Confirmed with Link: Lockout continues Part V - Hockey cancelled till January 14th

[Budsfan]

They cant have those rules without a CBA. Its against the law. It would be collusion.

Putting teams into places with existing hockey support doesnt really create new fans, it just redistributes their money elsewhere. Keeping teams in non traditional areas has the potential to create new fans and create more revenue.

The first part of your post about no collusion since there is no union and no players are part of those teams, so in effect they can restructure the league and start from scratch.

The second part speaks, to the amount of money, now being thrown at teams, via profit-sharing that do not cut it at all and are in locals where ticket prices are 1/3 of what we pay here in Toronto and they still can't get enough fans to support them, with no sustaining future in sight, at least if they relocated and were said like Edmonton, where they don't make a lot money, more a break even proposition, than profit-sharing would make the whole league healthy in that kind of distribution.

This whole CBA is being held up because of the profit-sharing issue and without those 10 losing teams everyone would benefit.

 

[ULF_55]

Why would Molson want to work within Jacobs rules if he doesn't have to. Just to spite the players he (it seems) agrees with. MSG won't give a rats arse to follow any cap if they don't have to either. With the way Rogers is spending money on the Jays, why would he want to implement a 'fair' cap in hockey where he has the power of the Yankees, in the NHL.

Your talking about a group of owners that have flouted the gray area rules for the last few years, knowing full well it will change this CBA. If they have no real rules, they won't follow handshake rules either.

I agree completely.

Here is an easy one?

Q. Why would the NHL owners file suit to try and force the players to negotiate as a union if they would benefit with its' desolution?

A. They wouldn't.

I've read several articles where agents have urged the players to decertify.

Agents are about making money for themselves and their clients.

Pretty clear how the professionals view the CBA restrictions.

 

[ULF_55]

The first part of your post about no collusion since there is no union and no players are part of those teams, so in effect they can restructure the league and start from scratch.

Without the CBA players negotiate without any restrictions. We already know the going rate for NHL stars, it is about 7 million a year. If the teams got together to restrict salaries without a CBA it is collussion which is, for the most part, illegal.

They aren't allowed by law to have those agreements, that's why they want the CBA.

 

[Budsfan]

Why would Molson want to work within Jacobs rules if he doesn't have to. Just to spite the players he (it seems) agrees with. MSG won't give a rats arse to follow any cap if they don't have to either. With the way Rogers is spending money on the Jays, why would he want to implement a 'fair' cap in hockey where he has the power of the Yankees, in the NHL.

Your talking about a group of owners that have flouted the gray area rules for the last few years, knowing full well it will change this CBA. If they have no real rules, they won't follow handshake rules either.

I can't answer what one owner would do but if in fact they set up a new league so to speak and it was hammered out and all owners would have to agree to abide by those rules, or face tough penalties, which may include expulsion from the league entirely, they may in fact fall into line.

This Lockout has been the product of a lot of things and the owners #1 wanting a good ole boys club and putting teams in non hockey areas, #2 try screw the other owner by giving contracts that circumvent, the agreed upon cap system.

The players too are not blameless in this and have encouraged the owners to give these contracts and want the Lions portion in the profit-sharing.

It definitely means, setting hard and fast rules and adhering to them and cutting teams or relocating some, a healthy league is one that everyone makes money.
*

 

[Budsfan]

Without the CBA players negotiate without any restrictions. We already know the going rate for NHL stars, it is about 7 million a year. If the teams got together to restrict salaries without a CBA it is collussion which is, for the most part, illegal.

They aren't allowed by law to have those agreements, that's why they want the CBA.

I agree somewhat but since they already operate under a cap system, that has been agreed to by the former union and players, how would this differ in a restructured League.

 

[The Magic Man]

I agree completely.

Here is an easy one?

Q. Why would the NHL owners file suit to try and force the players to negotiate as a union if they would benefit with its' desolution?

A. They wouldn't.

I've read several articles where agents have urged the players to decertify.

Agents are about making money for themselves and their clients.

Pretty clear how the professionals view the CBA restrictions.

The only people who benefit from decertification is the rich. Teams like NYR and TOR all the way down to WAS and PIT(for a while, anyway) can afford to outbid everyone.

If Crosby is on the open market, what is his worth to a team like TOR? His jersey sales alone would be worth his current salary. I'd say it's fair for TOR to offer a 10 year, 150M contract. To us he's worth it. The team will win, playoffs will generate massive income, and team will still be profitable. We could easily offer that to Sid, along with a couple other key free agents.

 

[ULF_55]

I agree somewhat but since they already operate under a cap system, that has been agreed to by the former union, how would this differ in restructured League.

The Cap system is in the CBA.

Without a CBA there is no Cap System.

Now they could try and set up a system like the MLS, but I suspect they'd have to pay current owners the value of their franchises, and then sell new franchises back to them.

MLS has a budget (not a cap) but a budget, and the owners aren't really owners, they are franchisees.

I'm not sure you'd see the successful NHL clubs give up their ownership rights.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Can I change my above vote to neither?

This is getting ridiculous. What to me should have been a simple money negotiation has now turned into chaos.

Perhaps I just didn't understand it properly from the beginning but it seems to have escalated to maddening new heights.

 

[MapleLeafGardens*]

Players who were in NY for the meetings:

When they started their playing careers:

Mayers 4 years Michigan
Toews 2 years North Dakota
Miller 3 years Michigan State
Backes Minnesota 3 years State U - Mankato
Parros 4 years Princeton
St. Louis 4 years Vermont
Westgarth 4 years Princeton
Adams 4 years Harvard
Hainsey 2 years UMass-Lowell
Horcoff 4 years Michigan State
Cammalleri 3 years Michigan
Winnik 3 years New Hampshire
Darche 4 years McGill


Since there is no law saying you can't take continuing education after you become a player ...

Others like Dominic Moore with 4 years at Harvard have also been mentioned.


That's the nice thing about free net, everyone can express their opinions, informed or not.

This is the 2nd time you have posted this nonsense.

There's something like 720ish PA members what percentage of them have a business education past high school? Are those players above all you can come up with and did they even take business management? lol

How many members of the PA have ever run their own business and a multi billion dollar one at that? lol

 

[Budsfan]

The Cap system is in the CBA.

Without a CBA there is no Cap System.

Now they could try and set up a system like the MLS, but I suspect they'd have to pay current owners the value of their franchises, and then sell new franchises back to them.

MLS has a budget (not a cap) but a budget, and the owners aren't really owners, they are franchisees.

I'm not sure you'd see the successful NHL clubs give up their ownership rights.

ULF, I am not a lawyer and I have no answer to that however I'm sure that few owners will do what you're suggesting, however if they have operated under a cap system for many years and voted to ok it while in the union, then try argue it individually in a court, if they have no union, could they win.

I think the only way they could, is if the cap system were tied to say profit sharing, when ok'd by the union, then that would open up another can of worms?

 

[charliolemieux]

It isn't like having the best players coming is in the Bill or Rights or Constitution.

If they aren't willing to pay for it why should they get it?

I could see the bottom half of the relegation league going under pretty quick.

How would you do the draft?

Relegation league first?

 

[ULF_55]

This is the 2nd time you have posted this nonsense.

There's something like 720ish PA members what percentage of them have a business education past high school? Are those players above all you can come up with and did they even take business management? lol

How many members of the PA have ever run their own business and a multi billion dollar one at that? lol

How many people without a college education buy a house?

How many athletes making millions a year don't have an agent?

These aren't high school kids working on their own.

These guys have great representation from international agencies.

You completely underestimate what is going on.

 

[charliolemieux]

This is the 2nd time you have posted this nonsense.

There's something like 720ish PA members what percentage of them have a business education past high school? Are those players above all you can come up with and did they even take business management? lol

How many members of the PA have ever run their own business and a multi billion dollar one at that? lol

I think the point is that the players aren't just a bunch of uneducated idiots.

Havard and Princeton aren't exactly your local trade schools.

 

[MapleLeafGardens*]

How many people without a college education buy a house?

How many athletes making millions a year don't have an agent?

These aren't high school kids working on their own.

These guys have great representation from international agencies.

You completely underestimate what is going on.

No you are the one who is underestimating what is going on.

Under the representation of an idiot union head in Donald Fehr the PA, vast majority of whom are high school educated, has flushed millions and millions of dollars of their salaries down the toilet that they will never ever recover through a new CBA battle with the NHL. The PA is out of touch with the reality of the broken business model that is the NHL they are greedy fools who are travelling down the same failed road they marched down in 04/05. Same thing Mark Cuban has been saying.

If the PA is so smart as you are alluding to why havn't they put the NHL's final offer to a vote?

No instead the PA wants to hold a vote to start more legal court battles with the people who sign their fat pay cheques. hahah Good luck PA!!

 

[charliolemieux]

The first part of your post about no collusion since there is no union and no players are part of those teams, so in effect they can restructure the league and start from scratch.

The second part speaks, to the amount of money, now being thrown at teams, via profit-sharing that do not cut it at all and are in locals where ticket prices are 1/3 of what we pay here in Toronto and they still can't get enough fans to support them, with no sustaining future in sight, at least if they relocated and were said like Edmonton, where they don't make a lot money, more a break even proposition, than profit-sharing would make the whole league healthy in that kind of distribution.

This whole CBA is being held up because of the profit-sharing issue and without those 10 losing teams everyone would benefit.

Without a CBA(COLLECTIVE agreement) if the owners made a deal amongst themselves to adhere to a salary cap with a max player salary, that is the definition of colusion.

 

[charliolemieux]

No you are the one who is underestimating what is going on.

Under the representation of an idiot union head in Donald Fehr the PA has flushed millions and millions of dollars of their salaries down the toilet that they will never ever recover through a new CBA battle with the NHL. The PA is out of touch with the reality of the broken business model that is the NHL they are greedy fools who are travelling down the same failed road they marched down in 04/05. Same thing Mark Cuban has been saying.

I don't think they are out of touch with the broken business model they just see it differently.

The players can see it is broken, and their solution is more profit sharing to help weaker teams. Seems to work in other leagues, so it's not like it is some idea out of left field.

It's not the players fault that Bettman insisted on putting teams in Southern markets that don't support them. And it's not the players fault the owners greedy for expansion fees just smiled and nodded when Gary suggest a team in Phoenix that is 40min outside the city.

THis stalemate is not the fault of just one side.

 

[share]

Just wondering..If Bettman presented the players' last proposal to the owners would a majority of them accept it ? Oh right, a majority vote of the owners would not be enough..All Bettman needs is for 8 owners reject the proposal and he can refuse it..

 

[4evaBlue]

I don't think they are out of touch with the broken business model they just see it differently.

The players can see it is broken, and their solution is more profit sharing to help weaker teams. Seems to work in other leagues, so it's not like it is some idea out of left field.

It's not the players fault that Bettman insisted on putting teams in Southern markets that don't support them. And it's not the players fault the owners greedy for expansion fees just smiled and nodded when Gary suggest a team in Phoenix that is 40min outside the city.

THis stalemate is not the fault of just one side.

You think owners are greedy for expanding down south? Do you believe that Bettman was like "yeah, PHX will be a cashcow for sure, let's put a team down there"? He's trying to grow the game.

 

[htpwn]

The Cap system is in the CBA.

Without a CBA there is no Cap System.

Now they could try and set up a system like the MLS, but I suspect they'd have to pay current owners the value of their franchises, and then sell new franchises back to them.

MLS has a budget (not a cap) but a budget, and the owners aren't really owners, they are franchisees.

I'm not sure you'd see the successful NHL clubs give up their ownership rights.

Actually, they probably couldn't do that either.

The NHL is 30 separate and distinct businesses. Each team competes against the others for market share and capital. If they were to come together and attempt to form a single-entity, they would essentially become a monopoly in the North American market and for that reason, anti-competition regulators on both sides of the border would probably reject it.

The MLS gets by because it was founded and built under such a structure.

 

[ULF_55]

You think owners are greedy for expanding down south? Do you believe that Bettman was like "yeah, PHX will be a cashcow for sure, let's put a team down there"? He's trying to grow the game.

No, I doubt the main reason was the franchise fee.

I think he just made mistakes.

 

[ULF_55]

Actually, they probably couldn't do that either.

The NHL is 30 separate and distinct businesses. Each team competes against the others for market share and capital. If they were to come together and attempt to form a single-entity, they would essentially become a monopoly in the North American market and for that reason, anti-competition regulators on both sides of the border would probably reject it.

The MLS gets by because it was founded and built under such a structure.

Probably, that's why I said they'd probably have to buy all the franchises (at market rate) and form a completely different league.

They would have to open a new league without individual owners, and structure it like the MLS.

I suspect the successful franchises would want nothing to do with that and would create a new NHL, sans the mistakes.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

I don't think they are out of touch with the broken business model they just see it differently.

The players can see it is broken, and their solution is more profit sharing to help weaker teams. Seems to work in other leagues, so it's not like it is some idea out of left field.

It's not the players fault that Bettman insisted on putting teams in Southern markets that don't support them. And it's not the players fault the owners greedy for expansion fees just smiled and nodded when Gary suggest a team in Phoenix that is 40min outside the city.

THis stalemate is not the fault of just one side.

I think it is at this point. Bottom line is the business holds the cards. When the union...players finally acknowledge that and agree to a deal, nothing will be resolved. The Union does not have any interest in the health of the league, the integrity of the game or how many teams are actually sustainable. They are interested in protecting jobs and their members. That's the point of the Union. 8 of 30 teams make money in the NHL. The best thing for the business is actually contraction and/or relocation but for some reason it is not being discussed. That is not in the PA's best interest for sure (contraction). In the end the players will never recover all their lost wages from some small CBA victory. Some of them will never play again if there is no season. I would love to see the whole thing blown up and start from scratch again with less teams and more in Canada.

I'd wait another full year to see that happen.

 

[ULF_55]

I think it is at this point. Bottom line is the business holds the cards. When the union...players finally acknowledge that and agree to a deal, nothing will be resolved. The Union does not have any interest in the health of the league, the integrity of the game or how many teams are actually sustainable. They are interested in protecting jobs and their members. That's the point of the Union. 8 of 30 teams make money in the NHL. The best thing for the business is actually contraction and/or relocation but for some reason it is not being discussed. That is not in the PA's best interest for sure (contraction). In the end the players will never recover all their lost wages from some small CBA victory. Some of them will never play again if there is no season. I would love to see the whole thing blown up and start from scratch again with less teams and more in Canada.

I'd wait another full year to see that happen.

The owners have one interest and goal.

They care about the health and growth of the league only where it supports that one goal.

Make money.

This is a business period.

Hockey is a sport, NHL is a business.

 

[MapleLeafGardens*]

A big shout out to all the NHLPA supporters!

What's your end game? What's the end game of the NHLPA?

Millions in PA salaries lost!

NHL's final offer not even put to a PA vote!

PA headed towards a court battle and decertification multi million dollar PA contracts about to be scrapped!

No resolution in site!

5 year max on contracts and a 10 year CBA ain't cool for the PA?

Players wives credit cards gettin' maxed!

What does the PA stand to gain in continuing a battle they can't win in a league that has 9-10 teams making decent returns on investment?

What's the PA's end game?

 

[charliolemieux]

You think owners are greedy for expanding down south? Do you believe that Bettman was like "yeah, PHX will be a cashcow for sure, let's put a team down there"? He's trying to grow the game.

Phoenix is according to Wiki the 6th biggest city, and 12th largest metropolitan area in the US, by population. That is why Bettman went there.

So ya, he thought he could make some semblance of a cash cow out of the city.

I guess you haven't read Bob McCowens 100 hockey arguments.

HE makes a very valid point. The US has had almost 100 years to get to like hockey.

They just don't.

Sure the potential #1 pick this year(JOnes, son of popeye for those old enough to remember him) is from the Sunbelt but the game will never come close to MLB, NFL, NBA, Nascar, and other sports that continue to beat out the NHL in TV ratings.