Line Combos: Lines you expect to see vs what you want to see

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
32,347
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Tampere, Finland
It has been now 2 games with same lines, without any suffling, and it looks pretty good as a whole:

1730986912071.jpeg


Car - Larkin - Kane (takes most o-zone starts)
Berg - Kasp - Tank (takes 2nd most o-zone starts)
Copp - Comp - Ray (takes 3rd most o-zone starts)
Ras - Veleno - Fischer (has taken zero o-zone starts)
 

19 for president

Registered User
Apr 28, 2002
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Cat Larkin Kane
Kasper Compher Raymond
Berggren Copp Tank

Said it in the GDT, I want Kasper and Copp to switch places. Let Marco focus on offense.

It's nice that Copp is putting up some points, but Marco is way more important to the future of this team. Copp can take Kane's shifts at the end of games to get his empty netters.
I also don't love what a Copp-Compher-Ray line does for Ray's offensive production. He may be our best player offensively and now you'd essentially stapled him to a checking line.

In that sense maybe you dump the guy struggling to score/ create changes with Compher and Copp and put Ray with Kasper and Berg. That way Kasper can still develop at Center while being on an offensively minded line. Ray is decent enough defensively that I think this line could work with Berg giving good effort defensively.

Berg-Kasper-Ray
Copp-Compher-Tank
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
32,347
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Tampere, Finland
I also don't love what a Copp-Compher-Ray line does for Ray's offensive production. He may be our best player offensively and now you'd essentially stapled him to a checking line.

Are we building a best possible team-effort for Detroit Red Wings, or best possible career output for Lucas Raymond?

Which one is priority one?
 

19 for president

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Apr 28, 2002
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Are we building a best possible team-effort for Detroit Red Wings, or best possible career output for Lucas Raymond?

Which one is priority one?
I don't think you can look at one exclusively from the other. You pay Raymond 8 million to put up points. Significantly hampering the offensive output of your best or 2nd best (Larks) offensive player is probably not in a teams best interest long term. You only have so much cap space so you need the guys to score that you pay to score. I'm not advocating for a don't play defense cherry pick approach but you need to utilize players in a way that optimizes their output.

This isn't to say if a scoring guy is totally bombing out don't give him the ole Scotty treatment and stick him in a checking role to get him back attuned with other aspects of the game. Ray hasn't been bombing though. (Why I'm not opposed to swapping him with Tank, who has been struggling)

Right now its semi working because Copp is on a little bit of a tear offensively, but historically he is streaky at best. If that line stops scoring it is a problem because 1 scoring line NHL teams don't typically win. If the Berg-Kasper-Tank line takes off offensively, fine I get the team over the individual line, but until you have a semi consistent 2nd scoring line I think you see if you do what you can to develop some additional scoring chemistry.
 

Henkka

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Jan 31, 2004
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Tampere, Finland
I don't think you can look at one exclusively from the other. You pay Raymond 8 million to put up points. Significantly hampering the offensive output of your best or 2nd best (Larks) offensive player is probably not in a teams best interest long term. You only have so much cap space so you need the guys to score that you pay to score. I'm not advocating for a don't play defense cherry pick approach but you need to utilize players in a way that optimizes their output.

This isn't to say if a scoring guy is totally bombing out don't give him the ole Scotty treatment and stick him in a checking role to get him back attuned with other aspects of the game. Ray hasn't been bombing though. (Why I'm not opposed to swapping him with Tank, who has been struggling)

Right now its semi working because Copp is on a little bit of a tear offensively, but historically he is streaky at best. If that line stops scoring it is a problem because 1 scoring line NHL teams don't typically win. If the Berg-Kasper-Tank line takes off offensively, fine I get the team over the individual line, but until you have a semi consistent 2nd scoring line I think you see if you do what you can to develop some additional scoring chemistry.

Patrik Kane is now working 10-times better than opposite ways, and Raymond is maybe missing a bit. But overall, it's A LOT better this way.

You don't have to any favors for any players, based on their paychecks.

You do what is best for the team.
 

Gniwder

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Oct 12, 2009
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Bellingham, WA
I also don't love what a Copp-Compher-Ray line does for Ray's offensive production. He may be our best player offensively and now you'd essentially stapled him to a checking line.

In that sense maybe you dump the guy struggling to score/ create changes with Compher and Copp and put Ray with Kasper and Berg. That way Kasper can still develop at Center while being on an offensively minded line. Ray is decent enough defensively that I think this line could work with Berg giving good effort defensively.

Berg-Kasper-Ray
Copp-Compher-Tank
Probably an easier switch since nobody has to change positions, but I see Kasper getting more assists and no goals.

Patrik Kane is now working 10-times better than opposite ways, and Raymond is maybe missing a bit. But overall, it's A LOT better this way.

You don't have to any favors for any players, based on their paychecks.

You do what is best for the team.
The issue is that Larkin is the only center that can drive scoring. Same as last year, and the year before, etc, etc. It's a one line team until Stevie gets a 2C. With 3 top line wingers, one of them gets left out and has to play with Compher. I'd like to see someone other than Copp on the wing though.
 

19 for president

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Apr 28, 2002
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Patrik Kane is now working 10-times better than opposite ways, and Raymond is maybe missing a bit. But overall, it's A LOT better this way.

You don't have to any favors for any players, based on their paychecks.

You do what is best for the team.
Oh I don't disagree with removing Ray from the top line and trying Kane there. It definitely works better than the opposite. Kane cannot drive a line anymore.

With that said though, I think putting Ray with Berg and Kasper and Tank with Compher & Copp has the potential for better offense overall while not significantly hindering the defensive aspects of either line.

It might also encourage Ray's goal scoring a bit more. When he plays with DBC and Larkin he tends to defer more. He still puts up solid points, but I'd like to see him get back to driving and shooting a bit more like the end of last year. Berg is a more traditional play maker and Kasper can help with some dirty work and around the net goals.

Probably an easier switch since nobody has to change positions, but I see Kasper getting more assists and no goals.

I could actually see him in a Bert like role on a line with Ray and Berg. He's going to be a more goal mouth/ cleanup goal guy with those two, but I don't think that is a bad thing. He won't have to cheat as much back to cover defensively for Ray as he does for Tank.
 
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Gniwder

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Oct 12, 2009
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I could actually see him in a Bert like role on a line with Ray and Berg. He's going to be a more goal mouth/ cleanup goal guy with those two, but I don't think that is a bad thing. He won't have to cheat as much back to cover defensively for Ray as he does for Tank.
If you want to see him in a role like Bert, he needs to be playing wing, not center. He's too defensively oriented to camp out at the crease as a center. That's the reason why Copp is getting goals, playing on the wing allows him to camp out at the crease so other players can deflect it off his skates. Playing on the wing will also utilize Kasper's forechecking ability which I expect will be as good as Bert's.
 

odin1981

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Mar 8, 2013
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Canton Mi
I think Kasper is coming along, but I'd like to see something around Ras/Kasper/Kane or Copp(Compher)/Kasper/Kane at some point. Kane might be getting a little long in the tooth, but if he is paired with younger or prime aged players they can do the heavy lifting of the line. Might be able to pick him up a little but to get him going more like last year.

Taresenko I think should be on the third line since between him, Kane, and Raymond he is probably last of the three in fulfilling a scoring winger role. Raymond isn't a pure scoring winger obviously more so a 2 way winger.
 
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Lampedampe

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Feb 26, 2015
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Cat Larkin Kane
Kasper Compher Raymond
Berggren Copp Tank

Said it in the GDT, I want Kasper and Copp to switch places. Let Marco focus on offense.

It's nice that Copp is putting up some points, but Marco is way more important to the future of this team. Copp can take Kane's shifts at the end of games to get his empty netters.

Yeah i like this, stack the top-6.

When Motte is back i'd consider benching Berggren and putting Ras on the 3rd. Then you have a more defensively minded 3rd line, where we might see some occasional scoring off skates and butts.

4th line will just be an energy-line.
 
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Snuggs

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Jun 24, 2018
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Claim RHD Dante Fabbro.

Red Wings trade F Jonatan Berggren, F Elmer Soderblom, and a 2025 4th round pick.
Bruins trade C Trent Federic

Alex DeBrincat – (C) Dylan Larkin – Patrick Kane
Marco Kasper – J.T. Compher – Lucas Raymond
(A) Andrew Copp – Trent Federic – Vladimir Tarasenko
Christian Fischer – Joe Veleno – Michael Rasmussen
* Tyler Motte

Simon Edvinsson – Mortiz Seider
(A) Ben Chiarot – Dante Fabbro
Albert Johansson – Erik Gustavsson

* Justin Holl
* Jeff Petry

Cam Talbot
Alex Lyon
 
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wingsfannn919191

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Oct 3, 2024
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SHL 5
Edvinsson Seider
Berggren Kasper Raymond
How about do something different

Yes suggested the berggren kasper raymond line last night . We need to try different things out

Put kane/debrincat on the 3rd line at this point short term . Theyll play against team's bottom lines and should benefit them

What we're doing now's not working

Claim RHD Dante Fabbro.

Red Wings trade F Jonatan Berggren, F Elmer Soderblom, and a 2025 4th round pick.
Bruins trade C Trent Federic

Alex DeBrincat – (C) Dylan Larkin – Patrick Kane
Marco Kasper – J.T. Compher – Lucas Raymond
(A) Andrew Copp – Trent Federic – Vladimir Tarasenko
Christian Fischer – Joe Veleno – Michael Rasmussen
* Tyler Motte

Simon Edvinsson – Mortiz Seider
(A) Ben Chiarot – Dante Fabbro
Albert Johansson – Erik Gustavsson

* Justin Holl
* Jeff Petry

Cam Talbot
Alex Lyon
We have our 3c in danielson up soon
 
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lilidk

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Mar 4, 2008
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Yes suggested the berggren kasper raymond line last night . We need to try different things out

Put kane/debrincat on the 3rd line at this point short term . Theyll play against team's bottom lines and should benefit them

What we're doing now's not working


We have our 3c in danielson up soon
Then trade Danielson for top 4 prospect defansman. We have Kasper, Danielson, Lombardi and Finnie for 2or 3rd line center. Also we have Rasmussen and Veleno
 

HisNoodliness

Good things come to those who wait
Jun 29, 2014
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Toronto
I think on defense it is time to roll something like:
Edvinsson-Seider
AlJo-Petry
Chia-Holl

Chiarot and Petry just don't work together. AlJo has been great at getting controlled exits and the Chiarot-Petry pairing struggles mightily exiting their end. Will the pairing be a mess in their own end? Absolutely. Are we being unfair to a rookie AlJo expecting him to cover for Petry? Absolutely. But both Chiarot and Petry like to hold on to the puck for too long. Both like to make risky pinches. Neither can pass the puck and neither can skate it out of our end. So together, they can't get the puck up ice. AlJo is good at that. AlJo is good at covering a risky partner's mistakes. And AlJo doesn't hog the puck so his forwards actually get a chance to play. In all of these ways he is a much better stylistic fit to be Petry's partner than Chiarot is.

Plus then we can get Chiarot some baby soft minutes so that he can run his risky game against players that can't punish it. When he is better than his opponents, he can be a good player. There's just not many NHL players that he's better than anymore. He and Holl would also be physically imposing and could be used as a bruiser pairing against other team's dirtiest players. Tom Wilson crushes Raymond? Send Chiarot and Holl out to put him through the glass. If we're lucky, they'll be good enough in easy minutes that we can get rid of one/both of them without having to pay to do it (a pipe dream I know).
 
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wingsfannn919191

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Oct 3, 2024
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Then trade Danielson for top 4 prospect defansman. We have Kasper, Danielson, Lombardi and Finnie for 2or 3rd line center. Also we have Rasmussen and Veleno
Veleno is as good as gone and Rasmussen will be headed towards 4th line unless everyone we drafted busts which wouldnt be good lol

I'd trade danielson but it better be a good prospect coming back considering we wasted a top 10 pick ... not super high on him but I recall bedard saying hes the toughest player he played against or some sh*t like that + I cant really see yzerman moving him since he took him

I'd have np moving top 10 protected 1sts for a young dman though not sold yet on wallinder buium filling top 4 left side

Edvinsson seider
? Pellikka

We need someone .... I've recently heard a podcast where this Schaefer kid is suppose to be really good next draft ... just saying lol
 
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lilidk

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Mar 4, 2008
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Veleno is as good as gone and Rasmussen will be headed towards 4th line unless everyone we drafted busts which wouldnt be good lol

I'd trade danielson but it better be a good prospect coming back considering we wasted a top 10 pick ... not super high on him but I recall bedard saying hes the toughest player he played against or some sh*t like that + I cant really see yzerman moving him since he took him

I'd have np moving top 10 protected 1sts for a young dman though not sold yet on wallinder buium filling top 4 left side

Edvinsson seider
? Pellikka

We need someone .... I've recently heard a podcast where this Schaefer kid is suppose to be really good next draft ... just saying lol
Schaefer is going to be worse scenario top 10. We aren't going to draft top 10,I hope so not.
 

TheOctopusKid

Registered User
Sep 24, 2010
1,478
1,733
Despite the oddly 'meh' start to the season, our record is... shockingly not horrific given the sheer number of very good teams we've played and how dominated the Wings have looked at times.

The team has made some necessary moves, most noticeably getting Kasper up which allowed them to pair Copp and Compher together alongside Raymond/Kane and break up arguably the slowest, least defensively sound line of Off-hand Tarasenko, Compher, Kane. Additionally, Berggren has been buzzing and the obvious chemistry between him and Kasper makes this callup and line combo doubly important and beneficial.

Debrincat - Larkin - Kane
Copp - Compher - Raymond
Berggren - Kasper - Tarasenko
Motte - Veleno - Rasmussen

The only thing in that mix truthfully that seems really plausibly moveable in that mix is Tarasenko. If this doesn't click, I'm not sure what if any role he has in this group and shipping him out to a team looking for a cheap, secondary scoring option seems like the best possible path forward with him and either trying a banger like Rasmussen to clear space or maybe a callup of Mazur to complete the AHL line, unsure but the Forwards seem to be what they are at this point.

What is still a mess outside of our top pair, is our defense.

Edvinsson -Seider ...fine. Everything we want and need.
Chiarot - Petry is an utter disaster. Chiarot does not seem to be able to break his habit of making an ill-timed slapper that if he misses, the entire team is out of position and it tilts into an odd-man break OR headhunt a hit and leaves the crease unprotected and he gets backdoored. He doesn't do either all the time, but enough where you arent surprised to see how a goal against happened. Petry is just old, slow, and unable to keep up. He needs to be put in the pressbox.

The third pair I think can be manned by Johansson and Holl. Holl suffers from exactly the same problem as Chiarot but isnt' as physical or as talented: he tries to do too much and ends up creating an odd-man rush the other way, or he ends up chasing or making a ill-advised risky pass. Having a partner like Johansson will keep him covered, positionally in align as Johansson will constantly be moving to adjust where Holl isn't, and in the limited minutes of the 3rd pair, could be very effective.

That leaves Chiarot on 2nd LHD - with....nothing viable.

The Wings need to make some kind of move to shore up the 2nd Pair RHD. It just sticks out as this fairly significant hole to land a true, stay-at-home, defensively minded RHD who can carry a pair. I know there was talk in the offseason targeting Roy and the rumors of the Trouba trade, etc. and I think they tried to spot fill with a rotate cast of depth D, and honestly nothing has work to this point. This team looks WAY better when we can lessen some of the load off of Seider and Edvinsson, or if we are caught between line changes and home ice match ups. Having a Chiarot + RHD as a shutdown pair, and being able to use Johansson and Holl exclusively as a 3rd Pair, this defense looks serviceable.

Who is that guy? I'm not sure whose actually available at this point. I was on the Trouba train at high retained or a chunk of offsetting salary going back - I still think 4-5M a year 2yr Trouba on a 2nd pair RHD is a great fit. He's a captain level veteran, who is still Top 10 in blocks, hits, plays a ton, still a 30pt guy but someone you could drop in there next to Chiarot and help lead that Defense. I would be all for that. If there or other available options for that kind of player on the 2nd Pair RHD, I think that is basically the only potential option to make this team better this season. I don't think Trouba will be moved till the offseason, but there might exist the chance to grab something similar during the season, who knows.
 

heyfolks

Registered User
Apr 30, 2007
2,076
783
Oh, if change is what is sought, try:

Centers:

Larkin
Danielson
Kasper
Copp
 

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