Management Discussion | Just Have a Plan

[theguardianII]

Gary can’t lose. Once a new commissioner is in place I bet Arizona closes shop.

NHL still owns the team anyway, just number of facemen out there. I mean if the NHL holds all the mortgage then they own the team.

Giving Bo the Nuge extension might make sense to some, but clearly Horvat took it as an insult. Asking somebody who is scoring at an accelerated rate to take a pay cut is generally not going to be well received. I wonder if there are any other comparables used with that contract, because off the top of my head, RNH is the only such contract signed recently.

Has anyone considered that Horvat has been a good soldier trying to do what was asked, be a defensive first player or trying to be but once he decided that points pay he went to offence.

Umm Boeser would 100% take the QO. I mean the option was for the management to not qualify him

His rights could be traded

I'm just adding in that even if he took the qualifier, he still wouldn't have been UFA afterwards since he had another year of RFA status

For the other scenarios, the upside is less and less and the risk is also less. You walk away you get nothing and you can use that cap on something else and the upside is maybe a 1st or multiple 2nd and that’s probably a better scenario than trading away his RFA rights because teams will ask us to take back a cap dump.

That was just speculation from Dhali, he even made sure to clarifying that he wasn’t reporting, just speculating.

Dahli is starting to become erratic and getting hard to watch. He really starts playing a fan position as juvenile and naive

It doesn’t make sense if you’re trading Horvat to a contending team, as they won’t have space to house an inefficient contract. However, if it’s a sign and trade to a Detroit/Columbus/etc, that is the worst case scenario, and shows the ownership is likely heavily involved. I would be livid if that’s the case.

Retention allows just about all the teams in the league to trade for him, the remaining cap hit is like 2.75 mil and with 50% retention who can't afford that?

What that tells me is that FAQ doesn’t want to pay the $5 million bonus to Myers on July 1, because at that point he probably becomes a tradable asset; and that $6 million cap hit is gone.

No the 6 mil cap hit remains and is super valuable to Arizona. A team with next to no tickets sales. It might even be worth Valimaki and some of those picks or Guenther.

Boeser is a done deal, but can be traded.

I hate to think but I don't think anyone is moving except MAYBE Horvat.

I think the PLAN is to have the new coach start and get the benefit of several teams tanking getting some wins from those teams.
Then they can do nothing and say "we need to see what the new guy can do"



What a sad state of affairs.

The new coach could be booed for his entire tenure here, this kind of stuff sticks for years.

It is possible that Yeo refused to do this to his mentor, they had a relationship way back in Minny.

Management is so disconnected from the fan base

There is a need for fans to express directly with management where they can't ignore what is being said

 

[arttk]

I think zero value is better than negative value. It is better to have no Boeser and $6.6m cap space now. Again, remember when JR comes in and one of the main thing he mention is creating cap flexibility. Well this deal is the opposite of that goal.

That’s with the assumption that he has negative value right now.
Like we all thought Hamonic had negative value and he went for a 3rd with zero retention.
We all thought Bear would have value and he came over with a 5th with retention.

Essentially none of us have a freaking clue what value players have. You can argue Boeser has no value and until we see what the actual return is, we won’t know.

 

[arttk]

NHL still owns the team anyway, just number of facemen out there. I mean if the NHL holds all the mortgage then they own the team.

Has anyone considered that Horvat has been a good soldier trying to do what was asked, be a defensive first player or trying to be but once he decided that points pay he went to offence.

His rights could be traded





Dahli is starting to become erratic and getting hard to watch. He really starts playing a fan position as juvenile and naive

Retention allows just about all the teams in the league to trade for him, the remaining cap hit is like 2.75 mil and with 50% retention who can't afford that?

No the 6 mil cap hit remains and is super valuable to Arizona. A team with next to no tickets sales. It might even be worth Valimaki and some of those picks or Guenther.

Boeser is a done deal, but can be traded.

I hate to think but I don't think anyone is moving except MAYBE Horvat.

I think the PLAN is to have the new coach start and get the benefit of several teams tanking getting some wins from those teams.
Then they can do nothing and say "we need to see what the new guy can do"



What a sad state of affairs.

The new coach could be booed for his entire tenure here, this kind of stuff sticks for years.

It is possible that Yeo refused to do this to his mentor, they had a relationship way back in Minny.

Management is so disconnected from the fan base

There is a need for fans to express directly with management where they can't ignore what is being said

Yes we could’ve trade his rights away but he has no value because of the QO as I have already stated and because of this QO, it’s likely we would be asked to take a cap dump back.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

You can absolutely argue the point on long term cap structure. There’s nothing I can do to defend the utter hell hole we have found ourselves in.

With JTM - why would he accept a 3-4 year term contract? He knew that if he made it to free agency, he would have got a 7 year deal. Sure she can absolutely outline the risks, but ultimately if she’s told to find a contract range for him knowing that he would only accept a 6-7 year deal, her hands are essentially tied. Again we can quibble about the player and how he should have been traded (which is the school of thought I subscribe to), but that has nothing to do with Emilie.

On Boeser - there isn’t a comparable that makes sense. Also, how does Boeser not have leverage? He quite literally had all the leverage. He either walks straight to UFA if he isn’t qualified and gets a 6-7 year deal at 6 million+ from someone, or he takes his 7.5 million dollar QO and then walks straight to UFA and executes the above plan. Again, I don’t think Brock is worth the money we’re paying him, that’s obvious; but if you’re told that this is a player that management/ownership want back on the team you do the best you can to make that happen.

Edit: Didn’t read through everyone else’s responses, but @arttk & @MarkMM summed it up perfectly as well.

So ultimately, she has no say? Her hands are tied so all she does is load up a contract template and fill in some blanks? Like I said before, maybe that really is all she was hired to do, in that case she is doing a good job. But the way they promoted her education/experience, I was expecting a Gilman-type capologist coming in.

Well based on the summer transactions, I don't really see any leverage Boeser had. Most teams are capped out with their own players to sign. He was coming off 2 bad seasons. He has an injury history. He plays a non-premium position. He is a slow and soft one-dimensional winger and we all see how valuable they were (even productive ones like Bjorkstrand returned very little). We aren't one Boeser away from being a contending, or even competitive, team. We have our own cap hell to deal with, especially after signing Mikheyev. We had more wingers than spots available, having to now demote Pod and Hog due to lack of playing time or opportunities. I definitely don't see any team giving him 6-7 years deal at $6m+, but GMs do dumb things so if somebody else wants to shoot themselves in the foot, let them? I think even at the time of signing, most people recognize the extension was a massive risk based on all the above, so I'm not really seeing where the leverage is coming from.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

That’s with the assumption that he has negative value right now.
Like we all thought Hamonic had negative value and he went for a 3rd with zero retention.
We all thought Bear would have value and he came over with a 5th with retention.

Essentially none of us have a freaking clue what value players have. You can argue Boeser has no value and until we see what the actual return is, we won’t know.

OEL will never be traded again, does that mean he has positive value? You can kind of make some assumptions in situations like these.

 

[Bobby9]

Very cruel and malicious treatment of Bruce from the organization.

Im a fan of the team, but I think financially I have to stop supporting the organization until it's sold to a new owner.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Very cruel and malicious treatment of Bruce from the organization.

Im a fan of the team, but I think financially I have to stop supporting the organization until it's sold to a new owner.

Agreed..Boudreau has earned respect after 45 years in the league

This treatment doesn’t go unnoticed by staff and players league wide.

 

[Spectrefire]

Is it too late to return Pittsburgh's garbage back to them?

 

[VanillaCoke]

Man do these guys absolutely suck at their job

 

[iFan]

Bruce wasn’t the right coach, he’s a players coach and you need to have a strong locker room with strong leadership and accountability but this locker room isn’t that. How he’s been treated is gross and it’s how this organization treats its fans as well.

 

[CherryToke]

Worst organization in pro sports

 

[theguardianII]

Yes we could’ve trade his rights away but he has no value because of the QO as I have already stated and because of this QO, it’s likely we would be asked to take a cap dump back.

And now?

It doesn't matter he is irrelevant now except his elephant contract and the cost to the team to move him.

 

[theguardianII]

Bruce wasn’t the right coach, he’s a players coach and you need to have a strong locker room with strong leadership and accountability but this locker room isn’t that. How he’s been treated is gross and it’s how this organization treats its fans as well.

The plain fact is this is a group of coach killers, Green, Boudreau and The Bookie?

Is the destruction of this team's reputation a step in managing up?

 

[PG Canuck]

What Rutherford is doing to Boudreau is one of the more despicable things this franchise has done in the last 10 years.

You have your head coach getting emotional to the media because he has no idea what is going on and doesn’t know when his last day will be.

Just on a human level, it’s pretty disgusting. Just when you think the dark days were behind us, they are actually getting worse and more disgusting. It’s sad because the bar was so, so low for this new regime.

f*** Rutherford.

 

[arttk]

OEL will never be traded again, does that mean he has positive value? You can kind of make some assumptions in situations like these.

they are completelty different scenario.
OEL at this stage is playing close a replacement level player and is paid as an elite 1st paring guy.
Boeser is a 1 dimensional winger that will put up around 60ish +- 5 while being paid like a 65 point guy.

So if you compare the two, OEL has a 7.7 cap and is contributing closer to a 1M player. So that’s 6+M in waste and on top of that, he drags down 1 of 3 parings.

Brock has a 6.6M cap and is contributing around 5.5M. That’s 1Mish in waste. He doesn’t really drag down a line but he doesn’t really elevate it.

So they are like completely different. Brock if you retain 1-1.5M should get you a good return because he would be able to exceed his cap hit. OEL is f***ing hopeless because if you take half back he is still overpaid by like 3M and he will drag down one defense paring which has much more impact than a winger on a line.

 

[theguardianII]

What is it that you think she hasn’t done a good job with?

You have to give her some slack
Boeser was her FIRST and he had the BIGGEST contract so far.

 

[TruGr1t]

What Rutherford is doing to Boudreau is one of the more despicable things this franchise has done in the last 10 years.

You have your head coach getting emotional to the media because he has no idea what is going on and doesn’t know when his last day will be.

Just on a human level, it’s pretty disgusting. Just when you think the dark days were behind us, they are actually getting worse and more disgusting. It’s sad because the bar was so, so low for this new regime.

f*** Rutherford.

Agreed. This sentiment is pretty much also universal outside of massive homers. It's a huge black mark on the organization, especially outside the market. I'm sure most true hockey people know who's actually behind most of this, though. It's carried over across a pretty diverse set of different management teams.

Being this consistently idiotic is pretty impressive.

 

[Bobby Digital]

Circus organization headed by a clown. Nothing to be surprised about.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

they are completelty different scenario.
OEL at this stage is playing close a replacement level player and is paid as an elite 1st paring guy.
Boeser is a 1 dimensional winger that will put up around 60ish +- 5 while being paid like a 65 point guy.

So if you compare the two, OEL has a 7.7 cap and is contributing closer to a 1M player. So that’s 6+M in waste and on top of that, he drags down 1 of 3 parings.

Brock has a 6.6M cap and is contributing around 5.5M. That’s 1Mish in waste. He doesn’t really drag down a line but he doesn’t really elevate it.

So they are like completely different. Brock if you retain 1-1.5M should get you a good return because he would be able to exceed his cap hit. OEL is f***ing hopeless because if you take half back he is still overpaid by like 3M and he will drag down one defense paring which has much more impact than a winger on a line.

OEL was an extreme example I used to make a point. I doubt Boeser is a $5.5m player currently, he is a very flawed hockey player who is getting boosted by random secondary assists and, IMO undeserving, PP1 usage. I supposed if you retained him down to sub $4m he might return something minor, but that's the definition of negative value contract, no?

Anyways, I really hate to rag on Brock because he's a good person. This conversation wasn't about him to begin with anyways, so I guess let's just agree to disagree.

 

[theguardianII]

OEL will never be traded again, does that mean he has positive value? You can kind of make some assumptions in situations like these.

OEL can be traded with some workarounds.

Straight up 50% retention lowers his cap hit to below 3.75 mil. and he can play at what he did to earn that money.

First off I think it was a horrible trade but. Fans have to realize he is playing in a totally different way than that which earned him this contract so he is probably better with another team where he will get huge PP minutes and not be on the PK like he used to be.

IF that was not enough there could be a third team involved for a small cost where the other team takes on a little more retention. I think he can have 3 retentions. It might not cost much to get another 1 million in retention.

Circus organization headed by a clown. Nothing to be surprised about.

Laughing stock of the league before now just a very sad joke. This is going to go viral quickly.
Agents of players will be on hold trying to phone management

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

It’s more than entirely possible, it’s more like that is the most likely outcome so it’s more like ok, if that is the outcome, was the end result, the lowering of his cap #, worth it. Or how much lower does it need to be to make burning that bridge and potentially nuking the room worth it.

If doing what is best for the team upsets the room I think that place may be nuked already.

 

[arttk]

What Rutherford is doing to Boudreau is one of the more despicable things this franchise has done in the last 10 years.

You have your head coach getting emotional to the media because he has no idea what is going on and doesn’t know when his last day will be.

Just on a human level, it’s pretty disgusting. Just when you think the dark days were behind us, they are actually getting worse and more disgusting. It’s sad because the bar was so, so low for this new regime.

f*** Rutherford.

This is such a bad take. Here is the thing, Bruce deserves to be fired because frankly he has done a terrible job but at the same time, he earned his chance to coach this season based on what he did last season. So I don’t see anything wrong with them letting BB go on even if he is not his guy.
So with him failing so hard this season, sure you can argue from a merit perspective, he should be fired but from at the same time, he is still being paid to do the thing he was given a chance to.

Like can you imagine the horror of not doing your job right and not being paid to go way? Actually I can’t because that’s not how it works for any of us.

And regarding oh it’s disrespectful that they are talking to other coaches before firing him. Come on, look at the record. It’s not like he is killing it and they are looking to stab his back by finding another person despite him delivering. If he doesn’t expect management to look for other coaches with the results he is delivering then he’s in some weird fantasy.

If he is truly that miserable, he can f***ing quit. This is not a binding contract where he has no outs. It’s like why do we feel sorry for somebody else not getting paid to go away?

 

[arttk]

OEL can be traded with some workarounds.

Straight up 50% retention lowers his cap hit to below 3.75 mil. and he can play at what he did to earn that money.

First off I think it was a horrible trade but. Fans have to realize he is playing in a totally different way than that which earned him this contract so he is probably better with another team where he will get huge PP minutes and not be on the PK like he used to be.

IF that was not enough there could be a third team involved for a small cost where the other team takes on a little more retention. I think he can have 3 retentions. It might not cost much to get another 1 million in retention.


Laughing stock of the league before now just a very sad joke. This is going to go viral quickly.
Agents of players will be on hold trying to phone management

A) I think its unrealistic to retain that much salary over such a long period of time. The only time that has happened is with Burns and Sj only retained 2.7M. I don’t understand why it’s even worth it to propose ideas that are completely unrealistic. Yeah it’s not your money but at the same time it’s not your money.
B) he is not even a 3.75M player right now. His defense is so bad that even if he puts up pp points, he won’t be worth that. LD is not that in demand compared to RHD

C) he has a nmc

 

[PG Canuck]

 

[sandwichbird2023]

This is such a bad take. Here is the thing, Bruce deserves to be fired because frankly he has done a terrible job but at the same time, he earned his chance to coach this season based on what he did last season. So I don’t see anything wrong with them letting BB go on even if he is not his guy.
So with him failing so hard this season, sure you can argue from a merit perspective, he should be fired but from at the same time, he is still being paid to do the thing he was given a chance to.

Like can you imagine the horror of not doing your job right and not being paid to go way? Actually I can’t because that’s not how it works for any of us.

And regarding oh it’s disrespectful that they are talking to other coaches before firing him. Come on, look at the record. It’s not like he is killing it and they are looking to stab his back by finding another person despite him delivering. If he doesn’t expect management to look for other coaches with the results he is delivering then he’s in some weird fantasy.

If he is truly that miserable, he can f***ing quit. This is not a binding contract where he has no outs. It’s like why do we feel sorry for somebody else not getting paid to go away?

Its all fine if its dealt with privately behind the scene. How JR keep going on record trashing his coach in the media, saying this like "I didn't know he has a 2nd year on his contract", that's not necessary nor professional. If he is fired for not performing well, nobody will question it. Its going public with everything, from the comments and the coaching search, while employing him, that is the issue we have. Heck, if they fired him and promote an assistant to an interm coach while interviewing Tocchet, I think we are all ok with that too.

Just because somebody is getting paid doesn't mean you can treat them like garbage. Telling a coach "if you don't like it you can quit" is a pretty bad take too. What if a player does that? He would never play in the league again, because professionals aren't/shouldn't be quitters. How can BB command a room in the future on a different team, if the players all knows that its ok to quit if things aren't going your way?