Matthews
JT
Holmberg
Jarnkrok
Dewar
Minten
Not optimal - think we need a quality 2 c to really contend. But not terrible without Kampf.
Lines
- Thread starter Bloomberg
- Start date
Matthews
JT
Holmberg
Jarnkrok
Dewar
Minten
Not optimal - think we need a quality 2 c to really contend. But not terrible without Kampf.
Matthews played a much more well rounded game with Domi instead of Marner. Domi distributed the puck without bias rather than just looking to pass off to Matthews and it showed another level to Matthews game. Keep Marner away from him.
100%
Domi and Knies unlock a more aggressive style out of Matthews. As a big bodied c he needs guys like this on his line. Enough of the finesse shit.
Mess
Global Moderator
If Matthews had a power-forward winger like Matthew Tkachuck as his winger he would play a more physical game and those types of player play is infectious and draws others into the battle.
- Dec 12, 2017
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The only thing that got worse last year was JT's PPP, he improved his even-strength numbers.
I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up back as a PPG player or close to it.
I'd still like to see Nylander as C, but as 3C where he gets double-shifted for ozone draws here and there beside Matthews/Tavares, this way, he still gets his 1st line minutes.
Knies - Matthews - Domi
McMann - Tavares - Marner
Holmberg/Nylander - Nylander/Holmberg - Robertson
Dewar - Kampf - Jarnkrok
Rielly - Tanev
McCabe - Benoit
OEL - Liljegren
Matthew Tkachuk isn't Brady Tkachuk. I'm not sure how much of a power forward he is.
For reference, Knies hits more than him, and Tavares almost hits as much.
But if you want to try to get a Tkachuk, all you need to do is find a GM dumb enough to trade a young superstar away like the one that traded Tkachuk and trade with him.
Why do you dislike Tre so much? Tkachuk forced himself out of CGY and they were losing Johnny for nothing. Tre had his hands tied in that deal, still got a top pairing D man and regardless of your views on Hub, did the best he could in a shit situation.
I agree, but I think it’s Domi’s “no fear” attitude that is very infectious. Knies is built the same mentally - he’s not scared of anyone. We need Matthews to have this mentality - he has another level to unlock if he achieves this mindset.
Knies can be that guy. He has the tools to be one of the best power forwards in the game. Keep giving him reps with AM and we are golden.
He is a bad GM, I don't like him building the team.
Why are you making excuses for a bad trade and signings?
Treliving also gave Tkachuk that 3 year deal that led to him leaving, could have offered him a much longer team to begin with and not had to deal with this, or at least hold all the cards.
The same group that wants Marner gone because he is overpaid seems to let Treliving off the hook for Huberdeau a lot (not sure if you're in this group).
I was open to giving him a chance but he has been terrible here too... only saving grace is he hasn't traded away one of our better players and ruined our team for years to come because he was "forced", so maybe he learned there.
The Tkachuk trade is not the only bad thing he's done, it was just by far the most crippling to Calgary, and he's never put together a competitive team.
Fair points.
I am in the camp that he hasn’t really been given enough time, nor enough autonomy, to actually make a difference. This could be a blessing, if what you believe is actually true.
I think he gets a lot of unjust heat for his last year in CGY. Didn’t he have a POHO to report to there aswell? Regardless, I think Tkachuk negotiated that 3 year deal as he knew CGY wasn’t in his long term plans. I think the return at the time, at least on paper (doesn’t mean anything), was a decent haul for a player who was not returning. I remember he had a pretty positive rating going into that season where things started to fall apart. New top players, new coach, new d man, that’s a lot of change in 1 offseason.
I think Shanny is the problem the more I read on here. I can agree it’s time for change. Tre probably goes with him, unless he’s our next POHO…
My stance on Marner is one that a lot of fans don’t agree with me on. I think at his cap hit, coupled with the existing pieces on the squad, Marner is a luxury. And his cap dollars could be better used elsewhere. Not looking to change your mind, but happy to debate with you, in the Marner thread!
Fw look like:
Cowan - Matthews - Domi
McMann - Tavares - Marner
Knies - Nylander - Järnkrok
Dewar - Kämpf - Reaves
Cowan - Matthews - Domi
McMann - Tavares - Marner
Knies - Nylander - Järnkrok
Dewar - Kämpf - Reaves
He has spent over 50 million of the 88 million available.
I think it is enough to change over the team a fair bit, but he has followed Dubas' plan so far.
I also hated his deadline... spent a lot of picks on dime a dozen players, either go for it or don't, why bring in Edmundson (who sucked) for a couple picks?
On paper it was great, if we are only judging on paper, I think that our past GM deserves a lot more respect, but he failed in reality and so did Treliving.
I thought the Florida trade was good at the time too, but turns out someone is bad at player evaluation in Calgary, and it might be Treliving.
He put together that team, so the blame should be on him, not sure who else to blame for how bad the Flames are now and how screwed they are for years to come.
Slightly off-topic, but I think the Tavares signing was seen as good by most people as well.
Do not care if Shanny stays or goes, I don't know how much influence he has on things, but I think how he handled the whole Dubas situation shows he has the maturity of a 10 year old (don't think Dubas handled it well either).
Nylander is the luxury as he adds nothing to the defensive side of the puck and can't PK as good as Marner.
Marner is more valuable in my opinion.
I don't trust Treliving to spend the cap wisely... he's had 20 million two years in a row and his best signing (outside of Domi) Tanev, a good, but older defensive D at 34 who is injured a fair bit and signed for 6 years with a NMC.
I also don't buy that we have these huge cap concerns, we have ~3 million spent on goalies, and if Woll stays healthy, our number one may be ~700k, whatever overpayment we have on Marner it can be spent elsewhere because of the cheap goalies we have.
Having said all that, whatever makes the team better.
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notDatsyuk
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Not much. A few games in preseason and a bit in odd games. And regularly with Sweden in international competition.
If we assume JT is better used at 3C, and Domi seems to work better on the wing, is there anyone else on the team who stands out as a candidate?
notDatsyuk
Registered User
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Fair enough - I phrased it poorly.
Expecting JT to not continue to decline is optimistic.
You said "(w)hat are your thoughts on Minten and Cowan making the team?" I assumed that meant you weren't sure they would.
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notDatsyuk
Registered User
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Willy is more of a driver, but I think either one is wasted on the third line. I'd rather see JT at 3C and Mitch and Willy on the second line.
Ianturnedbull
Registered User
- Jun 11, 2022
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At this point (Aug. 9th, 2024) no. No one stands out.
Even if TOR goes with a Nylander at C, it means that it's a very incomplete team. They need to do more than hope that Minton makes the team out of camp, etc.
Menzinger
Kessel4LadyByng
Nylander was still a developing player under Babcock, so I don't think one can't make too dramatic of an observation based on play.at that stage of his career.
thusk
Registered User
Nylander stats instantly increasing the day Babcock left for Keefe
1-Nylander forechecking is pretty useless even more than marner and the fact he's cheating in the offensive will hurt much more than marner but Marner had a better anticipation
2-If leafs get def more involve in the offensive game, they will need thir foward to be careful to cover them who and not only focussing for the offe sive end because leafs will constantly be caught on 2v1, 3v1, breakway and whatever.
3-More agressive on forechecking also mean foward will need to be quicker to came back in the defensive end because the ice they will need to cover will be higher and they will need to make smarter play defensively and took better decision without the puck
I said it for years, Nylander skill set is better than Marner no doubt about it but Marner is smarter and with a better hockey IQ than Nylander and for me it's not evwn close. It's the reason why i think Marner will adapt more easily into Berube system than Nylander.
For me a kind of Barkov, Bergeron, Stone, o'reilly are easier to adapt in any system than player like huberdeau, gaudreau, barzal, Duchene and the strenght #1 of every player of 1st list is the hability to read and anticipate the play, strenght #1 of 2nd group is pure skill. So yes i m pretty confident than marner will adapt better than Nylander under Berude
I appreciate that you've made very interesting points along the way about Marner adapting well to counter the concerns, but can't make heads or tails about the Nylander commentary.
Your claim that high IQ is better than low IQ when adapting to a new system makes sense. That will be true for every attribute. But your second list of example players are closer to Marner than your first list, and none of the example players are similar to Nylander, so it's difficult to arrive at your conclusions.
Nylander under previous coaches has gotten away with a lot but the whole premise of this discussion is that the coach is changing. One on one, him and Matty are the best forwards on the team defensively. Perhaps there are other defensive deficiencies, and maybe they can't be corrected, but even if lets not lose sight of the fact that the offensive system will be designed around Matty and Willy breaking games for us when it matters most. Ex. He won't be covering for Tanev.
notDatsyuk
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I think the bias is more against whoever replaced Dubas. There seems to be an unwillingness to acknowledge the good moves and a need to be overly critical of the bad ones, particularly the ones in Calgary, which are mainly only bad in hindsight.
thusk
Registered User
I not agree at all than huberdeau/ gaudreau are closer to marner than nylander. For me They are 2 offensive mind who's taking a lot of risk offensively and a tendacy to cheat by leaving the defensive zone before opposite D did it and before you're sure than your teammate will get it to try to caught d tout of position and skip defensive backcheck ...for me that's how nylander playing vs who a defensive first minded foward who basically never leaving defensive territories before he's sure his team will get the puck and who's most of the time the 1st guy to back checking and you will basically never saw marner stop playing in any defensive situation
Personally outside the fact they are better playmaker than shooter, i don't see any comparaison possible between huberdeau/Gaudreau and marner
I just think people need to be careful, 2 year ago nobody would keep nylander over marner and right now its an other story. Thing can change pretty quickly
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notDatsyuk
Registered User
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Following Dubas' plan? You mean not trading the two who should be traded, just because they have NMCs?
Yes, you keep pointing out that he traded picks at the deadline, without mentioning that they were late round picks as opposed to Dubas' trading high picks with no better results.
If Tre is bad, but still better than Dubas, what does that means about Dubas.
It's been demonstrated often enough that Nylander's defensive shortcomings are more myth than reality, and he's pretty clearly the better offensive player.
notDatsyuk
Registered User
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Nylander's stats have been improving pretty much each year regardless of the coach, while Marner's haven't.
1 - seems to be a lot of opinion without basis in fact.
2 - watching the games it's pretty obvious that Nylander is much better than Marner at anticipating the D pinching, and is position covering for them more often.
3 - "quicker to come back" easily describes the faster Nylander.
Nylander's skill set is obviously better, and I think if you watch more closely you'll see that he has the better hockey sense too.
Assuming Berube installs a more north/south style of hockey, it would seem likely to fit Nylander's current style more than Marner's.
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Bringing back a failed lineup is as bad as bringing back a worse team. I don’t see it at all this year. We got Berube, but gave him no Berube favourable players. Seems really weird. We already saw last year in St.Louis he can’t coach a soft team
conFABulator
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- Apr 11, 2021
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Knies Matthews Domi.
This is a good set of wingers for AM. Obviously Domi can distribute the puck and Knies can pursue, hit and finish. This line has the potential to deliver real value at -$18M for the line. Domi (with PP time) could be a point per gamer (or close) and Knies could develop quickly into 30-30 guy and I would like to see him get some PP time also. Bertuzzi leaving creates an opportunity for Knies.
Holmberg Nylander Marner
Either Holmberg or Nylander (or Marner actually) could centre this line. I like giving Nylander the opportunity and 30 or so games to make it work. Domi playing with Matthews allows us to leverage Marner elsewhere. He has the defensive game (as does Holmberg) to help support Willy's transition back to C. His playmaking could also help Nylander top 40 and approach 50 goals. This line working could finally produce the matchup nightmares we have been talking about since Tavares got here. This also gives Holmberg chance to develop into a legit top nine option (with Cowan, Grebyenkin, and even A. Nylander there if he falters).
Robertson Tavares McMann
This line has worked well in the past and seems well suited for Tavares and 3C. They should get 12 minutes of ES as a night had the potential to kick in 70+ goals and will face more favorable matchups than JT has in his Leafs tenure so far. This gives Robertson the chance to show what he can actually do.
Dewar Kampf Jarnkrok
This is a good fourth line (overpaid, but good) that serves a purpose. They can play shit down and they make up there of our top four PKers. They get seven or eight ES minutes and don't hurt us when on the ice.
I think it is important to give the lines a chance to develop chemistry and when injuries hit it would be good to replace the injured guy without juggling the top three lines too much. If Matthews goes down we shift Domi to C and put Grebyenkin, Cowan or Jarnkrok on the wing spot, maybe that is not a top line anymore soner just increase the Nylander and Tavares lines' usage a bit.
On that note, I would like to see Holmberg, Robertson, Grebyenkin, Cowan, Minten, and Steeves at least 300 combined games this year. We need to start integrating youth and injuries will hit.
Rielly Tanev
I don't need to explain this one at all as everyone has it is a pairing. If Tanev can be the partner for Reilly we hope he can this becomes a big addition to this team.
OEL Liljegren
People that aren't really excited about what OEL might do for this unit may not have looked at last year closely enough. He might not the rapidly declining vet that has a buyout in his past, he might be the guy that was finally healthy and stepped in to play a big role on the SC champs. Our pairings our balanced and we don't need huge ES minutes here. If he can help fellow countryman, Lilly develop into a top four D for us this is a huge piece for us.
Benoit McCabe
This worked well for us last year and another year together might help both players continue to grow for us.
Our depth is ok, pretty good is Hakanpaa is a Leaf and playing. Otherwise, Myers, Mermis, and Timmins plus a bunch of Marlies should be capable of of injury and rest fill ins.
Woll (46 gp)
Stolarz (36 gp)
PP1 - Matthews, Domi, Knies, Robertson, Liljegren
PP2 - Marner, Nylander, Tavares, McMann, Rielly
PKers - Kampf, Jarnkrok, Dewar, Marner, Knies, McMann, Nylander, Matthews and Tanev, McCabe, Benoit, OEL
We are the best Leafs team of the Matthews era if:
(1) Our second line has 40+ goal Nylander and a 100 pt Marner on it.
(2) Tanev and Rielly for as a top pairing D and are healthy
(3) Our goaltending is average to above average
We have playoff success if..
(1) We have depth and balanced scoring
(2) Our PK and PP are average or better
(3) One of our three goalies is healthy and hot.
Those seem like three reasonable bets to make or hope for.
This is a good set of wingers for AM. Obviously Domi can distribute the puck and Knies can pursue, hit and finish. This line has the potential to deliver real value at -$18M for the line. Domi (with PP time) could be a point per gamer (or close) and Knies could develop quickly into 30-30 guy and I would like to see him get some PP time also. Bertuzzi leaving creates an opportunity for Knies.
Holmberg Nylander Marner
Either Holmberg or Nylander (or Marner actually) could centre this line. I like giving Nylander the opportunity and 30 or so games to make it work. Domi playing with Matthews allows us to leverage Marner elsewhere. He has the defensive game (as does Holmberg) to help support Willy's transition back to C. His playmaking could also help Nylander top 40 and approach 50 goals. This line working could finally produce the matchup nightmares we have been talking about since Tavares got here. This also gives Holmberg chance to develop into a legit top nine option (with Cowan, Grebyenkin, and even A. Nylander there if he falters).
Robertson Tavares McMann
This line has worked well in the past and seems well suited for Tavares and 3C. They should get 12 minutes of ES as a night had the potential to kick in 70+ goals and will face more favorable matchups than JT has in his Leafs tenure so far. This gives Robertson the chance to show what he can actually do.
Dewar Kampf Jarnkrok
This is a good fourth line (overpaid, but good) that serves a purpose. They can play shit down and they make up there of our top four PKers. They get seven or eight ES minutes and don't hurt us when on the ice.
I think it is important to give the lines a chance to develop chemistry and when injuries hit it would be good to replace the injured guy without juggling the top three lines too much. If Matthews goes down we shift Domi to C and put Grebyenkin, Cowan or Jarnkrok on the wing spot, maybe that is not a top line anymore soner just increase the Nylander and Tavares lines' usage a bit.
On that note, I would like to see Holmberg, Robertson, Grebyenkin, Cowan, Minten, and Steeves at least 300 combined games this year. We need to start integrating youth and injuries will hit.
Rielly Tanev
I don't need to explain this one at all as everyone has it is a pairing. If Tanev can be the partner for Reilly we hope he can this becomes a big addition to this team.
OEL Liljegren
People that aren't really excited about what OEL might do for this unit may not have looked at last year closely enough. He might not the rapidly declining vet that has a buyout in his past, he might be the guy that was finally healthy and stepped in to play a big role on the SC champs. Our pairings our balanced and we don't need huge ES minutes here. If he can help fellow countryman, Lilly develop into a top four D for us this is a huge piece for us.
Benoit McCabe
This worked well for us last year and another year together might help both players continue to grow for us.
Our depth is ok, pretty good is Hakanpaa is a Leaf and playing. Otherwise, Myers, Mermis, and Timmins plus a bunch of Marlies should be capable of of injury and rest fill ins.
Woll (46 gp)
Stolarz (36 gp)
PP1 - Matthews, Domi, Knies, Robertson, Liljegren
PP2 - Marner, Nylander, Tavares, McMann, Rielly
PKers - Kampf, Jarnkrok, Dewar, Marner, Knies, McMann, Nylander, Matthews and Tanev, McCabe, Benoit, OEL
We are the best Leafs team of the Matthews era if:
(1) Our second line has 40+ goal Nylander and a 100 pt Marner on it.
(2) Tanev and Rielly for as a top pairing D and are healthy
(3) Our goaltending is average to above average
We have playoff success if..
(1) We have depth and balanced scoring
(2) Our PK and PP are average or better
(3) One of our three goalies is healthy and hot.
Those seem like three reasonable bets to make or hope for.
