LW Lawson Crouse - Kingston Frontenacs, OHL (2015 Draft)

[sniper81]

Saying this with barely watching Crouse play, but if any of you think scouts scout off of points, you're completely crazy. To most scouts points are 100% irrelevant. Crouse is a powerforward with offensive upside, that's what scouts see when they watch him, they aren't on any websites looking at his stats they're going over video of him

For some reason most posters in this thread are under the opinion that scouts are stupid, that plays a big factor into the debate.

 

[Romang67]

Saying this with barely watching Crouse play, but if any of you think scouts scout off of points, you're completely crazy. To most scouts points are 100% irrelevant. Crouse is a powerforward with offensive upside, that's what scouts see when they watch him, they aren't on any websites looking at his stats they're going over video of him

For some reason most posters in this thread are under the opinion that scouts are stupid, that plays a big factor into the debate.

http://canucksarmy.com/2014/5/20/we-think-the-vancouver-canucks-may-have-a-scouting-problem

Scouts can be pretty stupid sometimes.

 

[Hale The Villain]

To the people who say his upside is limited, what exactly is stopping a prospect like Crouse from becoming a goal scoring winger like Pacioretty?

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

To the people who say his upside is limited, what exactly is stopping a prospect like Crouse from becoming a goal scoring winger like Pacioretty?

Actual production, it comes down to creating chances for yourself and your teamates. Crouse isn't doing a good job of that this year.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Actual production, it comes down to creating chances for yourself and your teamates. Crouse isn't doing a good job of that this year.

Crouse is on pace for around 35/36 goals over a full season. How is 35 goals on an offensively challenged team not doing a good job this year? And considering he projects to be a goal scoring powerforward at the next level, shouldn't that be what he's judged by in junior?

 

[Hale The Villain]

Actual production, it comes down to creating chances for yourself and your teamates. Crouse isn't doing a good job of that this year.

I wouldn't consider Pacioretty much of a scoring chance creator; he's more of a scoring chance finisher. Like Crouse he is big, fast, has a great shot, can handle the puck well and has decent skill to go along with his big frame. Place a player like Pacioretty or Crouse alongside a couple players that can get the puck to them and they'll score plenty of goals, regardless of their ability to create offense on their own.

I'm not saying Crouse is going to score goals like Pacioretty in the NHL, but to say his potential is limited because he can't dangle or spot players sticks with perfect passes like a Marner or Barzal is short-sighted. No one expected Pacioretty to put up big numbers at the NHL level, but it's amazing what a player can do with size, speed and a great shot.

 

[sniper81]

http://canucksarmy.com/2014/5/20/we-think-the-vancouver-canucks-may-have-a-scouting-problem

Scouts can be pretty stupid sometimes.

But 95% think he is a top 10 talent, most think he goes between5-8, does that make them all stupid??

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

But 95% think he is a top 10 talent, most think he goes between5-8, does that make them all stupid??

Hardly. Many former scouts / NHL guy lists have him outside the top 10. And as most know NHL scout lists look totally different, with consensus top 10 guys not even in a teams top 30.

Just curious, but you tell me one NHL team that has him top 10?

 

[Aceonfire*]

Crouse reminds me of a JVR type. Not because of his play style, but his ceiling.

He might not be a "star" player but we would be a large body with skill that would complement other star forwards.

 

[Hale The Villain]

I also don't think enough people are taking into consideration that he was a big time scorer in midget. Kid was drafted 5th overall in the OHL draft for a reason. He's not lacking in skill by any means. This is not a case of a kid who came out of nowhere to be ranked top 5 because he's big and can skate. He's been a top prospect for awhile now and his play this year, especially since coming back from the world juniors, has done nothing to convince scouts otherwise.

 

[benjiv1]

Posted this on the Leaf section an argument:

The number of players drafted in the top 10 under PPG (CHL):

2014 - 0
2013 - 1 (0.91 PPG)
2012 - 1 (Galchenyuk had 2 games played)
2011 - 0
2010 - 2 (0.98 PPG/0.93 PPG)
2009 - 0
2008 - 0
2007 - 0

It is a stupid risk to take. Crouse should not be taken top 10.

*Crouse is currently at 0.78 PPG

That list is very misleading, as about 1/4th of the players taken in the top 10 are defensemen.

Additionally, putting up PPG and being drafted in the top 10 doesn’t guarantee success either.

I'd have to crunch the numbers, but I would guess that each draft has about 2 awful selections in the top 10 each year. And based on your numbers, being a PPG has very little to do with that.

 

[sniper81]

Hardly. Many former scouts / NHL guy lists have him outside the top 10. And as most know NHL scout lists look totally different, with consensus top 10 guys not even in a teams top 30.

Just curious, but you tell me one NHL team that has him top 10?

Why would anyone let that information out on a message board? Plenty of NHL teams have him firmly planted in there top 10. If that's what you think, that's what you think.

 

[Bill Waters*]

He'll look good on Kadri's wing

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

Why would anyone let that information out on a message board? Plenty of NHL teams have him firmly planted in there top 10. If that's what you think, that's what you think.

And many NHL scouts don't have him in their top 20.

 

[Get North]

It goes two ways. Crouse gets tons of ice time and first unit PP in Kingston. And still struggles to put up points. On a better team he'd probably be a 2nd/3rd liner with 2nd unit PP (if PP at all), so trying to extrapolate the way you have never works.

Part of the reason Kingston is so poor offensively is because their top lines are well below average. Now that's not all Crouse's fault entirely, but he is part of that problem. You could argue other top 10 forwards in this draft would elevate their team and line mates more than Crouse does. Certainly his lack of passing will mean if he is a 1st liner, it will be playing a very specific role.

It would be interesting to see what he produces with Bennett for a full season, to be sure. But even if his production was a bit higher, he is still in the same mold as Paul Bittner to me. Both are guys I'd love to draft, but not with a top 10 pick. Perhaps he'll end up a Blake Wheeler, or perhaps he'll end up a Colin Greening.

So what? 1 player doesn't get points by himself, he's not Connor McDavid who can get points with only himself on the ice against 5 other players.

Bittner and Crouse are quite different. Crouse is more consistent, more physical and meaner, I also think Crouse is the better skater and one of them doesn't play with Petan and Bjorkstrand.

Er, what?

What? Plenty of players like Backstrom become available whether it be by trade or in FA but players like Lucic are players you'll never find by trade or FA.

He was a mid to late first. 22nd overall. He was not drafted in the second round if thats what you're saying.

Yeah I got that wrong but I still mean't that players who are small can be found later in the draft because of those size concerns. Gaudreau, Hagelin, Sobotka, Helm, just looked at some drafts and saw some studs who are 5'11 or smaller and have made top 9 NHL careers.

 

[Dr.Sens(e)]

So what?

I think that sums up a lot of the games I've seen Crouse play I guess. I mean, he skates up and down the ice very well and seems to take the body, while also having a decent shot, but at the end of the game, has he created any chances for himself or his linemates? Maybe a few chances in total in the many games I've seen him play.

And therein lies the rub.

 

[AD1066]

What? Plenty of players like Backstrom become available whether it be by trade or in FA but players like Lucic are players you'll never find by trade or FA.

Maybe I'm confused, are you talking about Capitals Backstrom? A career PPG #1C is as rare of a player as you can find.

You absolutely try to draft a Backstrom over a Lucic.

 

[Get North]

I think that sums up a lot of the games I've seen Crouse play I guess. I mean, he skates up and down the ice very well and seems to take the body, while also having a decent shot, but at the end of the game, has he created any chances for himself or his linemates? Maybe a few chances in total in the many games I've seen him play.

And therein lies the rub.

Anybody who watches him knows how many chances he creates by himself and how dangerous he is out there. You don't get drafted 5th overall in the OHL, have the most goals at the Ivan Hlinka without creating chances

Maybe I'm confused, are you talking about Capitals Backstrom? A career PPG #1C is as rare of a player as you can find.

You absolutely try to draft a Backstrom over a Lucic.

Drafting a player isn't the same as how valuable a player is.

When Backstrom came into the league he had a 21 year old Ovechkin on his line. Wasn't PPG that year but other C's in the league didn't have that luxury. Next season, with 1 year of experience under his belt he went over PPG and he still is because he has Ovechkin on his wing. Good player but Ovechkin made his life alot easier.

A Lucic type of player is a rare breed while a guy like Backstrom who is skilled got drafted 4th overall, Giroux got drafted late in the 1st who is just as good as Backstrom if not better. You can find these guys late in the draft because they get overlooked but a guy like Crouse is a rare breed and you can't find another guy like him later in the draft.

 

[SAK11]

Anybody who watches him knows how many chances he creates by himself and how dangerous he is out there. You don't get drafted 5th overall in the OHL, have the most goals at the Ivan Hlinka without creating chances

Drafting a player isn't the same as how valuable a player is.

When Backstrom came into the league he had a 21 year old Ovechkin on his line. Wasn't PPG that year but other C's in the league didn't have that luxury. Next season, with 1 year of experience under his belt he went over PPG and he still is because he has Ovechkin on his wing. Good player but Ovechkin made his life alot easier.

A Lucic type of player is a rare breed while a guy like Backstrom who is skilled got drafted 4th overall, Giroux got drafted late in the 1st who is just as good as Backstrom if not better. You can find these guys late in the draft because they get overlooked but a guy like Crouse is a rare breed and you can't find another guy like him later in the draft.

Lucic was a 2nd round pick. Pacioretty was a late 1st round pick. Jamie Benn went in the 5th round, Wayne Simmonds in the 2nd. Those guys not being available later than the top 5 is garbage.

 

[Get North]

Lucic was a 2nd round pick. Pacioretty was a late 1st round pick. Jamie Benn went in the 5th round, Wayne Simmonds in the 2nd. Those guys not being available later than the top 5 is garbage.

And Crouse is having a better season than both Simmonds and Lucic. Way better than Lucic.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I get points aren't everything but still the production isn't even CLOSE to strome or Marner

 

[SAK11]

And Crouse is having a better season than both Simmonds and Lucic. Way better than Lucic.

Which is irrelevant to the point I made.

 

[sniper81]

And many NHL scouts don't have him in their top 20.

Are you sure about that?

 

[X66]

Name me some NHL players that put up Crouse type of numbers in junior and became prolific scorers?

Not worth a top 10 pick on, at all IMO.

 

[Get North]

Name me some NHL players that put up Crouse type of numbers in junior and became prolific scorers?

Not worth a top 10 pick on, at all IMO.

Well if we're just going to read the stat sheet then Crouse isn't a 1st rounder.