in his interview said the pre-season was bad and the team system is not there. What part of that is humiliating? The fact the results line up with what he said and what we see?
It seems like you guys can’t separate valid criticism with personal attacks. It’s like it’s not even allowable now days to come out and critique the actual results, that’s f***ing insane. If JR came out and said oh BB sucks, he is sloppy or whatever, sure that crosses the line. But he underperformed when the team came out and lost 7 straight. I actually appreciate it when there is some honesty about it after losing 7 straight rather than just sugar coating something that we all see.

Actually in my line of work, my output goes through pretty harsh critique and as long as it’s about the work it’s fine. Because that’s how you improve. So when I see JR coming out saying the system is not implemented the way they want it, yeah that checks out. There is nothing factually wrong or personally insulting with that statement.

I really don’t understand how you all bought into this dumb narrative.

 

[4Twenty]

Some accounts would tell you human shit tastes good if it paints Rutherford in a positive light.

It’s wild.

 

[rypper]

I am pretty sure JR stated he knew BB was around for another year at his introduction

Maybe he has dementia because on HNIC's after hours about 2 months ago he revealed he didn't know about it.

 

[Toss it to Tanti]

So ultimately, she has no say? Her hands are tied so all she does is load up a contract template and fill in some blanks? Like I said before, maybe that really is all she was hired to do, in that case she is doing a good job. But the way they promoted her education/experience, I was expecting a Gilman-type capologist coming in.

Well based on the summer transactions, I don't really see any leverage Boeser had. Most teams are capped out with their own players to sign. He was coming off 2 bad seasons. He has an injury history. He plays a non-premium position. He is a slow and soft one-dimensional winger and we all see how valuable they were (even productive ones like Bjorkstrand returned very little). We aren't one Boeser away from being a contending, or even competitive, team. We have our own cap hell to deal with, especially after signing Mikheyev. We had more wingers than spots available, having to now demote Pod and Hog due to lack of playing time or opportunities. I definitely don't see any team giving him 6-7 years deal at $6m+, but GMs do dumb things so if somebody else wants to shoot themselves in the foot, let them? I think even at the time of signing, most people recognize the extension was a massive risk based on all the above, so I'm not really seeing where the leverage is coming from.

If you go and read any of the replies in this thread that’ll tell you the leverage Boeser had.

You don’t think Columbus, Detroit, Philadelphia, etc would have given him a long-term contract if he walked to UFA? Those teams are desperate for younger scoring talent.

What if we didn’t resign Boeser, and he put up 30/30? This board would have been rife with “experts” talking about how we should have kept him and how bad we are at wasting assets. Hindsight is always 20/20 and this management group was dealt a dud by Benning with his QO.

Finally, this is all speculation right? I don’t have Emilie’s contract in front of me, but I run a business and have a pretty good understanding of what the different faction of my business do, and how the report to me to make the decisions.

Emilie’s job is the role of the accountant essentially, trying to find the most efficient way of staying under budget, finding creative ways to do so, and providing her opinion on long term outlook. She may have been against the JTM/Boeser/Mikehyev signings or maybe she was in staunch support of them. I’m not in her life so I have no inside information on that.

All I know is that like in regular business the decision is made from the top, you can argue in this case who the top is (FAQ or JR), all your underlings do are provide their opinion, but if JRs opinion differed, they would still just go with JRs plan.

 

[arttk]

What else to do, buying him out costs more for longer and it still a cap hit with nothing in return. The rumour was he would waive to go to Boston.
Did Vancouver even agree to take the NMC part of the contract?

He was Hughes in Arizona, not expected to be a stalwart defensive dman

Yeah but Boston won’t take him because he sucks. Buying him out might probably be best, at least you don’t have him on the roster sinking one paring down.

 

[arttk]

Some accounts would tell you human shit tastes good if it paints Rutherford in a positive light.

It’s wild.

It’s low effort stupid replies that lowers the quality of the board.

I am not in the business of saying JR is great, if they hire Tocchet then I’ll be piss and critize them heavily for it.

Like I said, what has Jr said that is humiliating. BB has done a bad job in several different ways and pointing that out is humiliating? There are ways to talk about things without it being personal and nothing he has said has been personal. Yet you guys all gobble that shit up and think oh yeah yeah that was really personal.

 

[4Twenty]

That some can’t see why trotting him out to face media as a “dead man walking” while hiring his replacement is being actively discussed daily shows a complex lack of understanding.


But again some are content to eat shit and tell us how good it tastes.

 

[Nucker101]

This is such a bad take. Here is the thing, Bruce deserves to be fired because frankly he has done a terrible job but at the same time, he earned his chance to coach this season based on what he did last season. So I don’t see anything wrong with them letting BB go on even if he is not his guy.
So with him failing so hard this season, sure you can argue from a merit perspective, he should be fired but from at the same time, he is still being paid to do the thing he was given a chance to.

Like can you imagine the horror of not doing your job right and not being paid to go way? Actually I can’t because that’s not how it works for any of us.

And regarding oh it’s disrespectful that they are talking to other coaches before firing him. Come on, look at the record. It’s not like he is killing it and they are looking to stab his back by finding another person despite him delivering. If he doesn’t expect management to look for other coaches with the results he is delivering then he’s in some weird fantasy.

If he is truly that miserable, he can f***ing quit. This is not a binding contract where he has no outs. It’s like why do we feel sorry for somebody else not getting paid to go away?

Now can we hold management to this same standard? Can Bruce go up to JR’s and Allvin’s offices and slap them both across the face for giving him this roster?

 

[arttk]

That some can’t see why trotting him out to face media as a “dead man walking” while hiring his replacement is being actively discussed daily shows a complex lack of understanding.


But again some are content to eat shit and tell us how good it tastes.

he’s the coach, coaches has media availability to talk about the game every single game. I don’t even think the Canucks can hold him back without getting fined by the league. But sure, let’s go with trotting him out because that goes with the narrative.

Honestly if you have an issue with my opinion I am open to debate on it. The fact that you seem to bucket me into well he must be a JR shill because he has a different opinion shows how shallow your thinking is. Yes people don’t just below to two extremes, it’s shocking to you but if you are capable of some original thought then that possibility might not be so shocking for you.

 

[mriswith]

If you go and read any of the replies in this thread that’ll tell you the leverage Boeser had.

You don’t think Columbus, Detroit, Philadelphia, etc would have given him a long-term contract if he walked to UFA? Those teams are desperate for younger scoring talent.

What if we didn’t resign Boeser, and he put up 30/30? This board would have been rife with “experts” talking about how we should have kept him and how bad we are at wasting assets. Hindsight is always 20/20 and this management group was dealt a dud by Benning with his QO.

Hindsight isn't 20/20 when we were posting months in advance what we wanted them to do, and they didn't, and now that it didn't pan out we're commenting on what we had wanted them to do at the time.

His QO didn't walk him to free agency, he was still going to be an RFA next summer. His QO was supposed to be the worst case scenario if he wouldn't sign a team friendly deal, which he didn't. If he had recovered and was pacing 30/30 that would have been great, we could have sold him with retention at the deadline for a good return, and if he bombed then we had more leverage this summer or sufficient information to be more comfortable with him walking. Win/win.

You can't let your fear of players walking push you into making unforced errors like the Boeser and Miller deals. When you look at what teams like Seattle and Vegas can do with players more or less deemed disposable, the logical conclusion is that you have to prioritize deals that make sense with the cap over fear of losing good players because they want too much term.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

But again some are content to eat shit and tell us how good it tastes.

Yeah, I learnt that during the Benning era.

 

[arttk]

Yeah, I learnt that during the Benning era.

The fact you can’t tell the difference says a lot!

 

[iFan]

If the Canucks bought out OEL this summer what would be the amount that would count against our cap?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

The fact you can’t tell the difference says a lot!

What do you want from me? They are both named Jim. That's basically indecipherable.

 

[arttk]

What do you want from me? They are both named Jim. That's basically indecipherable.

Also white old dudes, of course they are the same.

If the Canucks bought out OEL this summer what would be the amount that would count against our cap?

Close to 0 for the first year.

 

[Bubbles]

"No vision, no plan" - Trevor throwing some shade!

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

"No vision, no plan" - Trevor throwing some shade!

"Former Vancouver Canuck, former scapegoat".

It will never not piss me off that Aquilini basically brought in Linden to be a meat shield to criticism and once he thought for himself, he was thrown away like a children's play toy. We are literally being run by Sid from Toy Story.

 

[4Twenty]

he’s the coach, coaches has media availability to talk about the game every single game. I don’t even think the Canucks can hold him back without getting fined by the league. But sure, let’s go with trotting him out because that goes with the narrative.

Honestly if you have an issue with my opinion I am open to debate on it. The fact that you seem to bucket me into well he must be a JR shill because he has a different opinion shows how shallow your thinking is. Yes people don’t just below to two extremes, it’s shocking to you but if you are capable of some original thought then that possibility might not be so shocking for you.

There is nothing to debate. You won’t even acknowledge why people are being critical…..”he’s the coach that’s his job” shows this.

The whole league knows he’s getting replaced but he’s basically being publicly shamed here.

It’s bush league.