Lines

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Almost ten years later and the Leafs still haven't figured it out.

Knies/Matthews/Jarnkrok
Tavares/Domi/Cowan
Nylander/Kampf/Marner
*Reaves, Holmberg

The Leafs tell us all hockey is a strong link game.

That elite talent drives results. BUT... if the elite talent on two teams are equal then it's strength of depth that makes a difference. Which is of course the definition of a weak link game.

Which one is it Shanahan?

Is hockey a strong link game? Or is it a weak link game? Why am I asking someone I don't think has a clue anyway?

Even if you answered I would still think you're an idiot.

Keep twisting yourself into knots though. Spouting nonsense you think sounds smart. Not realizing just how incredibly stupid it actually appears for an outsider looking in.

Can't build a winning roster if you can't even figure out the basic tenets of the game first Einstein.

 

[Nineteen67]

Almost ten years later and the Leafs still haven't figured it out.

Knies/Matthews/Jarnkrok
Tavares/Domi/Cowan
Nylander/Kampf/Marner
*Reaves, Holmberg

The Leafs tell us all hockey is a strong link game.

That elite talent drives results. BUT... if the elite talent on two teams are equal then it's strength of depth that makes a difference. Which is of course the definition of a weak link game.

Which one is it Shanahan?

Is hockey a strong link game? Or is it a weak link game? Why am I asking someone I don't think has a clue anyway?

Even if you answered I would still think you're an idiot.

Keep twisting yourself into knots though. Spouting nonsense you think sounds smart. Not realizing just how incredibly stupid it actually appears for an outsider looking in.

Can't build a winning roster if you can't even figure out the basic tenets of the game first Einstein.

I have to assume that was explained to the big three coming out of RFA and they decided leaving salary on the table is not worth the risk. Now that they know what it takes to win they won’t leave dime, hence short term deals with long term AAV.
I’m not blaming them it’s a wise business decision.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I have to assume that was explained to the big three coming out of RFA and they decided leaving salary on the table is not worth the risk. Now that they know what it takes to win they won’t leave dime, hence short term deals with long term AAV.
I’m not blaming them it’s a wise business decision.

These guys should all be driving their own lines.

Secondary support players don't earn eight figure salaries. If they can't drive their own lines they shouldn't be making the big bucks. For $22.5M a year Marner and Nylander should be able to drag Kampf to thirty goals.

If they can't do it alone they can go ride the coattails of the real stars on some other team.

 

[Nineteen67]

These guys should all be driving their own lines.

Secondary support players don't earn eight figure salaries. If they can't drive their own lines they shouldn't be making the big bucks. For $22.5M a year Marner and Nylander should be able to drag Kampf to thirty goals.

If they can't do it alone they can go ride the coattails of the real stars on some other team.

I think they’re happy the way things are, to be honest.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

I think they’re happy the way things are, to be honest.

Of course they are.

Why wouldn't they be. They're racking up points. And everyone including management is raking in the big bucks.

There'$ too many good rea$on$ to not $plit up thi$ winning combination.

 

[thusk]

Nylander's stats have been improving pretty much each year regardless of the coach, while Marner's haven't.

1 - seems to be a lot of opinion without basis in fact.

2 - watching the games it's pretty obvious that Nylander is much better than Marner at anticipating the D pinching, and is position covering for them more often.

3 - "quicker to come back" easily describes the faster Nylander.

Nylander's skill set is obviously better, and I think if you watch more closely you'll see that he has the better hockey sense too.

Assuming Berube installs a more north/south style of hockey, it would seem likely to fit Nylander's current style more than Marner's.

An exemple of what i said. Nylander didn't recognize the situation, leafs D get caught out of position and Nylander had to go help his D but cutting the middle of ice to give the chance to his teammate to get back in position, he didn't so Raddysh had all time and space of the world to score. That's hockey sense, recognize what's happening around him

An other exemple. Its a kind of 4v3, nothing spectacular. The 1st player to jump in offensive zone is basically always D responsabilities, so the def take him men. But Nylander goes on the same playwr and gave up a 3v1 in front of the net. That's hockey sense. Kind of thing, it's just 2 mistake you will rarely seing Marner doing it.

Hockey sense is Marner #1 strenght and it's the higher in the team ( including Matthews) but he don't have the same skill set. If you can't only accept this only fact, just showing your lack of objectivity. We all agree Nylander skill set is better and in my opinikn he's the most skilled player in the entire team in front of Matthews. But in terme of hockey sense, he's rhe worst of leafs core. That's doesn't mean his hockey sense is pretty bad but it's noy elite for sure

 

[notbias]

Following Dubas' plan? You mean not trading the two who should be traded, just because they have NMCs?

Treliving had months to trade Marner, he either didn't want to, didn't think it was the right choice or got no good offers.

He did try to trade Nylander though.

Yes, you keep pointing out that he traded picks at the deadline, without mentioning that they were late round picks as opposed to Dubas' trading high picks with no better results.

He traded a bunch of mid-round picks for players who don't move the needle, either make big moves or don't make moves... I don't see the point in bringing in a 7th D and 13th forward.

If Tre is bad, but still better than Dubas, what does that means about Dubas.

They have the same results as GMs, but Tre turned one franchise into a non playoff team, I'd take Dubas.

It's been demonstrated often enough that Nylander's defensive shortcomings are more myth than reality, and he's pretty clearly the better offensive player.

Want to post the stats over a large sample size that says this?

 

[Maple Leaf]

They have the same results as GMs, but Tre turned one franchise into a non playoff team, I'd take Dubas.



Want to post the stats over a large sample size that says this?

Then why did they hire TRE??????????????????????????????????????????

It is a mystery to be sure

 

[Menzinger]

Then why did they hire TRE??????????????????????????????????????????

It is a mystery to be sure

Because he likely agreed to carry out Shanny's vision of the team, without hesitation.

 

[notDatsyuk]

View attachment 900134

View attachment 900135

An exemple of what i said. Nylander didn't recognize the situation, leafs D get caught out of position and Nylander had to go help his D but cutting the middle of ice to give the chance to his teammate to get back in position, he didn't so Raddysh had all time and space of the world to score. That's hockey sense, recognize what's happening around him

View attachment 900137
View attachment 900138

An other exemple. Its a kind of 4v3, nothing spectacular. The 1st player to jump in offensive zone is basically always D responsabilities, so the def take him men. But Nylander goes on the same playwr and gave up a 3v1 in front of the net. That's hockey sense. Kind of thing, it's just 2 mistake you will rarely seing Marner doing it.

Hockey sense is Marner #1 strenght and it's the higher in the team ( including Matthews) but he don't have the same skill set. If you can't only accept this only fact, just showing your lack of objectivity. We all agree Nylander skill set is better and in my opinikn he's the most skilled player in the entire team in front of Matthews. But in terme of hockey sense, he's rhe worst of leafs core. That's doesn't mean his hockey sense is pretty bad but it's noy elite for sure

I'm sure you can find a couple of examples of any player not being perfect.

Watching the games shows you that Nylander covers for pinching defencemen more often and better than Marner.

You have previously complained about Nylander not helping his D but staying out near the point (covering his man). Now you are complaining that he left his man to help the D.

You have your opinion that Marner has the highest hockey sense on the team. I have a different opinion. But just because we have differing opinions doesn't make yours a fact and mine a lack of objectivity

 

[notDatsyuk]

Treliving had months to trade Marner, he either didn't want to, didn't think it was the right choice or got no good offers.

He did try to trade Nylander though.



He traded a bunch of mid-round picks for players who don't move the needle, either make big moves or don't make moves... I don't see the point in bringing in a 7th D and 13th forward.



They have the same results as GMs, but Tre turned one franchise into a non playoff team, I'd take Dubas.



Want to post the stats over a large sample size that says this?

Tre had one month (his first) to trade Marner. He had several months to trade Nylander. He didn't trade either.

Tre traded lower round picks for players who "didn't move the needle" at one trade deadline. Dubas traded higher round picks for players who "didn't move the needle" at several trade deadlines.

In case you hadn't noticed, Dubas just turned a franchise into a non-playoff team.

It's been posted frequently here. Sorry you ignored it.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Then why did they hire TRE??????????????????????????????????????????

It is a mystery to be sure

Most GMs get fired when their team underachieves, declines, or just fails to improve. Most are eventually rehired elsewhere.

The more pertinent question is why did it take so long to fire Dubas (who, despite not improving the Leafs over his tenure, was immediately rehired)?

 

[meefer]

Given the players we have today I'll argue that we're in the playoffs with little to no fuss. Given that same group of players, I'll also argue that there has to be a significant change in how those players are used if we want to see better success in said playoffs. Essentially, one of the 4 needs to man up on the 3rd line. Matthews/Marner, Tavares/Nylander, or switch the wingers...we've seen that and it hasn't worked. Somebody has to go down to the 3rd line and do a serviceable job. I think the obvious choice is Tavares. He can win the majority of battles against most, he's capable of playing with the worker bee line mate, and playing fewer minutes should help his ability to skate effectively when on the ice.

1st: Robertson/McMann Matthews Domi
Depending on who they are playing, I'm in favour of giving Domi two targets to pass to in the Ozone. Robertson can score, whereas McMann can be the more effective forechecker when playing against 'bigger' line-ups. Matthews will be tasked to be better than ever, especially defensively, while Domi distributes and agitates.

2nd: Knies Nylander Marner
If you subscribe to the idea of 3 competitive lines, you'll agree with the idea of at least one of our top paid players ending up on the 3rd line. I'd prefer to put Nylander at 2C because of JT's age and skating. I don't expect Willy to initially shine, but with time I can see this line being a handful to play against. Knies to be the physical force (and growing defensive presence), Marner the defensive conscience and setup guy, Willy the shooter/gamebreaker. An added bonus imo: this line will take time to develop, this should help keep Knies' numbers down while not presenting an argument that he is being held back to minimize his next contract.

3rd: McMann/Robertson Tavares Jarnkrok
A Tavares led 3rd line should be competitive against most of the opposition it faces. They should certainly control the puck the majority of time after a face-off given Tavares skill at the dot. McMann and Jarnkrok offer sound complimentary skills, while not being line drivers, but combined present a diligent, professional, hard working group of players. If a Cowan or Grebyonkin type excel at camp, well, that could be exciting too.

4th: Holmberg/Dewar Quillan Dewar/Holmberg/Reaves
A bit of a risk with Quillan at C, but given his defensive player of the year award, and his more than a point a game offensive contributions last year, is it too big of an ask? With Dewar and Holmberg, does this line have what it takes to compete? Reavo as required.

on D

Rielly Tanev (the natural pairing we've long discussed)
OEL Liljegren (I hope the change to Berube helps TL gain the confidence he needs)
Benoit McCabe (punishing pairing: 246/220 hits last year respectively)

Whoever follows, whether Hakkinpaa/Niemela/Myers/Webber etc., I hope it's for short periods of time.

I really hope they don't overplay Morgan and Tanev during the regular season.

Net

Woll
Stolarz

Upside vs Proven Track Record: fingers crossed.

 

[thusk]

I'm sure you can find a couple of examples of any player not being perfect.

Watching the games shows you that Nylander covers for pinching defencemen more often and better than Marner.

You have previously complained about Nylander not helping his D but staying out near the point (covering his man). Now you are complaining that he left his man to help the D.

You have your opinion that Marner has the highest hockey sense on the team. I have a different opinion. But just because we have differing opinions doesn't make yours a fact and mine a lack of objectivity

Hockey sense is the hability to anticipate the play faster than anyone. If Nylander who had an elite hockey sense, he would be as good exemple than kucherov but it's not the case and marner would be a 50-60 pts player in the NHL. It's Marner skill who made him a elite player in the NHL and basically at the same level than Nylander in term of production.

2-If it's the case, sorry you will need to explain me why Marner always outproducing Nylander in term of pts/game every year since they are together in the NHL if Nylander is better in every part of the game

3-I know you just say it's because of Matthews but you will still need to edplain me why even without matthews in the line up in carreer, he was producing at a rate of 98pts/82 game

Marner hockey sense is one of the best in the league and that's #1 reason he's an elite player and a 90-100 pts player and the fact you refusing o accept than Marner is better in 1 part of the game clearly showing a lack of objectivity here.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Hockey sense is the hability to anticipate the play faster than anyone. If Nylander who had an elite hockey sense, he would be as good exemple than kucherov but it's not the case and marner would be a 50-60 pts player in the NHL. It's Marner skill who made him a elite player in the NHL and basically at the same level than Nylander in term of production.

2-If it's the case, sorry you will need to explain me why Marner always outproducing Nylander in term of pts/game every year since they are together in the NHL if Nylander is better in every part of the game

3-I know you just say it's because of Matthews but you will still need to edplain me why even without matthews in the line up in carreer, he was producing at a rate of 98pts/82 game

Marner hockey sense is one of the best in the league and that's #1 reason he's an elite player and a 90-100 pts player and the fact you refusing o accept than Marner is better in 1 part of the game clearly showing a lack of objectivity here.

Ah yes, Kucherov. Nylander had 10% fewer goals and 40% fewer assists in 10% less ice time and playing on the second line with Tavares instead of the top line like Kucherov (and Marner). So Kucherov and Marner have elite hockey sense, but can't outperform someone with much worse?

Now you're saying it's Marner's skill that makes him elite. I thought you said it was his hockey sense? I agree it's skill that makes his numbers as good as Nylander's, but that skill is Matthews'.

2 - I didn't mention that in this post, but if you want to see the reason, just look at their respective centres. An indication of that is that in the small amount of time he's not with Matthews, his numbers, both offensive and defensive, drop.

Again, your opinion doesn't prove that I have a lack of objectivity.

Nylander's hockey sense is one of the best in the league and that's #1 reason he's an elite player and a 90-100 pts player and the fact you refuse to accept than Nylander is better in 1 part of the game clearly shows a lack of objectivity here.

I can say exactly the same thing, and it means exactly the same: we have different opinions.

 

[thusk]

Ah yes, Kucherov. Nylander had 10% fewer goals and 40% fewer assists in 10% less ice time and playing on the second line with Tavares instead of the top line like Kucherov (and Marner). So Kucherov and Marner have elite hockey sense, but can't outperform someone with much worse?

Now you're saying it's Marner's skill that makes him elite. I thought you said it was his hockey sense? I agree it's skill that makes his numbers as good as Nylander's, but that skill is Matthews'.

2 - I didn't mention that in this post, but if you want to see the reason, just look at their respective centres. An indication of that is that in the small amount of time he's not with Matthews, his numbers, both offensive and defensive, drop.

Again, your opinion doesn't prove that I have a lack of objectivity.

Nylander's hockey sense is one of the best in the league and that's #1 reason he's an elite player and a 90-100 pts player and the fact you refuse to accept than Nylander is better in 1 part of the game clearly shows a lack of objectivity here.

I can say exactly the same thing, and it means exactly the same: we have different opinions.

1-Hockey sense is a skill............

since the beggining i said
-Nylander skill set who including shoot + pass+ Deke+ Hand eye coordination > Marner
- skating of nylander who's including speed/ agility > Marner
-Physicality =
but Nylander hockey sense <<< Marner

Maybe that will be more clear for you. I saying Nylander is better everywhere except 1 part of the game with hockey sense, it's not a lack of objectivity against Nylander. It's also the reason why Marner is a better 2 way player and nylander a better offensive player.

I giving you an other exemple... Tanev skill set and skating is at best average. What's making him one of best shutdown D in the NHL is his elite hockey sense and understanding to the game.

 

[Craig Button]

Nylander Tavares Matthews
McMann Domi Marner
Knies Kampf Cowan
Dewer Holmberg Jarnkrok

 

[notDatsyuk]

1-Hockey sense is a skill............

since the beggining i said
-Nylander skill set who including shoot + pass+ Deke+ Hand eye coordination > Marner
- skating of nylander who's including speed/ agility > Marner
-Physicality =
but Nylander hockey sense <<< Marner

Maybe that will be more clear for you. I saying Nylander is better everywhere except 1 part of the game with hockey sense, it's not a lack of objectivity against Nylander. It's also the reason why Marner is a better 2 way player and nylander a better offensive player.

I giving you an other exemple... Tanev skill set and skating is at best average. What's making him one of best shutdown D in the NHL is his elite hockey sense and understanding to the game.

Ok. You kept talking about 'sense' as though it was different from 'skill' - mental as opposed to physical. If you want to lump them all together that's fine. It doesn't change anything.

If you think that Marner has better 'hockey sense' than Nylander, that's still your opinion (which is valid), but I still have a different opinion, and they are still just opinions.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Nylander Tavares Matthews
McMann Domi Marner
Knies Kampf Cowan
Dewer Holmberg Jarnkrok

Putting a player who is hardly more than a 3C at this stage of his career as the #1 centre between the team's two best players (and playing them both out of their natural positions to do so) is bizarre to say the least.

Do you have any justification?

 

[Craig Button]

Putting a player who is hardly more than a 3C at this stage of his career as the #1 centre between the team's two best players (and playing them both out of their natural positions to do so) is bizarre to say the least.

Do you have any justification?

Yes I do

 

[jaric1862]

Delete

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yes I do

Please let us know what it is.

 

[hamzarocks]

I think we need to gp Minnesota approach but on steroids and have a top 6 C be a low level player who has some speed, and defensive awareness playing between to great offensive wingers

Wild ran in 2022:

Kaprizov - Hartman - Zuccarello

Kaprizov was a hart level player that year
Zuccarello was a ~90ish pt winger who was amongst best play makers in the league
Ryan hartman had a career high and put almost 60 pts and was the defensive precense on that line

Leafs lines:

Knies - Matthews - Domi
W. Nylander - Dewar/Holmberg - Marner
Roberton/A.Nylander - Tavares - McMann
Jarnkrok - Kampf - Holmberg/Dewar

The lines would have:

L1 -->

Matthews is the best goal scorer in the league and reg season he is going to lead the team in goals and be top 5ish at worst if he has a down season

Domi has shown to be a very gifted passer, has had chemistry with both Knies and Matthews at pts last year and has some grit/snot along with great hands to make entries.

Knies is the promising LW with PWF type build who plays on the boards, jams in rebounds, finishes tips and bumper chances, and can lay hits to spark the line when they are down at times

L2 -->

Nylander --> 11.5M next year, coming off a 98 pt year. 45 goals and 45 assists is minimum I expect and playing with a top 5ish play maker in the league in marner will allow for his goal scoring to be maximized. His passing is a dual threat and marner can get 30ish goals usually so line has 2nd good goal scorer

Dewar/Holmberg: In there primes basically as 25ish year olds, can play a two way game, have strong skating and decent shots + board play. Basically in a top 6 on a non-playoff team they may give 35-40 pts while being poor defenisvely as a reasult of shitty defensive structure/d-man and bad goaltending. On this team we have hopefully above average defense and good goaltending allowing them to be 45-55 pt 2C who make a positive possession and defensive impact

Marner --> 30 goals and 70 assist is expectation, he would have a top 10ish goal scorer to play with and would have a center who is defensive responsible so he can focus on making strong and smarter offensive plays without having to focus on being defensive oriented too much

L3 --> if robertson signs he can play 3LW otherwise Nylander. Tavares is slow and declining but on L3 hes playing with McMann who isnt the fastest skater but has good touch and shot and a player he had chemistry with briefly this year. Robertson would be ideal 3rd piece as he still has strong offensive tools (shot, hands, passing) and would really give the line a generator and one-time finishing threat

L4 --> Defensively responsible, 2 Vets who play a safe and trust worthy game and wont cheat you on effort. RW is whoever doesnt get project 2C in L2 above and can fit well onto the line not being a major defensive black hole

I really hope we try to run the above lines and play 88 and 16 together with dewar/holmberg next year

 

[notDatsyuk]

Yes I do

Please let us know what it is.

 

[Craig Button]

Please let us know what it is.

JT has better face off winning percentage and is not barely a 3C