Proposal: Lindholm to Canucks for Hunter Brustewicz +

[Johnsie19]

Apply that logic to Lindholm too then. Canucks are trading for this year's Lindholm whom is 29 years old, 15 goal/54 point 2 way expiring C looking for a long term big money contract.

2-way is generous even haha

Firstly Lindholm is playing on a rebuilding team not the top offensive team in the league. Secondly, a two way center has a lot of value. If Lindholm was just a 54 (55 now) point winger, he's value would be much lower. Realistically, Lindholm on a good team is a 65 point two, 30 goal, shut down, second line center. Very valuable. Like Denault. The ability to shut down top centers in the playoffs is massive.

The fact the top team in the West sees Kuzmenko as expendable says a lot about his value. He could have value to a rebuilding team that can pump up his offensive numbers, but that's not something the Flames are good at. It'd be career suicide for Kuzmenko. The flames expect two way play from all their players and offensive specialists don't succeed.

Lindholm isn't really a two way guy. At least not from any model i've seen.

 

[Bond]

2-way is generous even haha

Lindholm isn't really a two way guy. At least not from any model i've seen.

Elias Lindholm finishes second to Patrice Bergeron in Selke Trophy voting

No Calgary Flame has ever won the Frank J. Selke Trophy, but @Elias Li...

flamesnation.ca

lol you don't know what you are talking about

 

[Johnsie19]

I mean you understand it's factual not opinion that he gets Ozone starts and soft matchups? You can look these things up on hockey reference for free. You understand your coach directly talked about it just 2 weeks ago? I'd take any player on your current roster ahead of Kuzmenko if that clarifies things for you.

Obviously you want your top players out there for Ozone deployment. So I don't really know what point you're making there. Crosby starts 70% of the time in the ozone. McDavid 63%, Kucherov 73%.

I am interested in what you are talking about with soft matchups though? He played on the top line so he basically would have got the same matchups as Pettersson which would likely be the other teams shut down line or top line depending on how they play it. Where are you getting that stat from that he plays only against weak lines?

 

[krutovsdonut]

lindholm is overkill for the canuck's needs. he's much too expensive an asset to stick on pp2 and play 18 minutes a night on a second line lacking elite wingers, which is where he slots in for us.

and i see no chance we can re-sign him even if we want to.

so no way would i pay the "in division" premium of an already high price to get him.

 

[Johnsie19]

Elias Lindholm finishes second to Patrice Bergeron in Selke Trophy voting

No Calgary Flame has ever won the Frank J. Selke Trophy, but @Elias Li...

flamesnation.ca

lol you don't know what you are talking about

This is what I'm looking at. Dom's model says he's a -1 defensive rating too. Selke voting tends to come down to reputation and +/-. He was on a dominant line got too much Selke love, a few votes trickled in the next yrs too (reputation) and he likely never gets another Selke vote.

Edit: not sure if the images are coming through but just look at the jfresh models for Lindholm if they don't. They have him as 31st and 32nd percentile defensive rating for last yr and the yr before.

lindholm is overkill for the canuck's needs. he's much too expensive an asset to stick on pp2 and play 18 minutes a night on a second line lacking elite wingers, which is where he slots in for us.

and i see no chance we can re-sign him even if we want to.

so no way would i pay the "in division" premium of an already high price to get him.

He'd easily be on PP1

 

[Bond]

Edit: not sure if the images are coming through but just look at the jfresh models for Lindholm if they don't. They have him as 31st and 32nd percentile defensive rating for last yr and the yr before.

JFresh even acknowledges his model is likely wrong because of how it runs. Maybe try watching the guy play.

Lindholm is where we might have to be a little creative or permissive. His line played together so much this year, which means the model has to go off of their small time apart to work out defensive "credit." It gives most of it to Tkachuk. I'm not sure if he deserves it.

 

[Bond]

lindholm is overkill for the canuck's needs. he's much too expensive an asset to stick on pp2 and play 18 minutes a night on a second line lacking elite wingers, which is where he slots in for us.

and i see no chance we can re-sign him even if we want to.

so no way would i pay the "in division" premium of an already high price to get him.

Yeah. Avs or jets make more sense

 

[Johnsie19]

JFresh even acknowledges his model is likely wrong because of how it runs. Maybe try watching the guy play.

Lindholm is where we might have to be a little creative or permissive. His line played together so much this year, which means the model has to go off of their small time apart to work out defensive "credit." It gives most of it to Tkachuk. I'm not sure if he deserves it.

To be honest I don't know the inner workings of these models. I don't necessarily take them as gospal but they definitely tend to be pretty accurate. And if you compare them against different models and the data comes out in a similar way, that definitely says a lot.

I watch him play a fair bit. Never thought of him as a shut down guy. More an offensive guy with a heavy shot. Whereas you watch a guy like Eriksson Ek play and it's immediately obvious he is very difficult to play against.

 

[Bond]

To be honest I don't know the inner workings of these models. I don't necessarily take them as gospal but they definitely tend to be pretty accurate. And if you compare them against different models and the data comes out in a similar way, that definitely says a lot.

I watch him play a fair bit. Never thought of him as a shut down guy. More an offensive guy with a heavy shot. Whereas you watch a guy like Eriksson Ek play and it's immediately obvious he is very difficult to play against.

Well you can have an opinion and be wrong haha. I’ll leave you to have it.

 

[Uberpecker]

I'd do sthg. around Krebs. We'd need RHd back though, so probably Willander with pieces added as needed.

Tbs, Vancouver players Myers on their 2nd pairing so they seem to need RHD just as bad. Maybe not the best fit.

 

[LemonSauceD]

I'd do sthg. around Krebs. We'd need RHd back though, so probably Willander.

Willander is not for sale Lol

 

[Peter Griffin]

I'd do sthg. around Krebs. We'd need RHd back though, so probably Willander.

You must be Buffalo’s version of M2B.

 

[wetcoast]

This is what I'm looking at. Dom's model says he's a -1 defensive rating too. Selke voting tends to come down to reputation and +/-. He was on a dominant line got too much Selke love, a few votes trickled in the next yrs too (reputation) and he likely never gets another Selke vote.

Well who are we to argue with Dom eh?

Edit: not sure if the images are coming through but just look at the jfresh models for Lindholm if they don't. They have him as 31st and 32nd percentile defensive rating for last yr and the yr before.


He'd easily be on PP1

Really he'd be on the Canucks #1 PP?

Who would he replace?

 

[Johnsie19]

Well you can have an opinion and be wrong haha. I’ll leave you to have it.

The data would say I'm right!

Well who are we to argue with Dom eh?

Really he'd be on the Canucks #1 PP?

Who would he replace?

It's Dom and Jfresh. Certainly if you have an argument make it.

He'd replace Kuzmenko

 

[wetcoast]

It's Dom and Jfresh. Certainly if you have an argument make it.

I don't need to as I can watch the player and learn more than a model spits out.

He'd replace Kuzmenko

3 centers on the first PP unit?

But that being said Kuzmenko is getting gifted minutes due to his contract not production or actual play.

 

[Johnsie19]

I don't need to as I can watch the player and learn more than a model spits out.


3 centers on the first PP unit?

But that being said Kuzmenko is getting gifted minutes due to his contract not production or actual play.

I don't know if I trust your eyes as much as the models though haha

Is it bad to have 3 centers on one pp? All of them have wing experience anyway.

I'd agree on Kuz but getting Lindholm you'd def wanna try to utilize his heavy shot on the PP. Kuzy would be out the door if Lindholm did come in likely too.

 

[Bond]

I don't know if I trust your eyes as much as the models though haha

Is it bad to have 3 centers on one pp? All of them have wing experience anyway.

I'd agree on Kuz but getting Lindholm you'd def wanna try to utilize his heavy shot on the PP. Kuzy would be out the door if Lindholm did come in likely too.

JFresh already said his model was likely broken lol. You are in the minority on this one but it doesn't really matter because he'll take his 'reputation' and get valued as a two way guy in a trade. One way guys don't get second place selke votes

 

[RasmusAndersson]

2-way is generous even haha


Lindholm isn't really a two way guy. At least not from any model i've seen.

That is one of the most oblivious takes I’ve ever seen.

 

[Double Dion]

That is one of the most oblivious takes I’ve ever seen.

Consider the source. He thinks Kuzmenko is a super valuable asset.

 

[RasmusAndersson]

To be honest I don't know the inner workings of these models. I don't necessarily take them as gospal but they definitely tend to be pretty accurate. And if you compare them against different models and the data comes out in a similar way, that definitely says a lot.

I watch him play a fair bit. Never thought of him as a shut down guy. More an offensive guy with a heavy shot. Whereas you watch a guy like Eriksson Ek play and it's immediately obvious he is very difficult to play against.

Say you have no idea what you’re talking about without saying you have no idea what you’re talking about.

My god. Lindholm is a stud 2 way C, just watch him play. Kuzmenko is a good scoring winger but he has no value cause his contract. Same reason guys like Paccioretty and Bjorkstrand and Reilly Smith went for next to nothing despite having a much longer resume of success.

If you think Lindholm is too expensive fine, I think he’d be too expensive for you guys too and if I were Canucks GM I wouldn’t be willing to pay that much for a rental when you guys aren’t a perennial contender yet. But don’t say he isn’t a 2 way C who only got multiple top-10 selke finishes based on reputation and then use a model you admittedly don’t know anything about as proof.

 

[Johnsie19]

JFresh already said his model was likely broken lol. You are in the minority on this one but it doesn't really matter because he'll take his 'reputation' and get valued as a two way guy in a trade. One way guys don't get second place selke votes

Can you link me to where Jfresh said his model is broken? Something tells me thats not entirely accurate.

I've looked at Jfresh, Andy and Rono, Dom and evolving hockey, thats 4 different models and they all suggest Lindholm is a below average defensive player.

I think if anything it shows you the power of narratives when voting for NHL awards. Especially the Selke. NHL writing got ahhhed by that amazing line the flames had a couple seasons back and wanted to vote one of them for Selke.

I think he'll return a fair bit. Something around what Horvat got. I would say his value should be slightly less than Horvat who is also not a great defensive player but is prob slightly better offensively and was having a career year.

 

[Ciao]

I really like Brustewicz. I like the 1st round pick too. I'm not at all interested in Kuzmenko. If you're dumping a bad contract on us I'd like compensation for that. I'd also like another piece for Lindholm. Something like this:

2024 1st round pick
Brustewicz
2025 2nd round pick

I don't think Brustewicz will ever score at a high level, but he could be a 3C for a long time. He has a motor on him and is a good skater. He shoots in like Tanev though, he'll never score in the NHL.

AFIK Brustewicz is a defenceman.

Are you sure you're thinking of the right player here?

 

[Johnsie19]

Say you have no idea what you’re talking about without saying you have no idea what you’re talking about.

My god. Lindholm is a stud 2 way C, just watch him play. Kuzmenko is a good scoring winger but he has no value cause his contract. Same reason guys like Paccioretty and Bjorkstrand and Reilly Smith went for next to nothing despite having a much longer resume of success.

If you think Lindholm is too expensive fine, I think he’d be too expensive for you guys too and if I were Canucks GM I wouldn’t be willing to pay that much for a rental when you guys aren’t a perennial contender yet. But don’t say he isn’t a 2 way C who only got multiple top-10 selke finishes based on reputation and then use a model you admittedly don’t know anything about as proof.

I watch him a fair bit. Canucks play Calgary all the time. I don't see a two way stud that you think. And the data back that up. He has many similarities to Horvat in fact. Great shot, great on the draw, and both had an unwarranted reputation as being good defensively when neither are.

I used 4 different models. It's not my job to break down the inner workings of each model. They're put together by data analysts to help show the general audience the value of players. If you think you know why specifically one of them is wrong in the case of Lindholm I'm open to that but you can't just claim the models are worthless because i haven't studied them personally.

Your argument is that writers on the other side of the country are going to know who's the best defensive player on a team they probably rarely if ever watch. The Selke is a reputational, narrative driven award.

In terms of value, OP isn't that far off really. It'll be something around what Horvat got. His value I think is slightly less than what Horvat's was last season (based on the season they were having in the trade yr) but return always comes down to need and negotiating prowess.

 

[Double Dion]

AFIK Brustewicz is a defenceman.

Are you sure you're thinking of the right player here?

Yes, see my prior post on this. Autocorrect on the phone. It's why I compared him to Tanev.

 

[innitfam]

Honest question, why is kuzmenko in every trade proposal? He's a 40 goal scorer so van should want to keep him but he has also been scratched multiple times this season so maybe he sucks.

What's his deal and why do nucks fans see him as someone worth a lot in trade value but also expendable enough to include in every proposal?

Getting Halak, Ryder, and a 2nd vibes

If the Canucks are adding an impact player, they need cap to go the other way, none of the other high earning forwards make sense to trade currently.