Lines

[Tak7]

Our LW is weak and we are thin down the middle. Tre has lots more work to do.

We already knew this was the case, but seeing some of the line projections really highlights just how thin the Leafs forward core currently is. It's a mess.

If only there was a combined $6.5m being spent on OEL and Liljegren that could be repurposed into improving the offense, which always dies in the playoffs..

 

[notDatsyuk]

I fully agree. Have we tried Kampf as #3C enough times to be sure that it doesn't work? I mean, he played with Reaves and Gregor last year so we can understand why he didn't put up numbers.

I believe he played well and in a more offensive role at the WC this year. Is there any scenario where he is an underpaid 3C inst and of an overpaid 4C?

Knies Matthews Domi
Robertson Tavares Marner
McMann Kampf Nylander
Dewar Holmberg Jarnkrok

I am not sure this works, but it would be great if it did. Or...

Knies Matthews Domi
Robertson Tavares Marner
Grebenkin Kampf Nylander
McMann Holmberg Jarnkrok
Dewar

Even with Nylander carrying him, Tavares struggled at 2C last year - he will be even worse this year, and should not be playing higher than 3C.

I have no idea why you would want to put your second-best player on the third line.

 

[notDatsyuk]

His first two seasons with us he largely played a 3rd line C role, averaging over 15 minutes a night both of those seasons. He had under 30 points both of those years, and overall has 6 points in 25 playoff games with us.

Lundell by contrast was Florida's 3rd line C, and put up 17 points in 24 playoff games.

William Karlsson was Vegas' 3rd line C when they won, and he put up 17 points in 22 games.

Colorado didn't have a particularly strong 3rd line C (Helm) but generally speaking, 90%+ of Cup winners have a clearly better player than Kampf in that slot (eg Cirelli, Bozak, Eller, Bonino, etc).

Not much offence, but he was a +18 over those two seasons - behind Matthews (+51) and Kerfoot (+27), and way ahead of Tavares (-15).

Rielly/Tanev
McCabe/Liljegren
OEL/Hakanpaa
*Benoit

That defense STINKS.

How do I know this. Because there isn't a single player on there fans are united in keeping. If there was even one awesome defenseman on the team everyone would love him.

At least half the fan base is against every single one of these guys.

Benoit might actually be the most universally loved. Given such a minor role on the team this is to be expected. Shove him higher up the lineup and there'll be howls.

This isn't a Stanley Cup contending defense.

I don't know what you could call this mess. Stanley Cup contending isn't one of them. Even "defense" is a stretch.

The only hope now is they trade Marner for somebody good.

You have to remember that there are at least a couple of posters who would only like those D if Dubas had signed them.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

And if Dubas hadn't signed Tavares to that albatross contract, he would have been. Time for Berube to fix that mistake.

Who else do we have? JT is maybe a 3C at this point, and Domi looks like he belongs with Matty.

Besides, I didn't say he would be great, just better than Marner.

At the time he was signed he was 27, and a legitimate #1 center EVERYBODY would have signed him, there are A LOT of things you can be critical of Dubas for, that's not one of them.

Tavares scored 65 points last year and that was with Bertuzzi not scoring pretty much at al for about 25% of the season.

You can say he's not worth his cap hit that's fine and that's true but name me a 3rd line center that scores 65 points.

You can't that player doesn't exist

 

[jaric1862]

Knies-Matthews-Marner
McMann-Tavares-Nylander
Robertson/Cowan-Domi-Jarnkrok
Dewar/Holmberg-Kampf-Reaves

Rielly-Tanev
Benoit-McCabe
OEL-Hakanpaa/Liljergen

Woll
Stolarz

obviously we’ll se another move up front

 

[ULF_55]

And if Dubas hadn't signed Tavares to that albatross contract, he would have been. Time for Berube to fix that mistake.

Who else do we have? JT is maybe a 3C at this point, and Domi looks like he belongs with Matty.

Besides, I didn't say he would be great, just better than Marner.

Tavares is done at the end of the season at his current rate.

Next year he'll be 5th. highest paid player on the team.

We're in for a change this year.

Berube won't be Keefe.

Skeleton line-up.

1. ? - Matthews - marner ... seems like a thing
2. ? - Domi - Nylander
3. ? - Tavares - ?
4. ? - ? - ?

Expected to be there, if healthy.

• Knies
• McMann
• Holmberg

In line-up unless traded.

• Kampf
• Jarnkrok

Fighting to get into line-up

• Dewar
• Robertson

Wishful thinking

• Grebyonkin
• Minten
• Cowan
• WhoTFisThis

Line 1: Knies - history with Matthews
Line 2: Holmberg - I think versatile enough to cover center with Domi
Line 3: McMann - seems like a player that would work with Tavares if you look back at Tavares
career.
Line 3: Robertson's last at bat in Toronto
Line 4: 3 of the remainders,

1. Knies - Matthews - marner
2. Holmberg - Domi - Nylander
3. McMann - Tavares - Robertson
4. Dewar - Kampf - Jarnkrok

Grebyonkin has a Euro Clause, but he does play RW. If he's willing to stick around he could end up with Tavares on line 3.

 

[notDatsyuk]

At the time he was signed he was 27, and a legitimate #1 center EVERYBODY would have signed him, there are A LOT of things you can be critical of Dubas for, that's not one of them.

Tavares scored 65 points last year and that was with Bertuzzi not scoring pretty much at al for about 25% of the season.

You can say he's not worth his cap hit that's fine and that's true but name me a 3rd line center that scores 65 points.

You can't that player doesn't exist

The problem, as I've said many times, is not Tavares per se, but signing any player for $11M to be our 2C when we already had a couple.

Tavares managed 65 points last year playing with a winger who had 40 goals and 98 points. Can you blame Bert for Willy's poor output too?

And I didn't say he was 3C last year, but if he continues to decline he will be 3C calibre next year.

 

[NJG]

Robertson - Matthews - Marner
Domi - Tavares - Nylander
Knies - Minten - Grebyonkin
McMann - Kampf - Reaves

Rielly - Tanev
OEL - McCabe
Benoit - Hakanpaa / Timmins

Woll - Stolarz

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Robertson - Matthews - Marner
Domi - Tavares - Nylander
Knies - Minten - Grebyonkin
McMann - Kampf - Reaves

Rielly - Tanev
OEL - McCabe
Benoit - Hakanpaa / Timmins

Woll - Stolarz

Robertson does not play above Knies

 

[Marshy]

Robertson - Matthews - Marner
Domi - Tavares - Nylander
Knies - Minten - Grebyonkin
McMann - Kampf - Reaves

Rielly - Tanev
OEL - McCabe
Benoit - Hakanpaa / Timmins

Woll - Stolarz

What did we get for Liljegren?

 

[NJG]

Robertson does not play above Knies

He does when you're trying to balance the lines out and be more offensive, which incase you haven't noticed we lacked in the playoffs. Robertson would benefit the most with Matthews & Marner because Marner can get him the puck and teams will have to cover Matthews and Marner at all times which will open up more space for Robertson to do what he's good at.... shooting the puck.

Plus it gives teams another shot threat to worry about, if they also have to cover Robertson at all times because he's a shooting threat that opens more space for Matthews and Marner and saves Matthews and Marner from getting double teamed at times (Matthews already said himself Robertson has the best shot on the team).

When you only have one shooting threat and one guy to get him the puck that's a lot easier to shutdown and deal with as opposed to two shooting threats and a guy that can get them the puck.

What did we get for Liljegren?

Trade him in a package for a top 6. I know we need another top 6 but I'm just making lines based on who we have now.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Big yes, bad no.

Nice thing about lines is they are easily changeable if stuff don't work.

 

[ULF_55]

The problem, as I've said many times, is not Tavares per se, but signing any player for $11M to be our 2C when we already had a couple.

Tavares managed 65 points last year playing with a winger who had 40 goals and 98 points. Can you blame Bert for Willy's poor output too?

And I didn't say he was 3C last year, but if he continues to decline he will be 3C calibre next year.

What is interesting is that Nylander did score 40 goals, and Tavares only had 36 assists.

That put him 30th. for assists for centers.

I'm curious how the 2nd. highest scoring team's best two centers had 38 and 36 assists.
MacKinnon had more than Matthews and Tavares combined.
JT Miller wasn't far behind with 66 assists.

RW:
Rantanen - 62
marner - 59
Nylander - 58

So are the playmakers on the Leafs actually their 2 RWs.

But back to Tavares, he probably should be making similar money to Kadri.

For Clarity, only using Rantanen to show you can have high assists for both center and RW on same team.

 

[conFABulator]

Even with Nylander carrying him, Tavares struggled at 2C last year - he will be even worse this year, and should not be playing higher than 3C.

I have no idea why you would want to put your second-best player on the third line.

I would like to see our top three offensive producers spread across three lines, with lines two and three getting pretty even 5 on 5 ice time. I think balance is important, I think getting good match ups is important, and I think developing some younger guys to contribute is important too. Having guys like Knies, McMann, Holmberg and Robertson get time with good line mayea is part of that process.

 

[notDatsyuk]

What is interesting is that Nylander did score 40 goals, and Tavares only had 36 assists.

That put him 30th. for assists for centers.

I'm curious how the 2nd. highest scoring team's best two centers had 38 and 36 assists.
MacKinnon had more than Matthews and Tavares combined.
JT Miller wasn't far behind with 66 assists.

RW:
Rantanen - 62
marner - 59
Nylander - 58

So are the playmakers on the Leafs actually their 2 RWs.

But back to Tavares, he probably should be making similar money to Kadri.

For Clarity, only using Rantanen to show you can have high assists for both center and RW on same team.

View attachment 891844

The assists issue may be two different things.

In Matty's case, he's a shoot first type, who scores a lot. Marner and any LW he had are not great shots, and are very much pass first types, especially when playing with Matty.

In JT's case, he's also a shoot first type, but not as good a scorer. Nylander has a great shot and wheels, and doesn't necessarily need to be set up to score - a pass from the D is often all it takes.

For both Matty and JT, a lot of plays end with them - either a goal or a save. Add that to the styles of their respective wingers, and I can see the lower assist totals.

Yes, I think both Mitch (and Domi) and Willy are the playmakers on their lines, with Willy having the added feature of scoring. Considering how close their assists totals are and how different their centres' goal totals are, I wonder how Willy would look with a better C.

 

[tmlfan98]

This is what I got for now but obviously a lot could still change. This roster has exactly 333 dollars in cap space:

Domi-Matthews-Grebenkin
Knies-Tavares-Nylander
McMann-Holmberg-Marner
Dewar-Kampf-Jarnkrok
(Reaves)

Rielly-Tanev
McCabe-Liljegren
OEL-Hakanpaa
(Benoit)

Woll
Stolarz

Assumptions are Hakanpaa will be good to go by opening night, and Robertson holding out beyond opening night is a realistic possibility.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

Knies Matthews Marner
McCann Tavares Nylander
Domi Minnten Homberg
Jarnkrok Kampf Reaves

Benoit McCabe
Riely Tanev
OEL Timmins

Woll
Stolarz

 

[NJG]

Still need a top line LW.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Why do people insist on putting Nylander and Tavares together? It's been pretty obvious for a couple of years that, while Willy bolsters JT's numbers, JT does nothing but slow Willy down.

Domi showed that he's about as good with Matthews as Marner is, and JT was barely 2C last year, and will almost certainly be no better than 3C this year, which leaves a hole at 2C.

_____ - Matthews - Domi
_____ - Nylander - _____
_____ - Tavares - _____

For starters. We can try Marner, if he stays, with either Willy or JT, and we have lots of wingers to fill in the blanks.

 

[LeafEgo]

I fully agree. Have we tried Kampf as #3C enough times to be sure that it doesn't work? I mean, he played with Reaves and Gregor last year so we can understand why he didn't put up numbers.

I believe he played well and in a more offensive role at the WC this year. Is there any scenario where he is an underpaid 3C inst and of an overpaid 4C?

Knies Matthews Domi
Robertson Tavares Marner
McMann Kampf Nylander
Dewar Holmberg Jarnkrok

I am not sure this works, but it would be great if it did. Or...

Knies Matthews Domi
Robertson Tavares Marner
Grebenkin Kampf Nylander
McMann Holmberg Jarnkrok
Dewar

Nylander and Kampf together on the third line is crazy. Willy and Matty are our gamebreakers. They need to be put in a position to break games. That's what our offense needs to be built around.

 

[crump]

Knies. Matthews. Domi
McMann. Tavares. Nylander
Cowan. Minten. Marner
Jarnkrok. Kampf. Holmberg/Reeves

Let’s go.

 

[Fogelhund]

It will be interesting to see who the first defensive call ups will be this year, particularly on the right side.

LD Depth

Rielly
McCabe
OEL
Benoit
Mermis
Webber
Rifai
Kokkonen

RD Depth

Tanev
Lilly
Hakanpaa **
Timmins
Niemela
Myers
Mattinen
Villeneuve

It will be particularly interesting to see who might get a callup on the right side, between Niemela, Myers and Mattinen.... Given our RD, it seems likely there will be some injury call up time... noting some of our LD can probably fill in at RD as well.

 

[ACC1224]

It will be interesting to see who the first defensive call ups will be this year, particularly on the right side.

LD Depth

Rielly
McCabe
OEL
Benoit
Mermis
Webber
Rifai
Kokkonen

RD Depth

Tanev
Lilly
Hakanpaa **
Niemela
Myers
Mattinen
Villeneuve

It will be particularly interesting to see who might get a callup on the right side, between Niemela, Myers and Mattinen.... Given our RD, it seems likely there will be some injury call up time... noting some of our LD can probably fill in at RD as well.

Missing Timmins?

 

[Fogelhund]

Missing Timmins?

added in... I really like Timmins too, but I'm not sure where he fits in...

 

[ACC1224]

added in... I really like Timmins too, but I'm not sure where he fits in...

Yeah, I think he's going to be in tough. Shame, good kid.