Management Discussion | Just Have a Plan

[racerjoe]

I think people looking to compare our goaltending to other teams getting bad goaltending that are doing well need to ask one thing; were those teams built to win of vezina calibur goaltending?

The debate isn't and wasn't does our defence suck. We all know it does and new it does. We didn't think the goaltending we have been getting and relied on like last season was going to be this bad. Other teams were built with goaltending not as strong but better defence.

This is why some are blaming goaltending. It isn't to say our defence doesn't suck. We are well aware it does. We just also expected it to suck.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

People who didn't play don't understand how bad goaltending affects a team. It's not a bunch of automatons who play the same way and the results are different. When you don't trust that you will get saves, you start trying to prevent any kind of shots at all, and putting increased pressure on yourself to score, which makes you useless because you're trying to do too much.

I agree bad goaltending has an effect, I just see very little difference in terms of how we are playing this year to how we played last year. The defense is still brutal, we are still making weird decisions with puck management in the O-zone. Our breakout is a little more conservative but it still sucks either way.

The biggest difference I'm seeing first and foremost is we aren't getting saves.

 

[iFan]

I think people looking to compare our goaltending to other teams getting bad goaltending that are doing well need to ask one thing; were those teams built to win of vezina calibur goaltending?

The debate isn't and wasn't does our defence suck. We all know it does and new it does. We didn't think the goaltending we have been getting and relied on like last season was going to be this bad. Other teams were built with goaltending not as strong but better defence.

This is why some are blaming goaltending. It isn't to say our defence doesn't suck. We are well aware it does. We just also expected it to suck.

And that's the problem... a team shouldn't rely on one player to make or break your season, that's not the right way to build a team that can hopefully win a cup one day. Players get injured or have off years and when your team so heavily relies on your goalie covering up all the massive issues around the team makeup and play that's a massive red flag that big changes need to happen. No team that wants to win a cup or to be a consistent playoff team should be relying on one player like this.

 

[credulous]

the devils are getting full time jack hughes and added marino, haula, smith and palat. it's not just their goaltending that improved

seattle added the rookie of the year leader, bjorkstrand, burakovsky, sprong and schultz (and tolvanen). it's not just their goaltending that improved

vancouver, meanwhile, swapped out a bunch of bottom of the lineup parts for new bottom of the lineup parts. their goaltending did collapse but they were still probably going to finish in the 90-100 point range even with great goaltending. who is excited about finishing 5th/6th in the conference at best?

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

On goaltending. LA are legitimately bottom 4 in Team Save Percentage and also like 8th in team Shooting percentage. Blaming goaltending is weak.

I mean i don't mind blaming some of it on goaltending but the defense is significantly worse than most of last year.

The PK is also somehow even worse.

If that's true then that's a failure of statistics.

There's no doubt that are problems our a lot deeper than just goaltending and our D is entirely too permissive.

But we have had Demko play terribly and then get hurt, and then have been employing two goaltenders who weren't even employable in this league until last year.

It's really interesting to see @MS do a big about face in terms of what he wants to do, because he's become more conservative with regards to rebuilding than I am. But he's not wrong that there's a loooot going wrong here, but goaltending and coaching are making this look a lot worse than it is, and we're all pretty emotional about it.

The Devils last year had an appalling save percentage and used like 8 goalies and it netted them the 2nd overall pick. This year, Vanecek is giving them .914 and they are a toppish team in the league.

People who didn't play don't understand how bad goaltending affects a team. It's not a bunch of automatons who play the same way and the results are different. When you don't trust that you will get saves, you start trying to prevent any kind of shots at all, and putting increased pressure on yourself to score, which makes you useless because you're trying to do too much.

The way management kneecapped Bruce means there's not much systems buy-in either.

I think we need to move on from Bo and get what we can for him, bottom out this year, and retool. So basically a hard rebuild for the next 8 months, and then start building in earnest again. MS is correct that no team is going to dump Petey and Hughes and Demko so they can be pathetic for 8 years, it just doesn't make sense.

My problem with all of this is that yes, you can miss the playoffs on bad goaltending, sure.

This is the Defense of the Vancouver Canucks:

Quinn Hughes / Luke Schenn
OEL / Myers
Stillman / Bear
Burroughs / Dermott / Poolman

On the farm:
Wolanin / Juulsen
Brisebois/ Woo
Kalynuk / Keeper
Rathbone/ Kannok-Leipert / Schiemann

In the system: EP2

This is the Defense of the New Jersey Devils:

Siegenthaler / Hamilton
Graves / Severson
Smith / Marino
Bahl

On their farm:
Okhotyuk / Walsh
Wotherspoon / Nemec
Groleau / Russo
Geertsen

In the system: Mukhamadullin, Hughes, Casey

That is so wildly different. The Devils have a whole top 6 with a whole slew of young prospects coming.

Literally:
Walsh - 23 years old
Bahl - 22 years old
Nemec - 18 years old
Hughes - 19 years old
Casey - 19 years old
Mukhamadullin - 21 year old
Okhotyuk - 22 years old
Groleau - 21 years old

 

[Nucker101]

I think people looking to compare our goaltending to other teams getting bad goaltending that are doing well need to ask one thing; were those teams built to win of vezina calibur goaltending?

The debate isn't and wasn't does our defence suck. We all know it does and new it does. We didn't think the goaltending we have been getting and relied on like last season was going to be this bad. Other teams were built with goaltending not as strong but better defence.

This is why some are blaming goaltending. It isn't to say our defence doesn't suck. We are well aware it does. We just also expected it to suck.

Exactly. This team needs great goaltending just to sniff the playoffs. Meanwhile there’s multiple teams way ahead of the Canucks getting mediocre goaltending

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Exactly. This team needs great goaltending just to sniff the playoffs. Meanwhile there’s multiple teams way ahead of the Canucks getting mediocre goaltending

I mean I don't really get it. If I'm cheering for the Sabres in the 90s and Hasek goes down, do I complain that Roloson isn't Hasek or do I say "Hey, this guy is hiding some huge holes in our game."

 

[Nucker101]

I mean I don't really get it. If I'm cheering for the Sabres in the 90s and Hasek goes down, do I complain that Roloson isn't Hasek or do I say "Hey, this guy is hiding some huge holes in our game."

If we were contenders with Markstrom/Demko as goalie then no, but we never were. Demko up until this year has been making a bad team look mediocre.

 

[Snatcher Demko]

I mean i don't mind blaming some of it on goaltending but the defense is significantly worse than most of last year.

The PK is also somehow even worse.


My problem with all of this is that yes, you can miss the playoffs on bad goaltending, sure.

This is the Defense of the Vancouver Canucks:

Quinn Hughes / Luke Schenn
OEL / Myers
Stillman / Bear
Burroughs / Dermott / Poolman

On the farm:
Wolanin / Juulsen
Brisebois/ Woo
Kalynuk / Keeper
Rathbone/ Kannok-Leipert / Schiemann

In the system: EP2

This is the Defense of the New Jersey Devils:

Siegenthaler / Hamilton
Graves / Severson
Smith / Marino
Bahl

On their farm:
Okhotyuk / Walsh
Wotherspoon / Nemec
Groleau / Russo
Geertsen

In the system: Mukhamadullin, Hughes, Casey

That is so wildly different. The Devils have a whole top 6 with a whole slew of young prospects coming.

Literally:
Walsh - 23 years old
Bahl - 22 years old
Nemec - 18 years old
Hughes - 19 years old
Casey - 19 years old
Mukhamadullin - 21 year old
Okhotyuk - 22 years old
Groleau - 21 years old

There is a nice list of defensemen we can target.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I mean i don't mind blaming some of it on goaltending but the defense is significantly worse than most of last year.

The PK is also somehow even worse.


My problem with all of this is that yes, you can miss the playoffs on bad goaltending, sure.

This is the Defense of the Vancouver Canucks:

Quinn Hughes / Luke Schenn
OEL / Myers
Stillman / Bear
Burroughs / Dermott / Poolman

On the farm:
Wolanin / Juulsen
Brisebois/ Woo
Kalynuk / Keeper
Rathbone/ Kannok-Leipert / Schiemann

In the system: EP2

This is the Defense of the New Jersey Devils:

Siegenthaler / Hamilton
Graves / Severson
Smith / Marino
Bahl

On their farm:
Okhotyuk / Walsh
Wotherspoon / Nemec
Groleau / Russo
Geertsen

In the system: Mukhamadullin, Hughes, Casey

That is so wildly different. The Devils have a whole top 6 with a whole slew of young prospects coming.

Literally:
Walsh - 23 years old
Bahl - 22 years old
Nemec - 18 years old
Hughes - 19 years old
Casey - 19 years old
Mukhamadullin - 21 year old
Okhotyuk - 22 years old
Groleau - 21 years old

Please don't mistake what I said as me handwaving away all of our problems as being goaltending related. We are in a far worse place than they are. I'm just saying that it's exponentially worse because of some pretty easily fixable factors, and so it's important not to overreact out of emotion (for management, we are well within our rights to throw conniptions as fans).

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

If we were contenders with Markstrom/Demko as goalie then no, but we never were. Demko up until this year has been making a bad team look mediocre.

And he's (Demko) really the least of our concerns right now - but he is a concern.

 

[Tables of Stats]

My fear is that this season is excused due to Demko's start (off-season injury, disrupted training, etc.) and him getting injured before he could play himself back into his groove. It sounds almost reasonable enough to trick casual fans, just like how Benning trotted out injuries neatly every season he was in charge.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

who is excited about finishing 5th/6th in the conference at best?

Did somebody sayyyyyy…sixth?

 

[arttk]

I mean, obviously. But the effect was exactly the same - lots of terrible finishes, entire roster turned over, lots of high draft picks, new young core going forward.

I think the part we didn’t get out of that was a decked out prospects pool. Looking back, we only really have Petey, Hughes, Hog, Pod and Boeser from the tank. Everything else was like acquired through FA or stupid ass trades.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Please don't mistake what I said as me handwaving away all of our problems as being goaltending related. We are in a far worse place than they are. I'm just saying that it's exponentially worse because of some pretty easily fixable factors, and so it's important not to overreact out of emotion (for management, we are well within our rights to throw conniptions as fans).

What is the an easily fixable factor?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I think the part we didn’t get out of that was a decked out prospects pool. Looking back, we only really have Petey, Hughes, Hog, Pod and Boeser from the tank. Everything else was like acquired through FA or stupid ass trades.

IIRC, some posters never really liked our pool. No idea if he fell into that category. I really liked our 2017 draft, probably the only one I really liked looking back at it. Shows you what I know - I really thought Palmu and DiPietro were good gambles. Thought Gadjovich was a nice low-risk guy. The one I didn't get was Lind. I had Anderson-Dolan at that pick for us.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

90% of the value of a tank is getting top-10 draft picks. We had 6 of those.

Whether it was intended or not, it was a tank and the result was a total rebuild and a totally new core.

We have like half a core.

 

[Peen]

What is the an easily fixable factor?

trade myers buyout oel ltir poolman and find a taker for one of boeser or garland

have a healthy starting goaltender

replacing that salary allocation with effective players is their easiest raise the floor pathway but doesn't really move the needle to winning a cup because that path adds no futures and increases cap burden from OEL in a few years

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Team Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

32nd in All Situations GSAE (approximately -27.5).

Maybe you were looking at 5v5 numbers?

Non public data has canucks as the 3rd worst defensive team in the league, 2nd worst against the rush.

 

[credulous]

trade myers buyout oel ltir poolman and find a taker for one of boeser or garland

have a healthy starting goaltender

replacing that salary allocation with effective players is their easiest raise the floor pathway but doesn't really move the needle to winning a cup because that path adds no futures and increases cap burden from OEL in a few years

the most likely path for this team IF they keep horvat and kuzmenko is to do this and then turn around and sign like gavrikov or severson to a long term contract with the money they free up. they'll still be cap strapped so any other improvement will have to come from dumpster diving. i don't see how that's really any better than this year or last

 

[TruGr1t]

I mean, obviously. But the effect was exactly the same - lots of terrible finishes, entire roster turned over, lots of high draft picks, new young core going forward.

Well, yes. They screwed it up so badly we need to do it again.

 

[arttk]

IIRC, some posters never really liked our pool. No idea if he fell into that category. I really liked our 2017 draft, probably the only one I really liked looking back at it. Shows you what I know - I really thought Palmu and DiPietro were good gambles. Thought Gadjovich was a nice low-risk guy. The one I didn't get was Lind. I had Anderson-Dolan at that pick for us.

Man just bringing that back up makes me sad.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

trade myers buyout oel ltir poolman and find a taker for one of boeser or garland

have a healthy starting goaltender

replacing that salary allocation with effective players is their easiest raise the floor pathway but doesn't really move the needle to winning a cup because that path adds no futures and increases cap burden from OEL in a few years

Myers will be tradable ones his salary is paid in the summer and that will be a good day when he is gone.

Buyout of OEL probably won't happen for another year.

Goalie won't help too much if the defense is a gong show (see the beginning of the year).

See the UFA d-list... there's really not much other there other than bottom pairing filler and unlike some teams the Canucks have basically no D prospects of any note.

 

[TruGr1t]

I love how this is also a big national news story. Chef’s kiss.

 

[Peen]

Myers will be tradable ones his salary is paid in the summer and that will be a good day when he is gone.

Buyout of OEL probably won't happen for another year.

Goalie won't help too much if the defense is a gong show (see the beginning of the year).

See the UFA d-list... there's really not much other there other than bottom pairing filler and unlike some teams the Canucks have basically no D prospects of any note.

I also do hope they wait on the OEL buyout for at least one more year. I am totally with you on that. See if they can drive him into retirement or LTIR if they just wait on it because those middle years have a high penalty. Just sacrifice one year and the rest of this year and reevaluate.

I totally agree with the bolded. It's the same with C as well. Would have been great if we had the cap space to sign Phil Danault when he was a UFA, because he would have been perfect.