OT: LOCAL COVID19 - PART IV... Seriously, local only

[Beech]

Tell it to the 400 people under 40 who have died in Canada. We can talk percentages until the cows come home but in the meantime those are real people and their families you're handwaving away.

tell that to the roughly 3 people out of 1000 younger than the age of 40 who died in 2019..pre covid.

4 out of 1000 = 0,4%.

covid deaths in Ontario: younger than 40 ~ 0.007% (Omicron only). 23 out of the ~ 3.2 million who have had it.

In 2003: 331 teenagers died of a car crash. 365, 20-35 year olds died in a car crash. So ~ 700 people between 12 and 35 died in car crashes.

Start a movement Dzingel..have cars banned. It is way worse than Covid.
then ban alcohol, Tabaco, drugs, walking, eating, and 100 other things.

Meningitis kills 0.2 people out of 100,000 ...Canada's pop of 1 to 39 year olds is ~ 19 million..38 died. proportionally, Ontario had 8 deaths.. Covid produced 23.

0.4% of all Canadians under 40 die.. in 2019 that puts the magic number at around 76,000
Infant mortality is ~ 4.5 per 100,000. Approximately 400,000 kids are born in Canada. 1800 die within year one.

Between babies and 1-39 year old ~ 68,000 Canadians die.
Covid ~ 400

What are we arguing here?

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

What are we arguing here?

Two entirely different things, if you're trying to draw the link between vehicle fatalities and a public health crisis.

 

[SPF6ty9]

Two entirely different things, if you're trying to draw the link between vehicle fatalities and a public health crisis.

They're both complex to assess in their own ways. For covid, you'd still have to consider the impacts on quality of life, mental health, economic impacts vs sickness and dying. It's a near impossible task until we're further down the line and even then it will be tough to differentiate what is attributable to covid.

For me, I have no problem with people masking or not. Let people take measures to protect themselves in a manner that makes them feel comfortable. I mean at some point we've got to just live here and trust people to make a personal assessment of what they are comfortable with without infringing on society.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

They're both complex to assess in their own ways. For covid, you'd still have to consider the impacts on quality of life, mental health, economic impacts vs sickness and dying. It's a near impossible task until we're further down the line and even then it will be tough to differentiate what is attributable to covid.

For me, I have no problem with people masking or not. Let people take measures to protect themselves in a manner that makes them feel comfortable. I mean at some point we've got to just live here and trust people to make a personal assessment of what they are comfortable with without infringing on society.

While I agree on the surface that they're both complex issues, it's pretty widely accepted that masking does offer an advantage in avoiding the spread. So if we're going to stick with this car fatality analogy, I'd argue that masking is one element that can be used to protect people in the same way that wearing a seat belt is one element that can protect people. Neither are a panacea, but both are a good idea that a vocal minority refuses to follow out of a misguided sense of "the government is telling me what to do."

 

[Knave]

They're both complex to assess in their own ways. For covid, you'd still have to consider the impacts on quality of life, mental health, economic impacts vs sickness and dying. It's a near impossible task until we're further down the line and even then it will be tough to differentiate what is attributable to covid.

For me, I have no problem with people masking or not. Let people take measures to protect themselves in a manner that makes them feel comfortable. I mean at some point we've got to just live here and trust people to make a personal assessment of what they are comfortable with without infringing on society.

I would argue they both have idiots who think they're invincible only to find out they're not.

 

[SPF6ty9]

While I agree on the surface that they're both complex issues, it's pretty widely accepted that masking does offer an advantage in avoiding the spread. So if we're going to stick with this car fatality analogy, I'd argue that masking is one element that can be used to protect people in the same way that wearing a seat belt is one element that can protect people. Neither are a panacea, but both are a good idea that a vocal minority refuses to follow out of a misguided sense of "the government is telling me what to do."

I would say that depends on the perspective of how you look at those two issues.

Not wearing a seatbelt, I'm not really sure what someone could logically say the benefit is, comfort maybe? I don't think you can come up with a reasonable argument to not wear one.

Now maybe the ones being most vocal about not wearing masks are doing so because of comfort or their freedoms or whatever, and maybe that argument holds as much weight as the seatbelt argument. But I think, and this is just my opinion and anecdotal experience, that seeing people's face and interacting with their facial expressions and body language, is very important for people from a mental health perspective.

Society has evolved so fast these days that I think sometimes it's easy to get lost in the fact that evolution has worked a lot slower. We're basically beings from thousands of years ago thrust into a new world and there's really not a lot out there that can tell us how this affects people health wise and mentally. All I can really go by is the large increase in mental health issues over time and especially during the pandemic (although increased awareness is certainly a factor there too).

Maybe we'll see down the line some studies on how the pandemic has affected things in this area. But I think there's a health argument for not masking as well, at least not all the time, which unfortunately unlike covid cases / sickness / death, is really hard to quantify. You can't replace face to face human contact.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

I would say that depends on the perspective of how you look at those two issues.

Not wearing a seatbelt, I'm not really sure what someone could logically say the benefit is, comfort maybe? I don't think you can come up with a reasonable argument to not wear one.

Now maybe the ones being most vocal about not wearing masks are doing so because of comfort or their freedoms or whatever, and maybe that argument holds as much weight as the seatbelt argument. But I think, and this is just my opinion and anecdotal experience, that seeing people's face and interacting with their facial expressions and body language, is very important for people from a mental health perspective.

Society has evolved so fast these days that I think sometimes it's easy to get lost in the fact that evolution has worked a lot slower. We're basically beings from thousands of years ago thrust into a new world and there's really not a lot out there that can tell us how this affects people health wise and mentally. All I can really go by is the large increase in mental health issues over time and especially during the pandemic (although increased awareness is certainly a factor there too).

Maybe we'll see down the line some studies on how the pandemic has affected things in this area. But I think there's a health argument for not masking as well, at least not all the time, which unfortunately unlike covid cases / sickness / death, is really hard to quantify. You can't replace face to face human contact.

The best available evidence we have points to masks being beneficial to wear. I'm very open to changing my mind on that as more evidence and more data becomes available, but if we're pitting established data against the possibility of future data that may provide an alternative viewpoint, I don't know why anyone would choose the latter.

 

[SPF6ty9]

The best available evidence we have points to masks being beneficial to wear. I'm very open to changing my mind on that as more evidence and more data becomes available, but if we're pitting established data against the possibility of future data that may provide an alternative viewpoint, I don't know why anyone would choose the latter.

I think it's fair for you to have that viewpoint. But I also think it's fair for someone to have other reasonable reasons to feel otherwise and not be expected to also hold that viewpoint.

And that's kind of what I'm getting at. Wearing a mask and other mandates may be the preferred option of lets say a 50 year old with a large family. But it could be debilitating mentally to a 30 year old that lives alone. Just because something can't be directly quantified (although we can infer some data, for example: Child abuse, suicide attempts in Canada rose during COVID-19 pandemic: report | Globalnews.ca) doesn't mean it should be ignored.

So really who's to say the health of one demographic should be placed ahead of another? What is in the best interest of someone may not be for someone else. That's why I'm in support of people having the option to do what is in their best interest health wise, especially now that there are lots of good options available to protect yourself.

 

[Billy Bridges]

I think it's fair for you to have that viewpoint. But I also think it's fair for someone to have other reasonable reasons to feel otherwise and not be expected to also hold that viewpoint.

And that's kind of what I'm getting at. Wearing a mask and other mandates may be the preferred option of lets say a 50 year old with a large family. But it could be debilitating mentally to a 30 year old that lives alone. Just because something can't be directly quantified (although we can infer some data, for example: Child abuse, suicide attempts in Canada rose during COVID-19 pandemic: report | Globalnews.ca) doesn't mean it should be ignored.

So really who's to say the health of one demographic should be placed ahead of another? What is in the best interest of someone may not be for someone else. That's why I'm in support of people having the option to do what is in their best interest health wise, especially now that there are lots of good options available to protect yourself.

Wearing a mask in public spaces to protect others is not mentally debilitating for any 30 year old.

 

[SPF6ty9]

Wearing a mask in public spaces to protect others is not mentally debilitating for any 30 year old.

Thank you for speaking for every 30 year old. Glad the age of reasonable discussion is still alive.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I think it's fair for you to have that viewpoint. But I also think it's fair for someone to have other reasonable reasons to feel otherwise and not be expected to also hold that viewpoint.

It is a free country, everyone is free to believe what they want to believe. Being allowed to believe in in whatever you want doesn't mean you can't be called for believing stupid crap when the data is crystal clear.

This whole "yeah but mental health" is such a cop out. No one is saying mental health is not an issue. It is a prototypical strawman for low information people or a dog whistle for the crazies.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Doug Ford is wearing a mask.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

Hospitalizations are back on the rise. Is it okay to worry now, or are we still "living in fear"?

COVID-19 hospitalizations in Ottawa on the rise

COVID-19 hospitalizations in Ottawa are on the rise as the level of virus detected in the city’s wastewater continues to surge to record levels.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

Hospitalizations are back on the rise. Is it okay to worry now, or are we still "living in fear"?

COVID-19 hospitalizations in Ottawa on the rise

COVID-19 hospitalizations in Ottawa are on the rise as the level of virus detected in the city’s wastewater continues to surge to record levels.

ottawa.ctvnews.ca

This virus is going to go in waves and hospitalizations will rise and fall. I would decide for yourself what your risk tolerance is and adjust your behaviours accordingly.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

 

[Beech]

Two entirely different things, if you're trying to draw the link between vehicle fatalities and a public health crisis.

have you been in a grocery store of late? A family of 4 has to eat.
have you been at a gas station of late? A family of 4 has to drive
have you called a service man for some home repair of late? A family of 4 will almost inevitably need one
have you watched CNN. 20% of all wheat is from Russia and Ukraine. That feeds much of the world and feeds large portions of the 3rd world
Ukraine, Romania, Hungary are called the world's bread basket. They feed much of the 3rd world.

Covid hysteria is causing all of this. Energy rich states are raising prices to pay for their nation's covid costs. restrictions and mandates are adding to rapidly escalating prices.
The events in Ukraine are a means to further increase revenue. Putin wants oil/gas to be sky high and was hoping to create a cartel based on food. Ukraine, and Romania..and his buddy is president of Hungary!!

at some point, the stress we will place on people will exceed reason... I think you are familiar with the movie line "Logic clearly dictates that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".

Efforts at an absolute solution will transform the argument to "the needs of a few outweigh the needs of many".

The reality is, we are now at a point when we need this in the rear view mirror.

Brent is over $100...Diesel is over $2/L... Ask a family with 2 kids to survive in all the above, so that a 95 year old is safe. One that has lived 11 years past average life expectancy and will in all probability pass away within 1-2 years.

Now ask 1-2 million people world wide who normally die of hunger. And that it is getting worse and will be a humanitarian crises by years end.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

have you been in a grocery store of late? A family of 4 has to eat.
have you been at a gas station of late? A family of 4 has to drive
have you called a service man for some home repair of late? A family of 4 will almost inevitably need one
have you watched CNN. 20% of all wheat is from Russia and Ukraine. That feeds much of the world and feeds large portions of the 3rd world
Ukraine, Romania, Hungary are called the world's bread basket. They feed much of the 3rd world.

Covid hysteria is causing all of this.

But I thought it was JustInflation?? Your unsubstantiated attempt to link global inflation to perceived COVID overreaction is one of the worst takes I've heard.

COVID is currently running rampant and we have no public health measures in place to counteract it. Instead, the Western World has conciously decided to let hospitals and vulnerable people take the brunt of it. Although COVID is visible through the windshield and side windows, we are already pretending we only see it through the rear-view.

Is that the hysteria you're referring to?

 

[Fandlauer]

 

[Golden_Jet]

Thank you for speaking for every 30 year old. Glad the age of reasonable discussion is still alive.

No it’s a dumb take, wearing a mask inside a public space , has nothing to do with a 30 year old living on his own lol. No one wears a mask inside their own house.

 

[Beech]

But I thought it was JustInflation?? Your unsubstantiated attempt to link global inflation to perceived COVID overreaction is one of the worst takes I've heard.

COVID is currently running rampant and we have no public health measures in place to counteract it. Instead, the Western World has conciously decided to let hospitals and vulnerable people take the brunt of it. Although COVID is visible through the windshield and side windows, we are already pretending we only see it through the rear-view.

Is that the hysteria you're referring to?

keep going Oscar...the next truck convoy is around the corner, but this time they will be joined by a few thousand truckers who cannot afford the $2 plus Diesel. $2.12 on Friday. Add to it Fuel permit and any independent trucker is out of business. Any company man will see a 1% raise, his hours increased and his buddy laid off. And you will see it at the grocery store.

Let's see Mom and Pop stare at a $6/lb for chicken and they have two teenage boys who can eat 2 lbs each.

Luckily, there are more of them, then of you and we will see what happens to restrictions! I want to see how Grandma is treated at her old folks home, when the workers around her are not overly happy that their 1% raise, totaling $500, yet they have to pay an extra $20/week in gas. I will make the math easier on you = $1040..So a net loss of $540... Grandma may have to wait a good hour or two in her own stool, as they are figuring out how to pay for juniors $6/lb chicken.

I hope the Covid hysterians are weighing all of this.

Global inflation is an idiot term...it is caused by forces that disrupt supply. Like purposeful jacking of prices by cartels..That can be countered by easing costs at this end. And so removing taxes, by removing costs associated with fees and services at this end. And oil costs are not the sole drivers..food production in addition to transport cost...production cost of goods and services...

Keep all costs as low as possible and you can counter the OPECs..Fuel is significant, but not 100%. A healthy global economy based upon lowest dollar will counteract OPEC and Putin, etc. That cannot be, if at every turn we scream COVID. And it cannot be if if we continue to burden ourselves with insane health care costs. We have bought 1/2 billion masks from China..1/4 billion in cost..for one item and straight overseas. if that money had been donated to diabetics, it would have paid for children on insulin in Canada!!

Keep going... June is coming, let Old Doug keep singing the covid song and let's hear Premier Del Duca.

 

[YouGotAStuGoing]

This is disingenuous. It's been well established that deaths are a lagging indicator. What we're seeing recently is a massive uptick in cases. Deaths are going to follow — not to the same extent as past waves, of course, because vaccines work. But these are all preventable deaths that we're not doing enough to prevent.

 

[Golden_Jet]

keep going Oscar...the next truck convoy is around the corner, but this time they will be joined by a few thousand truckers who cannot afford the $2 plus Diesel. $2.12 on Friday. Add to it Fuel permit and any independent trucker is out of business. Any company man will see a 1% raise, his hours increased and his buddy laid off. And you will see it at the grocery store.

Let's see Mom and Pop stare at a $6/lb for chicken and they have two teenage boys who can eat 2 lbs each.

Luckily, there are more of them, then of you and we will see what happens to restrictions! I want to see how Grandma is treated at her old folks home, when the workers around her are not overly happy that their 1% raise, totaling $500, yet they have to pay an extra $20/week in gas. I will make the math easier on you = $1040..So a net loss of $540... Grandma may have to wait a good hour or two in her own stool, as they are figuring out how to pay for juniors $6/lb chicken.

I hope the Covid hysterians are weighing all of this.

Global inflation is an idiot term...it is caused by forces that disrupt supply. Like purposeful jacking of prices by cartels..That can be countered by easing costs at this end. And so removing taxes, by removing costs associated with fees and services at this end. And oil costs are not the sole drivers..food production in addition to transport cost...production cost of goods and services...

Keep all costs as low as possible and you can counter the OPECs..Fuel is significant, but not 100%. A healthy global economy based upon lowest dollar will counteract OPEC and Putin, etc. That cannot be, if at every turn we scream COVID. And it cannot be if if we continue to burden ourselves with insane health care costs. We have bought 1/2 billion masks from China..1/4 billion in cost..for one item and straight overseas. if that money had been donated to diabetics, it would have paid for children on insulin in Canada!!

Keep going... June is coming, let Old Doug keep singing the covid song and let's hear Premier Del Duca.

Lol, didn’t make the math any easier, not following at all. No idea if this for a week, 2 weeks or whatever.

1% raise, totaling $500, yet they have to pay an extra $20/week in gas. I will make the math easier on you = $1040..So a net loss of $540

Edit: figured it out, it’s over a year,

 

[Do Make Say Think]

This is disingenuous. It's been well established that deaths are a lagging indicator. What we're seeing recently is a massive uptick in cases. Deaths are going to follow — not to the same extent as past waves, of course, because vaccines work. But these are all preventable deaths that we're not doing enough to prevent.

It is crazy we are more than two years in and some people still don't understand something as basic as "people don't just immediately drop dead when catching COVID".

Never mind that the real important stat is hospitalizations, that is the one we need to keep as low as possible. Unfortunately, deaths are people we don't need to worry about and when someone who was hospitalized dies that means a spot opens up for someone who needs it.

Instead these people see a stat and just go "SQUIRREL!". Incapable of processing information.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

This is disingenuous. It's been well established that deaths are a lagging indicator. What we're seeing recently is a massive uptick in cases. Deaths are going to follow — not to the same extent as past waves, of course, because vaccines work. But these are all preventable deaths that we're not doing enough to prevent.

Jonathan Kay is a blow-hard but I actually thought he was smarter than that tweet.