Confirmed with Link: Lockout continues Part V - Hockey cancelled till January 14th

[htpwn]

.@realsports is not allowed to take reservations from Leafs players during the lockout but will continue selling our jerseys for $300 a pop—
Joffrey Lupul (@JLupul) December 16, 2012

Really, MLSE? Locking the players out of Real Sports too?

 

[charliolemieux]

I think it is at this point. Bottom line is the business holds the cards. When the union...players finally acknowledge that and agree to a deal, nothing will be resolved. The Union does not have any interest in the health of the league, the integrity of the game or how many teams are actually sustainable. They are interested in protecting jobs and their members. That's the point of the Union. 8 of 30 teams make money in the NHL. The best thing for the business is actually contraction and/or relocation but for some reason it is not being discussed. That is not in the PA's best interest for sure (contraction). In the end the players will never recover all their lost wages from some small CBA victory. Some of them will never play again if there is no season. I would love to see the whole thing blown up and start from scratch again with less teams and more in Canada.

I'd wait another full year to see that happen.

There is not one side totally to blame in this.

Look I am open to pretty any solution that gets hockey on the ice. Mainly the LEafs.

10 CDN teams and 10 US teams? Sure.
Relegation league? If the details can be figured out I'm all for it.

I just want hockey.

 

[charliolemieux]

Really, MLSE? Locking the players out of Real Sports too?

NOw that is playing hardball. Can't even take the GF out to dinner.

Can they show up without a reservation?


ps. Lupul's awesome. If I bothered with twitter I would definitely follow him.

 

[4evaBlue]

Phoenix is according to Wiki the 6th biggest city, and 12th largest metropolitan area in the US, by population. That is why Bettman went there.

So ya, he thought he could make some semblance of a cash cow out of the city.

Nonsense. A city's size has no bearing on how many fans would flock to the rinks to watch an NHL team play. PHX is essentially a vanguard of the league, deep in "enemy territory".

I guess you haven't read Bob McCowens 100 hockey arguments.

HE makes a very valid point. The US has had almost 100 years to get to like hockey.

They just don't.

North Americans had 200+ years to get to like soccer, and while it's nowhere near a national sport, it's popularity keeps growing to this day.

Just how much money do you think American teams that are barely breaking even were able to put into establishing their team identity? Things like that won't just happen overnight. Not only can those teams not afford to market their (and the NHL's) brand, but they can't even afford to spend to the cap in an attempt to ice a semi-competitive team.

Even if (huge if) those teams managed to become successful, it doesn't necessarily breed fanbase for the team/game. The Jays could win 5 Championships in a row, I still wouldn't give a flying **** about baseball. Judging from the lack of Canadian baseball talent in the MLB, neither does most of the country.

Sure the potential #1 pick this year(JOnes, son of popeye for those old enough to remember him) is from the Sunbelt but the game will never come close to MLB, NFL, NBA, Nascar, and other sports that continue to beat out the NHL in TV ratings.

And it doesn't have to. In some cases, it's different demographics that are targeted, in others, the schedules don't conflict. Not sure how relevant the fact that more Americans watch baseball in the summer than watch hockey in the winter is.

 

[charliolemieux]

Nonsense. A city's size has no bearing on how many fans would flock to the rinks to watch an NHL team play. PHX is essentially a vanguard of the league, deep in "enemy territory".

So if it wasn't for the 4M+ metro population, then why did the NHL move to Phoenix?

North Americans had 200+ years to get to like soccer, and while it's nowhere near a national sport, it's popularity keeps growing to this day.

You cant compare the two. Soccer can be afforded by way more people than those who can afford hockey.

Just how much money do you think American teams that are barely breaking even were able to put into establishing their team identity? Things like that won't just happen overnight. Not only can those teams not afford to market their (and the NHL's) brand, but they can't even afford to spend to the cap in an attempt to ice a semi-competitive team.

What does spending to the cap have to do with a bad hockey market?
NJD spend to the cap but they hold their Stanely Cup parades in a parking lot.

Was FLA's arena full lastyear when they spent millions to reach the floor?

In 1994 there were more Rangers fans in the other teams arena for the first 3 rounds.
IN 2001, after watching a 1/2 empty building in Carolina during the finals, thousands of LEafs fans went down to Rawleigh for game 5.

Even if (huge if) those teams managed to become successful, it doesn't necessarily breed fanbase for the team/game. The Jays could win 5 Championships in a row, I still wouldn't give a flying **** about baseball. Judging from the lack of Canadian baseball talent in the MLB, neither does most of the country.

Really? the Blue Jays set the MLB record for most fans during an expansion year. Most fans in a year ever. First to 4Million fans in a year. First back to back 4million fans in a year.

As for Canadian content I suggest you Google:
Ferguson Jenkins
Larry Walker
Justin Morneau

Not only has there been Canadian content in the MLB but there has been some amazing Canadian talent in the MLB.

And it doesn't have to. In some cases, it's different demographics that are targeted, in others, the schedules don't conflict. Not sure how relevant the fact that more Americans watch baseball in the summer than watch hockey in the winter is.

It's just another sport that Americans like better.

You do know Arena football and Figure skating have beaten Hockey in TV ratings?

They just don't have the same appetite for the game that Canadians do.

I know there are some die hard American fans but as a whole population the NHL is far down the list of past times.

 

[Ari91]

Really, MLSE? Locking the players out of Real Sports too?

Lupul deleted the comment and posted:

In hindsight twitter was probably not the right place to voice my displeasure w @realsports. That's not why I use twitter. Was just rattled

To me, it doesn't seem right that he wouldn't be allowed to eat at Real Sports because of the lockout and the restaurant is owned by MLSE.

Real Sports is usually booked solid for HNIC, Sunday NFL, UFC, Boxing, etc. Isn't is possible that the restaurant was booked and that's why they couldn't take his reservation? It's been documented that even with a packed house, players can make reservations and get preferential access to the VIP lounge. Maybe because of the lockout, Lupul doesn't get that special treatment and maybe he was just being treated like a regular customer where his reservation request couldn't be accepted.

Seems really stupid if he can't eat there just because of the association to MLSE. That's pretty low but it doesn't seem to add up with all accounts of MLSE and their relationship with all of their teams. The deletion of the comment and the follow up comment suggests that regardless of what the reason, Lupul regretted the initial tweet.

 

[KuleminFan41]

You cant compare the two. Soccer can be afforded by way more people than those who can afford hockey.

It doesn't cost money more money to watch hockey on TV than soccer.So yes you can compare. It has nothing to do with playing,there are millions of sports fans that don't play their favorite sport. I've never once played organized sports but I love futebol, hockey, baseball etc

 

[4evaBlue]

So if it wasn't for the 4M+ metro population, then why did the NHL move to Phoenix?

To expand the market, and try to popularize the game, obviously. Clearly, that experiment has been a total failure so far.

You cant compare the two. Soccer can be afforded by way more people than those who can afford hockey.

And yet, it took a loooong time for it take root among the NA population.

What does spending to the cap have to do with a bad hockey market?
NJD spend to the cap but they hold their Stanely Cup parades in a parking lot.

Was FLA's arena full lastyear when they spent millions to reach the floor?

In 1994 there were more Rangers fans in the other teams arena for the first 3 rounds.
IN 2001, after watching a 1/2 empty building in Carolina during the finals, thousands of LEafs fans went down to Rawleigh for game 5.

Yes, the difference between a successful team, and a team that's able to afford to market its brand. You can be rest assured that the Leafs/Habs/Canucks/etc wouldn't be holding parades in a parking lot.

Really? the Blue Jays set the MLB record for most fans during an expansion year. Most fans in a year ever. First to 4Million fans in a year. First back to back 4million fans in a year.

Then the novelty wore off, and by now, they're lucky to get half as many fans attending games. What's it been? 2 decades now? Clear indication of the growth of the sport north of the border.

As for Canadian content I suggest you Google:
Ferguson Jenkins
Larry Walker
Justin Morneau

Not only has there been Canadian content in the MLB but there has been some amazing Canadian talent in the MLB.

It's not about picking and choosing a few individual players, but about the percentage of Canadian players in the MLB. I could cite a bunch of great American NHL players, but it wouldn't necessarily be an indication of how popular the game is in the States.

It's just another sport that Americans like better.

You do know Arena football and Figure skating have beaten Hockey in TV ratings?

They just don't have the same appetite for the game that Canadians do.

I know there are some die hard American fans but as a whole population the NHL is far down the list of past times.

American teams can't manage to get decent TV contracts, because there isn't enough fan interest. Teams can't generate much fan interest because half of the teams are more worried about avoiding bankruptcy, than creating a name/image for the team in the city.

As a comparison, the NFL gets roughly 100x the $$ from TV revenues than the NHL does (and all their TV/merchandise revenues, and 60% of the gate revenues are shared across the league). [source].

 

[charliolemieux]

To expand the market, and try to popularize the game, obviously. Clearly, that experiment has been a total failure so far.

Right but you don't think the population of Phoenix is why they chose there instead of Des Moines?

Atlanta, Dallas, Miami, Anaheim, San Jose were all chosen for the population.

Tampa was willing to pay cash money and Hamilton wouldn't or Hamilton would have a team right now. IT was only 50k if I remember right. Atleast that is hte story I have heard.

And yet, it took a loooong time for it take root among the NA population.

No. Roots level soccer is huge in NA.

Professional soccer has taken a long time. Again Americans don't like it. It is basically boring on TV.

Here in Canada in our melting pot, people are more concerned with the team their family has traditionally cheered for than TFC.


Yes, the difference between a successful team, and a team that's able to afford to market its brand. You can be rest assured that the Leafs/Habs/Canucks/etc wouldn't be holding parades in a parking lot.



Then the novelty wore off, and by now, they're lucky to get half as many fans attending games. What's it been? 2 decades now? Clear indication of the growth of the sport north of the border.

Toronto is still in the top half of attendance last I heard. Bet next year they'll crack top 10 again.

It's not about picking and choosing a few individual players, but about the percentage of Canadian players in the MLB. I could cite a bunch of great American NHL players, but it wouldn't necessarily be an indication of how popular the game is in the States.

Compare the number of Canadians playing now as opposed to 20years ago.

2 MVP's in the last 15 or so(i'm not gonna look it up) years is not bad.

American teams can't manage to get decent TV contracts, because there isn't enough fan interest. Teams can't generate much fan interest because half of the teams are more worried about avoiding bankruptcy, than creating a name/image for the team in the city.

As a comparison, the NFL gets roughly 100x the $$ from TV revenues than the NHL does (and all their TV/merchandise revenues, and 60% of the gate revenues are shared across the league). [source].

Basically I agree with you. The bolded above are some points of contention.

If the NHL had a TV deal like the NFL there would never be a labour issue.

 

[Jerkini]

Really, MLSE? Locking the players out of Real Sports too?

He probably walked in expecting to get the VIP treatment and was embarrassed in front of his date.

 

[charliolemieux]

He probably walked in expecting to get the VIP treatment and was embarrassed in front of his date.

Ya that happened to me the last time I took a girl home to my moms. Totally Dissed.

Charged me a $1.00 for a pop.

 

[TmlHockeyFan]

So NHLPA dissolving = decertification right?

 

[4evaBlue]

If the NHL had a TV deal like the NFL there would never be a labour issue.

And for that to have a chance of happening, the league needs to find a way to make the game more popular in the States.

Clearly, just putting a welfare team in the middle of nowhere (in terms of the hockey world) isn't enough. Having a healthy (profitable) expansion team in a healthy league (which the NHL is currently not) is a start. Expansion franchises that can spend $$ not only to ice a competitive team, but to organize programs/events in their communities could be a potential next step.

Either way, I don't see how folding the southern US franchises in favor of Canadian teams would help in making the game more popular. Maybe they can try awarding 7 points for each goal, and 3 points for each PP goal. Americans seem to like high scoring games.

 

[Ari91]

He probably walked in expecting to get the VIP treatment and was embarrassed in front of his date.

I hope he called ahead first and got rejected over the phone because that scenario is embarrassing. Hopefully if there's a season or if he comes back to the Leafs next year, they'll make it up to him with an all you can drink, lol. Do the players even pay for their meals there?

Until then, I guess the VIP perks are only for the players who are actually playing and making MLSE money

 

[charliolemieux]

And for that to have a chance of happening, the league needs to find a way to make the game more popular in the States.

Clearly, just putting a welfare team in the middle of nowhere (in terms of the hockey world) isn't enough. Having a healthy (profitable) expansion team in a healthy league (which the NHL is currently not) is a start. Expansion franchises that can spend $$ not only to ice a competitive team, but to organize programs/events in their communities could be a potential next step.

Either way, I don't see how folding the southern US franchises in favor of Canadian teams would help in making the game more popular. Maybe they can try awarding 7 points for each goal, and 3 points for each PP goal. Americans seem to like high scoring games.

I doubt a TV deal like that ever happens.


You might as well put a hockey team somewhere that they actually give a darn about hockey.

You are more likely to get new fans in a city that has hockey on it's front page then in a city where you can win a cup and have a few thousand show up at the parade.


If you remember the 1993 run you know. People who never cared about hockey got interested because most of Ontario was excited about it. Every Sports cast led of with it every night. THe papers had Gilmour and Clark on the front page.

It was crazy. Semi final hockey. Pathetic yet true. It had been a while since we were actually a contender.

That run and the success the next year probably generated more new hockey fans than Phoenix has done since they moved to Arizona.

 

[Hurt]

Really, MLSE? Locking the players out of Real Sports too?

Why not? Owners have control of that place, why would they let the group that is negotiating in ill will on their property?

 

[Ari91]

Why not? Owners have control of that place, why would they let the group that is negotiating in ill will on their property?

Maybe because they would be paying customers. Why try to mix the issues from one side of the business with another?

Apparently Real Sports doesn't take reservations at all during peak periods for big events (Seahawks vs Bills game was being hosted in Toronto today). Of course, if Lupul was a working athlete, he would have been exempted to this rule and been given VIP access. Several people have confirmed this reservation set up that Real Sports has so Lupul is used to getting the special treatment, it's not understandable if he wasn't aware of what the common practices are for the establishment. Again, I also think it's the reason why he retracted his comment. While MLSE is entitled to remove anyone from their property that they wish, it's still an incredibly petty thing to do if for the simple fact that he's a Leafs player who is currently locked out. The decent thing to do is to treat him like a normal customer.

 

[htpwn]

NOw that is playing hardball. Can't even take the GF out to dinner.

Can they show up without a reservation?


ps. Lupul's awesome. If I bothered with twitter I would definitely follow him.

Don't know, but JVR had the same problem apparently:

Leafs forward James van Riemsdyk, who was acquired in a trade with Philadelphia in June, initially tweeted in support of Lupul — writing “same thing happened to me a month ago #amateurhour†— before that response was removed from his feed.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012...making-reservations-at-toronto-establishment/

Why not? Owners have control of that place, why would they let the group that is negotiating in ill will on their property?

Real Sports is not a subsidiary of the Leafs, it is a subsidiary of MLSE, and thus under no obligation uphold a lockout. Doing so comes off as rather petty. Maybe they should declare that players aren't allowed to watch any channel owned by Bell or Rogers next.

As for negotiating in ill will, the PA has done no such thing and the NHL's compliant to the NLRB board will likely be thrown out on that basis.

 

[Hurt]

Maybe because they would be paying customers. Why try to mix the issues from one side of the business with another?

Apparently Real Sports doesn't take reservations at all during peak periods for big events (Seahawks vs Bills game was being hosted in Toronto today). Of course, if Lupul was a working athlete, he would have been exempted to this rule and been given VIP access. Several people have confirmed this reservation set up that Real Sports has so Lupul is used to getting the special treatment, it's not understandable if he wasn't aware of what the common practices are for the establishment. Again, I also think it's the reason why he retracted his comment. While MLSE is entitled to remove anyone from their property that they wish, it's still an incredibly petty thing to do if for the simple fact that he's a Leafs player who is currently locked out. The decent thing to do is to treat him like a normal customer.

As a massive organization that is backed by two of the largest media giants in Canada, sending a message holds larger merit over treating the 'enemy' (currently, anyways) as a normal customer. I'd do the same thing in MLSE's position. Good for them.

Real Sports is not a subsidiary of the Leafs, it is a subsidiary of MLSE, and thus under no obligation uphold a lockout. Doing so comes off as rather petty. Maybe they should declare that players aren't allowed to watch any channel owned by Bell or Rogers next.

As for negotiating in ill will, the PA has done no such thing and the NHL's compliant to the NLRB board will likely be thrown out on that basis.

I'm all for MLSE doing this. I think it's a perfectly good method of sending a message. They obviously can't control what channels people watch though so that comparison is moot.

We'll see about the NHL complaint though. In the mean time with the decertification talk, nations can vote a new leader in 24 hours but the PA needs 5 days to get 700ish people to vote via the Internet. Stall stall stall.

 

[DD03]

Why didn't JVR / Lupul get some one else to make the reservations then?

They going to get people to remove them from the building?

 

[Anthrax442]

Huh? Isn't Lupul deep in the ******* of Ural right now? Unless they also have REAL sPORTS Bar. And there are literally thousands of restaurants in this city, freedom of choice.

 

[Ari91]

Huh? Isn't Lupul deep in the ******* of Ural right now? Unless they also have REAL sPORTS Bar. And there are literally thousands of restaurants in this city, freedom of choice.

Not sure I understand what the first part of your comment means. If I understood it correctly, the KHL is on break until the 19th. Lupul flew back to Toronto last Tuesday and said that his decision to return to the KHL will depend on how things are progressing with negotiations. Though the article said that his team resumes play on Wednesday so I figure if he were rushing back, he would be on a flight back to Russia today at the lastest. Heard he was on Fan590 this morning and he was talking about his support of the union and Fehr (which I thought was weird considering that they're voting to disclaim interest over the course of this week). Didn't hear the interview myself though but I hope he was well spoken and didn't say anything stupid, lol.

 

[Anthrax442]

Not sure I understand what the first part of your comment means. If I understood it correctly, the KHL is on break until the 19th. Lupul flew back to Toronto last Tuesday and said that his decision to return to the KHL will depend on how things are progressing with negotiations. Though the article said that his team resumes play on Wednesday so I figure if he were rushing back, he would be on a flight back to Russia today at the lastest. Heard he was on Fan590 this morning and he was talking about his support of the union and Fehr (which I thought was weird considering that they're voting to disclaim interest over the course of this week). Didn't hear the interview myself though but I hope he was well spoken and didn't say anything stupid, lol.

Yeah, I heard him in the morning, I didn't know they were on break.

To my point earlier, it's not easy to play in KHL, as everyone assumes all the NHLers will rush there. Unless you have no choice. Then you play there and you are actual thankful for the opportunity. Poor Geoffrey couldn't handle some sour cream and open manhole covers.

 

[Ari91]

Just to follow up, came across this a minute ago:

Here is a partial transcript of what Lupul told The FAN on Monday:

On the tweet:
“Honestly, I wish I didn’t write that. I don’t do stuff like that on Twitter, but I was just frustrated and just wrote that. And obviously, with Twitter, you can’t really take it back. So I felt bad.â€

After one of the hosts suggested he could simply claim his account was hacked:
“Oh yeah. It was.†[laughs]

On whether he will return to Russia after the holiday break:
“No, I won’t be going back. I thought about it a little bit. I felt bad leaving the team, but like I said, my heart’s here. And I was having a little difficulty living there, with the language barrier and everything. I’m here for the foreseeable future.â€

On playing in a charity game at Maple Leaf Gardens — now known as Ryerson University’s Mattamy Athletic Centre — with NHLers such as P.K. Subban and Steven Stamkos on Wednesday night:
“I’ve never played there, or even been there, so I’m looking forward to it a lot. I know, just skating with some of the guys here, everyone’s really excited about this, and it’s obviously for a good cause. I know a lot of guys are back in this area for the holidays, so it should just be a fun event. And it just shows how much everybody cares about hockey and misses hockey, the fact that it sold out in, I think, less than a day.â€

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/12/17/leafs-forward-joffrey-lupul-on-the-nhl-lockout-and-his-restaurant-problems/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Sounds like he contacted Real Sports and apologized but I only get that impression because he said that the host suggested that he claim his account was hacked. Obviously he had contact with them after he made the tweet. Seems like a pretty classy move.

 

[Ari91]

Yeah, I heard him in the morning, I didn't know they were on break.

To my point earlier, it's not easy to play in KHL, as everyone assumes all the NHLers will rush there. Unless you have no choice. Then you play there and you are actual thankful for the opportunity. Poor Geoffrey couldn't handle some sour cream and open manhole covers.

I literally just posted an overview of his interview that I came across in the National Post online, lol. I laughed at the manhole story because if that were my experience, I don't think my eyes would ever leave the ground when I was walking around in Russia. I don't want to fall in a manhole