LW Patrik Laine - Tappara, Liiga (2016 Draft) V

[Ippenator]

Armia is far from a midget, he's 6'3 205. Atleast know your own players, when you start hyping another one up.

I'm quite sure he meant exactly Granlund and Teräväinen, but just made a bit sloppy sentence in general. I'm sure no Finnish hockey fan could think that Armia is a midget.

But anyway it is really useless and very funny to compare Granlund and Teräväinen to Laine as prospects. Laine is clearly at least two tiers higher prospect when comparing all the aspects of their game when each of them were 18 years old. The points and goals in playoffs and WJC could already be making the difference, but no, I still see it more as how Laine is as a complete prospect. He has so many exceptional areas in his game. And the size and strength that he has at only 18 years old is just something not seen practically after Lemieux, Lindros or Sundin. I mean such a big and powerful player, with some exceptional skills in his repertoire. He has an excellent shot in all the shooting types, silky smooth hands, excellent passing skills, great top speed for his size, he is already surprisingly good with his backchecking and he can do absolutely shattering hits, when he chooses to do it. He does need some more acceleration, but has already improved even that with great steps during this year. And he does need positional improvement in his defensive play. Also he could use still some improvement with his stamina, but he has also been clearly improving with this also during this season. He has so great tools altogether, but the greatest of them all is his his huge desire to win and be the absolute best in what he does. That can drive him to improve even more than many might expect during the next few years. I see that practically only serious injuries can threaten him having an absolutely amazing NHL career.

Yes, I do compare Laine to these players as a prospect. Not to the complete players and legends that they became, but to how they were as players when they were also 18 years old. Each of them became an exceptional player, but Lemieux's development was sky high and steady for a really long time, and he became the best player there has ever been after Gretzky. Lindros and Sundin did not of course achieve the absolute magical class that Lemieux did, but they sure are still some of the best players there has ever been.

For sure I don't claim that Laine will become as good definitely as Lemieux was, because that happening would be probably as possible as me winning 190 million euro's from the Eurojackpot. Theoretically possible, but so many factors could and most likely will go wrong that almost for sure he will not become that class of a player. But to reach Lindros (before his serious concussion problems) or Sundin as a player, is probably possible, although there are also so many things that can go wrong, that most probably he might not reach the status of those two either. But on the other hand, as he is definitely at the same level of all those three when they were about 18 years old, I would say that it is also not wise to claim that for sure he will never reach the class of Lindros or Sundin.

And I will not either say that there is no chance for him to even become as great and legendary player as Lemieux was. Because the day I would say that, I would quit playing Eurojackpot...

 

[sooni]

Armia is far from a midget, he's 6'3 205. Atleast know your own players, when you start hyping another one up.

agree and Armia 2010-11 Ässät Liiga 48games 18goals 11assists 29 points.

Laine 46 games 17 Goals 16 assists and 33points.

still both players= same age. Well yeah Laine had better team with him in juniors (U20) and won the cup.

He is having tremendous playoffs now. That is true Please there is so much bad things where we could compare him and we can see only good things. Just wait and hope that he is finding

Look Armia now and tell me one reason why it is no possible that it is not going to happen to Laine... Lets hope that he will find Light Force not that dark one.

 

[Hagged]

They're all very close together.. AHL, SEL, FEL, NLA aren't that different. Here's how it goes.

NHL
--- Huge Gap
KHL
--- Some Gap
AHL
--- Small Gap
SEL
--- Small Gap
FEL
--- Small Gap
NLA
--- Small Gap
Czech ELH
--- Small Gap
DEL
---
Rest

I don't understand the laughing emoticon when only difference on your lists where the position of AHL. Position which some of AHL to FEL transfers have taken after their transition.

 

[93LEAFS]

Can I ask how much does linemates/icetime average/pp time matter in these sites you use, and how do they take account development during the season?


Good article to tell more about their use during the season.
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2...-nhl-entry-draft-auston-matthews-leafs-oilers

Patrik Laine's case for first overall,

"In my own analysis of the European leagues, Finland came out on top of Switzerland by a wide margin."

"Matthews looks like a monster here, and he is. One huge factor is that he was on the top line the whole season with Roger Nilsson (12-40—52), who placed fifth in scoring in the NLA, and Ryan Keller who added 30 points. Matthews was also on the first power play unit at every opportunity.
Still, the numbers the 18-year-old put up in a good European league is very impressive indeed. Matthews was the top performer in the playoffs for an under-achieving Zurich team, but one would have expected him, and the team, to do better in the post-season. Matthews placed fifth in goal-scoring in the regular season, but was held scoreless in the playoffs."

"While not as impressive as Matthews' numbers at the first glance, Laine has played on mostly on Tappara's third line (according to my Finnish friends) with some time on the second trio. His most common linemates were Jukka Peltola, with 39 points, and Pekka Saravo, with 10. This puts his feat in a different perspective.

While dominating the playoffs (he leads all players in goals with eight), he has still been on the second line. Placing 18th in goal-scoring after the regular season, Laine now leads the playoffs with goals to spare."

Just today we saw Laine on the 1st line and we all know what happened.

He played well, but the bolded is why his article isn't worth taking too seriously. Its not even a first hand account. I have no problem with people thinking Laine is better, I have a problem with people saying its not even close. An argument can be made for Laine, but I still would prefer Matthews, but I wouldn't be outraged if my team took Laine over Matthews. And his analysis doesn't amount much past looking at numbers, he doesn't refute Vollman's numbers with any sort of analysis. And he admits in his piece he hasn't watch Laine.

Edit: Now if TOI was actually tracked in both leagues may provide further insight.

 

[JA]

Can I ask how much does linemates/icetime average/pp time matter in these sites you use, and how do they take account development during the season?


Good article to tell more about their use during the season.
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2...-nhl-entry-draft-auston-matthews-leafs-oilers

Patrik Laine's case for first overall,

"In my own analysis of the European leagues, Finland came out on top of Switzerland by a wide margin."

"Matthews looks like a monster here, and he is. One huge factor is that he was on the top line the whole season with Roger Nilsson (12-40—52), who placed fifth in scoring in the NLA, and Ryan Keller who added 30 points. Matthews was also on the first power play unit at every opportunity.
Still, the numbers the 18-year-old put up in a good European league is very impressive indeed. Matthews was the top performer in the playoffs for an under-achieving Zurich team, but one would have expected him, and the team, to do better in the post-season. Matthews placed fifth in goal-scoring in the regular season, but was held scoreless in the playoffs."

"While not as impressive as Matthews' numbers at the first glance, Laine has played on mostly on Tappara's third line (according to my Finnish friends) with some time on the second trio. His most common linemates were Jukka Peltola, with 39 points, and Pekka Saravo, with 10. This puts his feat in a different perspective.

While dominating the playoffs (he leads all players in goals with eight), he has still been on the second line. Placing 18th in goal-scoring after the regular season, Laine now leads the playoffs with goals to spare."

Just today we saw Laine on the 1st line and we all know what happened.

Well, Laine actually played a significant part of the season, post-World Junior Championship, with Arttu Ilomäki and Jukka Peltola on the second line. Pekka Saravo is a defenseman.

Ilomäki is not a good player. Tappara seriously lacks depth.


In late February, the team swapped out Ilomäki for Jan-Mikael Järvinen, and then for the entirety of the playoffs it's been Laine, Järvinen, and Peltola on a line together.



Laine was finally placed on the top line today. Ilomäki is now a fourth line winger! Järvinen has been just as useless.

Tappara has been posting game-day lineups from its official Twitter since January 7, 2016.

 

[BB88]

He played well, but the bolded is why his article isn't worth taking too seriously. Its not even a first hand account. I have no problem with people thinking Laine is better, I have a problem with people saying its not even close. An argument can be made for Laine, but I still would prefer Matthews, but I wouldn't be outraged if my team took Laine over Matthews. And his analysis doesn't amount much past looking at numbers, he doesn't refute Vollman's numbers with any sort of analysis. And he admits in his piece he hasn't watch Laine.

So its just raw point totals from elite prospect page and that tells what to expect next year?
I don't find that very trust worthy.

Well, Laine actually played a significant part of the season with Arttu Ilomäki and Jukka Peltola on the second line. Pekka Saravo is a defenseman.

In late February, the team swapped out Ilomäki for Jan-Mikael Järvinen, and then for the entirety of the playoffs it was Laine, Järvinen, and Peltola on a line together.


Tappara has been posting game-day lineups from its official Twitter since January 7, 2016.

I know Saravo is defenseman, just thought when I saw it that he had looked at the totals and those 2 were his most common linemates or simply put the wrong name.

On the 1st half if I remember right I watched his game averages and he averaged 3rd line minutes and after WJC his icetime started to go up and ended up averaging 2nd line minutes, 17.16min per game.

If he was playing 18+ mins throughout the season with the best linemates and 1st pp time I bet the numbers would look a bit different.

Edit, so my point with that post was to show the different use between Matthews and Laine throughout the season, Laine had to earn his minutes throughout the season and we should look beyond the raw numbers when putting expectations for next years NHL numbers for these 2, there is so much more to it than elite prospect page.

 

[thomast]

One of the biggest assets in this player is his will to win. He hates losing more than everything. Today he carried his team on his young shoulders to tie the Liiga Finals. He is a big time winner and steps up when teams need him most. 3 goals away from tying record for most goals in FEL playoffs history and he has just turned 18 year old. Most of the people outside of Finland doesen't even realize how special that is.

 

[sooni]

One of the biggest assets in this player is his will to win. He hates losing more than everything. Today he carried his team on his young shoulders to tie the Liiga Finals. He is a big time winner and steps up when teams need him most. 3 goals away from tying record for most goals in FEL playoffs history and he has just turned 18 year old. Most of the people outside of Finland doesen't even realize how special that is.

Respect. You are right.

 

[JA]

So its just raw point totals from elite prospect page and that tells what to expect next year?
I don't find that very trust worthy.



I know Saravo is defenseman, just thought when I saw it that he had looked at the totals and those 2 were his most common linemates or simply put the wrong name.

On the 1st half if I remember right I watched his game averages and he averaged 3rd line minutes and after WJC his icetime started to go up and his average for whole season was 2nd line minutes(17.16).

If he was playing 18+ mins throughout the season with the best linemates and 1st pp time I bet the numbers would look a bit different.

There's no question that the World Junior Championship would have propped him up to the second line; as this is his rookie season with Tappara, he probably started the season in a rather minor role. He did not have a very noteworthy season with LeKi last year.

According to Jatkoaika, he logged a lot of time with Veli-Matti Savinainen and Jere Karjalainen earlier this season. He also logged some ice time with Stephen Dixon. Those are Tappara's bottom-six players. By the publication date, though -- January 11, 2016 -- Laine had played more time with Ilomäki, Järvinen, and Peltola.

http://www.jatkoaika.com/Artikkeli/statistical-analysis-from-the-finnish-league-jesse-puljuj%C3%A4rvi-and-patrik-laine/174753

 

[93LEAFS]

So its just raw point totals from elite prospect page and that tells what to expect next year?
I don't find that very trust worthy.

There is obviously more to it, I was just using that to present a baseline. I've said multiple times I expect Laine to outperform his predictions using NHLe, but I also expect Matthew's to also. The guy may have valid points, but his second hand arguing and making no real effort to develop another system just makes it useless. He just says through his eye test the Finnish league is better, and repeated the Champions Hockey League claim. He didn't give any example of players he thought made it different, he also didn't show how his same assumptions about Liiga players going between leagues didn't also affect NLA players. Analytics in hockey is far from perfect, but I do think it shows some posters here are drastically underrating the NLA in an attempt to bash Matthews and make Laine seem like the better player. You are actually balanced, so I respect your opinions, but certain posters have decided to go to the extreme. Choosing to completely disregard Armia (I don't think Laine will end up like him, but his numbers are relevent for analysis) or call Laine generational.

This writer, may have some valid points but he barely expands on his premise to prove his point, There is reason practically every scouting agency, and draft source outside of McKeen's has Matthews as the number 1 pick in the draft, and I'll trust them over an SB nation blogger. While none of those guys are perfect, and consensus has been wrong before at the top of the draft, I think many of those guys would account for ice time, minutes and line mates, Vollman's numbers just supports the view that Matthews is the better or at least more NHL ready prospect.

 

[kunekune]

Edit: Now if TOI was actually tracked in both leagues may provide further insight.

I don't know about NLA but it is in FEL.

Laine regular season 17:16 TOI
Laine Playoffs 18:44 TOI

Given the fact NLA only play 3 lines, Matthews most likely was over 20:00 TOI

 

[93LEAFS]

I don't know about NLA but it is in FEL.

Laine regular season 17:16 TOI
Laine Playoffs 18:44 TOI

Thanks, those numbers completely refute he was used primarily as a 3rd liner by that Habs blogger, those are what guys moving between the first and 2nd lines usually get, at least in the NHL.

 

[kunekune]

Thanks, those numbers completely refute he was used primarily as a 3rd liner by that Habs blogger, those are what guys moving between the first and 2nd lines usually get, at least in the NHL.

Laine started the season in 3rd line. Played there maybe 10-15 games and was moved to 2nd line. Played the whole regular season there except 4 last games in 1st line where he scored 0+0. Lines were moved back to original at the start of the playoffs and Laine was moved back to 2nd, mostly because Tappara lacks scoring depth. Today was the first game in playoffs where Laine was in the 1st. He started the season in 2nd pp but was moved pretty quickly to 1st pp.

 

[sooni]

Th, Vollman's numbers just supports the view that Matthews is the better or at least more NHL ready prospect.

Actually i really hope one thing. That Edmonton is having that second pick

 

[BB88]

There is obviously more to it, I was just using that to present a baseline. I've said multiple times I expect Laine to outperform his predictions using NHLe, but I also expect Matthew's to also. The guy may have valid points, but his second hand arguing and making no real effort to develop another system just makes it useless. He just says through his eye test the Finnish league is better, and repeated the Champions Hockey League claim. He didn't give any example of players he thought made it different, he also didn't show how his same assumptions about Liiga players going between leagues didn't also affect NLA players. Analytics in hockey is far from perfect, but I do think it shows some posters here are drastically underrating the NLA in an attempt to bash Matthews and make Laine seem like the better player. You are actually balanced, so I respect your opinions, but certain posters have decided to go to the extreme. Choosing to completely disregard Armia (I don't think Laine will end up like him, but his numbers are relevent for analysis) or call Laine generational.

This writer, may have some valid points but he barely expands on his premise to prove his point, There is reason practically every scouting agency, and draft source outside of McKeen's has Matthews as the number 1 pick in the draft, and I'll trust them over an SB nation blogger. While none of those guys are perfect, and consensus has been wrong before at the top of the draft, I think many of those guys would account for ice time, minutes and line mates, Vollman's numbers just supports the view that Matthews is the better or at least more NHL ready prospect.

Like I tried to edit my last post my point on that was the way even the top prospects are looked at in Finland, they have to earn their minutes, nothing is given for them and how if we go beyond elite prospects page we can see reasons for why Laine didn't put up these playoff level points during the regular season and why it's difficult to predict his points for next season.

I've never personnally said Laine should go 1st or will go 1st because I don't care about that, and bias card would be used right away is another good reason for why not to go into that war
but I hope they can be compared to each other and compared without going to extremes.
But it will be interesting to see rankings after the playoffs/WC in a month, Laine was close after the WJC and he's fighting for MVP title in the playoffs currently.

I don't think NLA is a bad league, but I'd say Liiga is the better one, it has depth and it's well coached defensive league. No one really puts up crazy numbers here.

I really hope we can clean up this thread a bit and have better talks, AINEC to Matthews/McDavid doesn't belong to this thread.

Thanks, those numbers completely refute he was used primarily as a 3rd liner by that Habs blogger, those are what guys moving between the first and 2nd lines usually get, at least in the NHL.

Just going by memory I'd say for 1st half the average was between 15- 16mins.

 

[kunekune]

Th, Vollman's numbers just supports the view that Matthews is the better or at least more NHL ready prospect.

Actually i really hope one thing. That Edmonton is having that second pick

Laine dominating FEL finals and Matthews watching the same games from TV support another view.

 

[Mestaruus]

Tappara's coach: "- Uskon, että olisimme tänään voittaneet, vaikka olisimme pelanneet vanhoilla ketjuilla, Tapola viittasi Patrik Laineen siirtoon ykkösketjun laitaan."

Rough translation: -I believe we would've won without making line changes after the previous game (moving Laine from 2nd line to first).

What a stubborn guy Tapola is. The guy has been limiting Laine's point production. Laine could be leading the playoffs' points done with better line mates earlier. Now Laine only leads the goals done. Most Finns on this forum knew better and a lot earlier than this coach.

 

[Ippenator]

agree and Armia 2010-11 Ässät Liiga 48games 18goals 11assists 29 points.

Laine 46 games 17 Goals 16 assists and 33points.

still both players= same age. Well yeah Laine had better team with him in juniors (U20) and won the cup.

He is having tremendous playoffs now. That is true Please there is so much bad things where we could compare him and we can see only good things. Just wait and hope that he is finding

Look Armia now and tell me one reason why it is no possible that it is not going to happen to Laine... Lets hope that he will find Light Force not that dark one.

I will tell you more than one reason why Laine is much better as a prospect. His shooting, in every possible way is clearly better than Armia's. He has better hands than Armia (although not very big difference here, but Laine has even bigger reach), Laine is faster and better skater, Laine is stronger and gets more involved in physical play, Laine has way better passing skills and vision.

But most of all the biggest factor why I can't see Laine go the same road as Armia, is because Laine has such an amazing will to win and to become the absolutely best player possible. This is the area where Armia has had his biggest problems. Although I have understood that he has had some change in his attitude during the last two years. Still he is very far from the ambition, work ethic and the raw will to win that makes Laine such an amazing talent and prospect. Because he has so much talent and skills to start with, and with the huge will to improve, I see absolutely no other chance than serious injuries happening, for Laine to struggle like Armia has done.

 

[Hagged]

There is obviously more to it, I was just using that to present a baseline. I've said multiple times I expect Laine to outperform his predictions using NHLe, but I also expect Matthew's to also. The guy may have valid points, but his second hand arguing and making no real effort to develop another system just makes it useless. He just says through his eye test the Finnish league is better, and repeated the Champions Hockey League claim. He didn't give any example of players he thought made it different, he also didn't show how his same assumptions about Liiga players going between leagues didn't also affect NLA players. Analytics in hockey is far from perfect, but I do think it shows some posters here are drastically underrating the NLA in an attempt to bash Matthews and make Laine seem like the better player. You are actually balanced, so I respect your opinions, but certain posters have decided to go to the extreme. Choosing to completely disregard Armia (I don't think Laine will end up like him, but his numbers are relevent for analysis) or call Laine generational.

This writer, may have some valid points but he barely expands on his premise to prove his point, There is reason practically every scouting agency, and draft source outside of McKeen's has Matthews as the number 1 pick in the draft, and I'll trust them over an SB nation blogger. While none of those guys are perfect, and consensus has been wrong before at the top of the draft, I think many of those guys would account for ice time, minutes and line mates, Vollman's numbers just supports the view that Matthews is the better or at least more NHL ready prospect.

Laine has the rookie playoffs goal scoring record by two goals despite the league having 21-year-old rookies most of the time and is three goals away of tying the most goals all time in FEL playoffs. If he would actually reach that it would be absolutely crazy for a draft eligible. Unseen in FEL, and propably unseen in the history of hockey (18-year old all time one season goal scoring record in the league play-offs in any pro league). Selanne is another who has scored 10 or over at U22 age (21-yo Selanne did it in 10 games though, so a lot more impressive GPG of 1.00).

Armia had a good season with great center. But his problems were his skating and compete level. His production also came of offensive cherry picking, though probably coaches decision (as FEL is a system league and you don't keep your spot if you don't play to it). His production never carried over to international play so there were questionmarks whether he was a "euroleague player" by his style of play.

Armia was nowhere close to the prospect Laine is. He had promise due to his shot and release for sure, but as a guy who has followed both closely I can say that Armia was never more than a 10th OA pick at best and late 1st rounder at worst for me due to the high bust potential. Laine is flat out better and I just don't see that bust potential in Laine I saw in Armia.

Though I have to say that when another "Armia" comes in and actually puts in the work and reaches his potential, you could be looking at 30+30 type of player. Actually it seems it isn't over for Armia just yet either, though that 30+30 isn't likely going to happen.

 

[Gsus]

Armia had a good season with great center. But his problems were his skating and compete level. His production also came of offensive cherry picking, though probably coaches decision (as FEL is a system league and you don't keep your spot if you don't play to it). His production never carried over to international play so there were questionmarks whether he was a "euroleague player" by his style of play.

You don't mean international games do you? I mean Armia has quite a PPG stats from junior international games: U17 1.60ppg, U18 2.17ppg, U20 1.05ppg. The latter ones are from WJC's. Sry ot.

 

[Ippenator]

Tappara's coach: "- Uskon, että olisimme tänään voittaneet, vaikka olisimme pelanneet vanhoilla ketjuilla, Tapola viittasi Patrik Laineen siirtoon ykkösketjun laitaan."

Rough translation: -I believe we would've won without making line changes after the previous game (moving Laine from 2nd line to first).

What a stubborn guy Tapola is. The guy has been limiting Laine's point production. Laine could be leading the playoffs' points done with better line mates earlier. Now Laine only leads the goals done. Most Finns on this forum knew better and a lot earlier than this coach.

This shows exactly that many coaches nowadays tend to analyze way too much the strategic aspects of the game and they also tend to believe that experience is always priceless over extremely talented youth that can bring the spark and courage that is often needed for teams to become enigmatic forces in the playoffs. Tapola and Marjamäki are exactly this school of coaches. They love to"groom" players, as they believe that experience and tactical play is almost everything in hockey.

They sure are important also, but they should not be also overly excercised either, because that can lead into pretty flegmatic, uninspired and unproductive play after all. I tend to see it in that way that both of these coaches have been at least a bit too much playing it to the safe side with experience and defensive playing style.

But thank God they neither of them are at least not that stubborn, that when they have had such enormous talents as Laine, Aho and Pulju, they couldn't groom them too much without starting to look like total idiots (at least after the WJC), and this has meant that the superkids have got their talent to shine through, and have gained their spots in the lineups stronger and stronger.

I know that there are many people here who believe in the more emphasized meaning of experience over youth in almost every possible scenario. I'm not saying it is necessarily wrong. It just depends on your approach to the game itself and also on how you see the building of the team dynamics and chemistry. I for sure see that the best all time teams have been a great combination of experienced players but also several very young supertalents with courage and very strong will to win and improve. Often the experienced guys need kind of a "kick in the ass" from this kind of young, very talented and courageous rising stars.

This mixture brings the most exciting hockey out of teams and it needs specific type of coaches. I don't see Marjamäki, Tapola, or K. Jalonen as this type coaches unfortunately. J.Jalonen, E.Westerlund, H.Aravirta and P.Matikainen were all this type of coaches and they all are the best Finnish coaches of all time for me. These guys had balls, and they didn't go still too much to that overanalytic crap that so many coaches love to do nowadays. But if some people like that, then that is their cup of tea. Not just for me please...

 

[IFK]

I will tell you more than one reason why Laine is much better as a prospect. His shooting, in every possible way is clearly better than Armia's. He has better hands than Armia (although not very big difference here, but Laine has even bigger reach), Laine is faster and better skater, Laine is stronger and gets more involved in physical play, Laine has way better passing skills and vision.

But most of all the biggest factor why I can't see Laine go the same road as Armia, is because Laine has such an amazing will to win and become the absolutely best player possible. This is the area where Armia has had his biggest problems. Although I have understood that he has had some change in his attitude during the last two years. Still he is very far from the ambition, work ethic and the raw will to win that makes Laine such an amazing talent and prospect. Because he has so much talent and skills to start with, and with the huge will to improve, I see absolutely no other chance than serious injuries happening, for Laine to struggle like Armia has done.

Agreed and that's why Armia didn't draft top10 but 16th. Still he is very young 22, same age than Selänne when he comes to NHL, so lot can happen and Armia has chance to come good productive player, you never know. Laine is just different level in every aspect and so is Puljujärvi.

 

[kelsier]

One of the biggest assets in this player is his will to win. He hates losing more than everything. Today he carried his team on his young shoulders to tie the Liiga Finals. He is a big time winner and steps up when teams need him most. 3 goals away from tying record for most goals in FEL playoffs history and he has just turned 18 year old. Most of the people outside of Finland doesen't even realize how special that is.

This. Been watching FEL for ages and keeping an eye on the promising players but Laine's showings are just unheard of. Breaking that rookie record alone while being slotted in the second line with average to below average players is mind-blowing. Let alone scoring three points and leading the whole team in a playoff final victory against the best team in the league. It would be meaningless to speculate Laine's point totals in the regular season if Tappara wasn't balancing the lines and had let him in the first line almost from the get go. Fairly sure they'd be Barkov-like and by no doubt around PPG. The part of which I enjoy the most is that when you start thinking you've seen the best of him, Laine still manages to blow you away. That's the mold of which the truly great players are built.

 

[mirasane]

If Matthews was as good as Lemieux, Gretzky talent level, he should've destroyed Swiss league more. He was playing 1st PP and 1st line all the time, too.

Where did I say that Matthews was as good as Lemieux or Gretzky? The thing I was trying to say that Laine isn't at that level - and neither is Matthews. McDavid might be.

 

[FiLe]

This mixture brings the most exciting hockey out of teams and it needs specific type of coaches. I don't see Marjamäki, Tapola, or K. Jalonen as this type coaches unfortunately. J.Jalonen, E.Westerlund, H.Aravirta and P.Matikainen were all this type of coaches and they all are the best Finnish coaches of all time for me.

Erkka and Ara? Seriously? Those two knew how to be ultraconservative to a frustrating degree at times.

It's not the coach, really, it's the player. Any coach will give the player a shot when they see he's surpassed that threshold that he's ready to be thrust into the role of great responsibility. The difference is about how quick the coach is on the uptake. So it definitely seems like some memories grow sweeter with time. Yes, there are some good examples of those coaches using young players to great effect, but that did only come after long consideration with everyone else yelling at them to get on with it already. So in that sense they were no different from Tapola here. I can see why they might be remembered differently though, since once enough time has passed, it's far easier to remember the great results that came after it happened, not the long slog it took to get there.

Only coach who seems to constantly get it pretty quick is J.Jalonen. Erkka, on the other hand, is pretty far to the other end of the scale. While he's worked with some great young talent over the years, he sure has taken his sweet time to groom them. Marjamäki I'd actually say is closer to the quick end, all things considered. Ara is somewhere in the middle. And I wouldn't call K.Jalonen exactly inhibited either when it comes to giving young guys their chances. In fact, he's a coach I've actually seen take a reasonable amount of long shots, as in trying out a player even before we could be sure what he can deliver.

And it's hard to blame Tapola either, especially in regards to Laine. That kid seems to take giant strides not by month or year, but by day. I mean, I've talked about those young player deficiencies that have still been visible in his game. But when I watched him yesterday... there were none. I mean, he's been great throughout these entire playoffs, but I was literally a mouth agape yesterday. He did even those little things right, each and every one of them. It was as if he'd grown a year in the span of three days. Sure, he had new linemates, and their effect should not be belittled, but it was nothing short of sensational regardless.