LW Juraj Slafkovsky - TPS Turku, Liiga (2022, 1st, MTL) Part 2

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Monsieur Verdoux

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I think the odds of ending up with a JVR type of career is the most realistic scenario here. I'd skip with ease before 4.
For sure. If you say so.

Maybe the odds are that Wright ends up with a Sean Monahan and Logan Cooley with a Clayton Keller type of career. These are the most realistic scenarios here (because I say so). I'd skip these guys with ease before 4.
 

Frk It

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This is a player many of you think is the best player in the draft. Why can’t facts about his season be discussed?
They can as long as you apply context to them.

Kakko being on the top of that list doesn't really help whatever point they are trying to make.
 

stastny12

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Dec 26, 2018
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Points per 60 in regular season by first round picks (+ Aho, just for fun) in Liiga since 2015:

Kakko 2.79
Laine 2.49
Lundell 2.41
Puljujärvi 2.23
Kemell 2.18
Aho 2.12
Kotkaniemi 1.96
Rantanen 1.85
Kupari 1.78
Slafkovsky 1.36
Lambert 0.86

It just doesn't look very good for Slafkovsky. Only player he outscored was Lambert, and of course, he has very much sucked in Liiga. I think Lambert will still be a first rounder, and that's why I'm listing him here.

Sidenote: Aho produced actually quite well in his draft year.
Did you create your account just for the purpose of criticizing Slafkovsky? Because it certainly seem like that.
 

elMatador

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Feb 20, 2008
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Points per 60 in regular season by first round picks (+ Aho, just for fun) in Liiga since 2015:

Kakko 2.79
Laine 2.49
Lundell 2.41
Puljujärvi 2.23
Kemell 2.18
Aho 2.12
Kotkaniemi 1.96
Rantanen 1.85
Kupari 1.78
Slafkovsky 1.36
Lambert 0.86

It just doesn't look very good for Slafkovsky. Only player he outscored was Lambert, and of course, he has very much sucked in Liiga. I think Lambert will still be a first rounder, and that's why I'm listing him here.

Sidenote: Aho produced actually quite well in his draft year.
To apply your logic Shane Wright going at 1OA is very likely to pull Patrik Stefan while Slafkovsky not going at 1OA should be a safe pick.:sarcasm:
 

peto10

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Points per 60 in regular season by first round picks (+ Aho, just for fun) in Liiga since 2015:

Kakko 2.79
Laine 2.49
Lundell 2.41
Puljujärvi 2.23
Kemell 2.18
Aho 2.12
Kotkaniemi 1.96
Rantanen 1.85
Kupari 1.78
Slafkovsky 1.36
Lambert 0.86

It just doesn't look very good for Slafkovsky. Only player he outscored was Lambert, and of course, he has very much sucked in Liiga. I think Lambert will still be a first rounder, and that's why I'm listing him here.

Sidenote: Aho produced actually quite well in his draft year.
Points per 60 in regular season by first round picks in OHL since 2015:

McDavid 2.55
Rossi 2.14
Marner 2.04
Strome 1.90
M. Tkachuk 1.88
Byfield 1.82
Wright 1.49

It just doesn't look very good for Wright.
 

Hisch13r

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May 16, 2012
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Points per 60 in regular season by first round picks in OHL since 2015:

McDavid 2.55
Rossi 2.14
Marner 2.04
Strome 1.90
M. Tkachuk 1.88
Byfield 1.82
Wright 1.49

It just doesn't look very good for Wright.

That’s PPG not P/60. I imagine the list looks generally same since they’re all probably getting similar ice time but still this isn’t accounting for whatever that ice time difference is
 

SteveCangialosi123

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Feb 17, 2012
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Points per 60 in regular season by first round picks (+ Aho, just for fun) in Liiga since 2015:

Kakko 2.79
Laine 2.49
Lundell 2.41
Puljujärvi 2.23
Kemell 2.18
Aho 2.12
Kotkaniemi 1.96
Rantanen 1.85
Kupari 1.78
Slafkovsky 1.36
Lambert 0.86

It just doesn't look very good for Slafkovsky. Only player he outscored was Lambert, and of course, he has very much sucked in Liiga. I think Lambert will still be a first rounder, and that's why I'm listing him here.

Sidenote: Aho produced actually quite well in his draft year.
You aren’t making the point you think you’re making. This suggests just looking at point production is not sufficient. Now let’s do international tournaments, which is just as large of a sample for this player. Or does that not count because some guy’s NHLe model says so?
 

Jukurit

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May 16, 2022
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I am sure Raymond wouldn't have the best points/60 of drafted players from the SHL, but he looked pretty damn good this year.

Some of scouting just comes down to evaluating/projecting tools.

Slafkovsky has a very rare blend of size/skill/skating.
Raymond actually had 1.86 P/60 in his draft year, which is very impressive production, when you consider that SHL is much better league than Liiga. If Raymond had played in Liiga in his draft year, I think he would have put up Kakko/Laine/Lundell like point totals.

Don't know how Raymond's P/60 compares to others swedish prospects (too lazy to check now).
 
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tmlmatus

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You aren’t making the point you think you’re making. This suggests just looking at point production is not sufficient. Now let’s do international tournaments, which is just as large of a sample for this player. Or does that not count because some guy’s NHLe model says so?
he is making a great point actually; that these lists are basically useless

There are too many different variables that affect a players productions.

Edit: nvm, I thought you were replying to @petoNHL
 

MasterofGrond

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I find it interesting that you can't seem to criticize Slaf in this thread while Wright is being constantly nagged on in his.

I don't have a dog in this fight, just an observation.
Is somebody deleting posts critical of Slaf while I'm not looking?

In this marketplace of ideas, criticism is always welcome, but that criticism is, of course, also open to criticism.
 
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Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
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Raymond actually had 1.86 P/60 in his draft year, which is very impressive production, when you consider that SHL is much better league than Liiga. If Raymond had played in Liiga in his draft year, I think he would have put up Kakko/Laine/Lundell like point totals.

Don't know how Raymond's P/60 compares to others swedish prospects (too lazy to check now).
How do you know it's impressive production if you don't know how it compares to other Swedish prospects?

Raymond was a guy who had pretty underwhelming raw stats in a men's league in his draft year, but looked great in international tournaments, and a team drafted him highly because they bet on his skillset. It's worked out pretty well so far.

Same could end up being true with Slafkovsky.
 

Jukurit

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How do you know it's impressive production if you don't know how it compares to other Swedish prospects?

Raymond was a guy who had pretty underwhelming raw stats in a men's league in his draft year, but looked great in international tournaments, and a team drafted him highly because they bet on his skillset. It's worked out pretty well so far.

Same could end up being true with Slafkovsky.
I literally just said. SHL is better than Liiga.
 
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MBrodeur

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Mar 30, 2022
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Raymond actually had 1.86 P/60 in his draft year, which is very impressive production, when you consider that SHL is much better league than Liiga. If Raymond had played in Liiga in his draft year, I think he would have put up Kakko/Laine/Lundell like point totals.

Impressive for sure but points don't translate well between the leagues. It's just hard to tell how many points he would've had as it depends so much on the team and his usage etc.

There's a reason why NHLe is awful and Liiga prospects seem very hard to assess so you get a lot of "busts" and "steals" from that league.
 
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Hisch13r

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Impressive for sure but points don't translate well between the leagues. It's just hard to tell how many points he would've had as it depends so much on the team and his usage etc.

There's a reason why NHLe is awful and Liiga prospects seem very hard to assess so you get a lot of "busts" and "steals" from that league.

I mean P/60 adjusts for ice time so there is some usage involved. NHLe is also not awful at all.
 

Hisch13r

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How do you know it's impressive production if you don't know how it compares to other Swedish prospects?

Raymond was a guy who had pretty underwhelming raw stats in a men's league in his draft year, but looked great in international tournaments, and a team drafted him highly because they bet on his skillset. It's worked out pretty well so far.

Same could end up being true with Slafkovsky.

Eklund - 2.23
Holtz - 2.13
Andersson - 1.99
Raymond - 1.86
Olausson - 1.59
Lundestrom - 1.33
Eriksson Ek - 1.19
Lysell - 0.94
Rosen - 0.47

Doesn't blow you away but Raymond comes out looking much better than Slaf does. No one is saying this is the be all end all but for a top 2 overall pick you can't act like Slaf's level of production is not concerning and that there isn't a lot of risk there.
 

Frk It

Mo Seider Less Problems
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Eklund - 2.23
Holtz - 2.13
Andersson - 1.99
Raymond - 1.86
Lundestrom - 1.33
Eriksson Ek - 1.19

Doesn't blow you away but Raymond comes out looking much better than Slaf does. No one is saying this is the be all end all but for a top 2 overall pick you can't act like Slaf's level of production is not concerning and there is a lot of risk there.
I mean it depends on how you interpret all this data.

Lius Andersson has been pretty bad, so Raymond having a Points/60 less than him makes you think he would be a crap top 5 choice. It wasn't.

How come Kakko isn't better than Rantanen when he had a way better points/60. That shouldn't be true, right?

This is why NHL teams spend millions of dollars to deploy scouts all over the world to watch players and don't just draft the highest producing players possible.

If Slafkovsky hadn't played in several international tournaments and looked super impressive, I would have more time for the argument you guys are trying to make. His production in Liiga could come down to his linemates, or his deployment, or a number of things.

I mean I couldn't tell you why the hell Raymond didn't play more in the SHL his +1 year when we just saw what he did in his +2 year in the NHL. Makes his coach look pretty dumb to me.
 

Pavel Buchnevich

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I mean it depends on how you interpret all this data.

Lius Andersson has been pretty bad, so Raymond having a Points/60 less than him makes you think he would be a crap top 5 choice. It wasn't.

How come Kakko isn't better than Rantanen when he had a way better points/60. That shouldn't be true, right?

This is why NHL teams spend millions of dollars to deploy scouts all over the world to watch players and don't just draft the highest producing players possible.

If Slafkovsky hadn't played in several international tournaments and looked super impressive, I would have more time for the argument you guys are trying to make. His production in Liiga could come down to his linemates, or his deployment, or a number of things.

I mean I couldn't tell you why the hell Raymond didn't play more in the SHL his +1 year when we just saw what he did in his +2 year in the NHL. Makes his coach look pretty dumb to me.
The argument being made by many though is that he’s the best player in the draft. Who was the last 1OA that barely produced at the club level? Usually, that spot isn’t a draft slot where you swing for the fences. The player picked there usually doesn’t have significant questions about how they project. The international games work in Slafkovsky’s favor, but it doesn’t mean that the club numbers are irrelevant.
 

bsu

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I like Cooley more personally but everyone loves big skilled wingers. NJ getting a stud whoever they pick @ 2
 
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ijuka

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May 14, 2016
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I mean it depends on how you interpret all this data.

Lius Andersson has been pretty bad, so Raymond having a Points/60 less than him makes you think he would be a crap top 5 choice. It wasn't.

How come Kakko isn't better than Rantanen when he had a way better points/60. That shouldn't be true, right?

This is why NHL teams spend millions of dollars to deploy scouts all over the world to watch players and don't just draft the highest producing players possible.

If Slafkovsky hadn't played in several international tournaments and looked super impressive, I would have more time for the argument you guys are trying to make. His production in Liiga could come down to his linemates, or his deployment, or a number of things.

I mean I couldn't tell you why the hell Raymond didn't play more in the SHL his +1 year when we just saw what he did in his +2 year in the NHL. Makes his coach look pretty dumb to me.
Historically, just blindly looking at stats has done very well in comparison to these NHL scouts that get paid millions of dollars. Actually, many years drafting for pure stats with zero concern for everything else has even outperformed said NHL scouts.

What's the most recent draft we can reasonably go back to, 2017? Here, too, scouts spent all year scouting and rationalizing, while being paid millions.

Take the OHL picks for example(forwards, no overagers).
Draft order:

Tippett
Vilardi
Suzuki
Thomas
Frost
Ratcliffe
Robertson
Formenton
Studnicka
Gadjovich

That's where we got by paying millions. Now, blindly statwatching:

Suzuki
Robertson
Tippett
Gadjovich
Thomas
Strome
Frost
Vilardi
Lodnia
Ratcliffe

The big hits are Robertson, Suzuki, Thomas. All top 5 when just statwatching - Robertson is 7th by scouts. Statwatching top 2 was Suzuki and Robertston, scouts got them 3rd and 4th. Now, perhaps there are more absolute busts when just statwatching, but considering the top end it's still safe to say that statwatching outperformed these NHL scouts being paid millions(once again). And we've seen this over and over again, DeBrincat first comes to mind from 2016.


With that said, you also have several other issues with your post. You use Rantanen to make a point, but Rantanen still had much better production than Slafkovsky. You use the argument "Well Kakko produced well so this argument is worthless", but surely you remember that Kakko also scored well internationally, which is a point you're using to push Slafkovsky?

Furthermore, a player producing well and failing to perform in NHL, is not exactly comparable to a player producing poorly and then performing great in NHL. There are very few examples of the latter happening, while there are tons of examples of players performing well in NHL after producing well in Liiga. So using Kakko to devalue the entire thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense - there are exceptions.

Now, on Rantanen specifically, Rantanen's skating improved at a remarkable rate soon after getting drafted - far more than I've seen the skating of any Finn his size improve. We could bank on that or something similar happening for Slafkovsky, but by default I would bet against it.

Furthermore, you make the point about TPS and opportunity, but did you actually watch any of the games as you so have to speculate? If so, you'd realize that TPS gave Slafkovsky opportunities - very strong opportunities right after the Olympics, even. But he could not deliver, and hence got put back down in the lineup. Because TPS was a contender(finished second) and they can't have Slafkovsky in a bigger role if their goal is to win.


All this is to say: 1. Your logic is not sound and 2. Stats are important for NHL projections, often outperforming NHL scouts.
 

Rusty7550

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Aug 11, 2018
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Historically, just blindly looking at stats has done very well in comparison to these NHL scouts that get paid millions of dollars. Actually, many years drafting for pure stats with zero concern for everything else has even outperformed said NHL scouts.

What's the most recent draft we can reasonably go back to, 2017? Here, too, scouts spent all year scouting and rationalizing, while being paid millions.

Take the OHL picks for example(forwards, no overagers).
Draft order:

Tippett
Vilardi
Suzuki
Thomas
Frost
Ratcliffe
Robertson
Formenton
Studnicka
Gadjovich

That's where we got by paying millions. Now, blindly statwatching:

Suzuki
Robertson
Tippett
Gadjovich
Thomas
Strome
Frost
Vilardi
Lodnia
Ratcliffe

The big hits are Robertson, Suzuki, Thomas. All top 5 when just statwatching - Robertson is 7th by scouts. Statwatching top 2 was Suzuki and Robertston, scouts got them 3rd and 4th. Now, perhaps there are more absolute busts when just statwatching, but considering the top end it's still safe to say that statwatching outperformed these NHL scouts being paid millions(once again). And we've seen this over and over again, DeBrincat first comes to mind from 2016.


With that said, you also have several other issues with your post. You use Rantanen to make a point, but Rantanen still had much better production than Slafkovsky. You use the argument "Well Kakko produced well so this argument is worthless", but surely you remember that Kakko also scored well internationally, which is a point you're using to push Slafkovsky?

Furthermore, a player producing well and failing to perform in NHL, is not exactly comparable to a player producing poorly and then performing great in NHL. There are very few examples of the latter happening, while there are tons of examples of players performing well in NHL after producing well in Liiga. So using Kakko to devalue the entire thing doesn't make a whole lot of sense - there are exceptions.

Now, on Rantanen specifically, Rantanen's skating improved at a remarkable rate soon after getting drafted - far more than I've seen the skating of any Finn his size improve. We could bank on that or something similar happening for Slafkovsky, but by default I would bet against it.

Furthermore, you make the point about TPS and opportunity, but did you actually watch any of the games as you so have to speculate? If so, you'd realize that TPS gave Slafkovsky opportunities - very strong opportunities right after the Olympics, even. But he could not deliver, and hence got put back down in the lineup. Because TPS was a contender(finished second) and they can't have Slafkovsky in a bigger role if their goal is to win.


All this is to say: 1. Your logic is not sound and 2. Stats are important for NHL projections, often outperforming NHL scouts.
After Olympics he played in 2nd line and played there till end of the season. So obviously he delivered. He was almost PPG player after Olympics in remaining regular season games and played well in the play offs. Coach used in him every situation, he scored in the finals during 5v3 power play.
 

Hisch13r

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After Olympics he played in 2nd line and played there till end of the season. So obviously he delivered. He was almost PPG player after Olympics in remaining regular season games and played well in the play offs. Coach used in him every situation, he scored in the finals during 5v3 power play.

“Almost PPG”. I believe it was 6 pts in 10 regular season games. In what world is that almost PPG??? Then the playoffs was 7 pts 18 games.
 
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