Post-Game Talk: Lightning @ Leafs | No guts, no heart, no playoffs ?

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Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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Very well written post. I'm in agreement that after Reimer called out the team after the Florida game he needed to back it up himself...and he didn't.

Just of curiosity what are his stats since then?

that's a job for zeke. I can recall many a thing, but hockey numbers aren't one of them :laugh:

if I can recall off what was said on tsn.

he's 11-11 and something
he's let in over 15 first period goals (so now more than Bernier) [it was 31 between the 2]
his goal average is over 3.00 - and again - most of it is in the first period.

Now - the argument is going to be "but the Leafs start slow."
which I can't explain, and it pisses me off and that needs to be addressed. BUT. if I can recall correctly - a lot of those goals were after the break with Bernier? (like the Islander game, the NY gong-showy game etc) and a few sprinkled here or there - and Reimer's it's just "BOOM!" down two nothing right off the bat. so where as Bernier lets in ONE Reimer lets' in more than one so it's now a 2 goal deficit not 1.

Bernier's issue [and this was reported to us before he got here] - is the third period. He tends to drift off. And he's been a lot better than that. AND before people say anything - I've torn Bernier a strip because of it.

Bernier has had his gaffes and his uberly soft goals - and I'm going to give him a pass because he's finding his starters legs [to quote Jamie McClennan] if it's still an issue next year the pass is gone.
 

Bad Goalie

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
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Goal or no goal, that's now what Reimer looks like when he's on his game. He played better in Detroit. With that said, people unfairly put Reimer down because they're comparing our two goalies. Bernier plays behind the exact same team and he has superior numbers while shouldering more of the workload this season. It's not a reason for people to put Reimer down as much as they do but Bernier being the better goalie and managing results where Reimer isn't able to seems to be how many justify the hard criticisms against Reimer.

"Bernier plays behind the exact same team and he has superior numbers"

.910 Save% vs .925 Save%. Not exactly what I'd call "superior numbers". .015 percentage points better is how many more goals on how many shots? You'd have to do some real math here. They aren't the same in games won, but they're not head and shoulders apart when you really come down to it. There are many other culprits in this mix that need a seat in that trundle under the bus you guys are throwing Reims. Unfortunately, except for Clarkson, who is not one of the D-men who constantly screw up in their own end or pinching in the other zone to surrender odd man rushes but he is one of the forwards who need a map to play in their own end, they don't seem to be the same rat bait.

Reimer will probably be happier somewhere else so looks like both sides will win if this trade works out. His absence won't fix the other issues just pointed out and goalies left in this wasteland eventually all burn out. You can't do it night after night year after year. Ask some of the real good tenders who've worn the Blue Leaf in the past 40 years. Toronto higher ups haven't really cared in many years. The seats are always full. Why should they worry. You'll all gripe, but you'll be back next year. Ka-ching Ka-ching.
 
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Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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Reimer's "bad year" only started a few games ago. I'm not a fan but let's not act like he's been bad until recently, and the team in front hasn't been good (Red Wings game was winnable imo though)

Reimer's only recently started playing games. Before the Olympic break he was virtually buried for being terrible.
 

JackJ

Registered User
Feb 7, 2012
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Reimer's Save % is .910 and Bernier's is .925. You do the math. This is not a drastic difference, but I guess someone has to go under the bus. Might as well toss Reimer. It couldn't be Carlyle's deadfast SYSTEM.
It couldn't be a team that just seems not to get it.

Naa its Reimer. He's terrible and the numbers prove it.

Bernier 2.61
Reimer 3.29

Bernier gives us playoff caliber goaltending instead of Reimers bottom three.

Up against team GAA it's the difference between 14th and 29th:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/teamstats.ht...&sort=avgGoalsAgainstPerGame&viewName=summary
 

Bad Goalie

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Jan 2, 2014
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there's too many "we're being mean to Reimer, we're jackasses, blah blah" to quote, so i'm just going to use these two for my template.


I personally believe, Reimer was never really going to be "the goaltender" in Toronto. He was never going to reach Eagle or Cujo or Cat status. [we sure like our animals]. Ever. Which means, Reimer was always going to be eventually traded for some assets or parlay into a better situation draft wise.

Why, Daisy? What ever do you mean? [You're asking yourself].
Well - simple.

Exhibit A: Luongo. You can not possibly tell me that all the rumours [and they were reaching JVR for Schenn velocity, basically -this close to actually happening] was to 'surround' Reimer with experienced backup. Luongo was coming here to play. The end. and it never happened

Exhibit B: Kippersof. And the only reason why that didn't happen was because Kipper was pretty much out of the league at that point anyway, and said he wouldn't report to Toronto

Exhibit C: Bernier. Nonis doesn't do "flash in the pan" moves. You can even argue his two flash in the pan moves were Clarkson [and look how that turned out] and Bolland [ditto]. The Bernier deal took ten months to complete. Which means, the minute Nonis got hired as the GM, his first inclination was to get another goaltender. And you don't pick up Bernier who went to HIS GM and asked for a trade to be a starter - if he's not going to be your starter. Which also means - in the 3 years [11 when he came up, last year, and this summer], Nonis did not like what he saw. The end.

zeke [and other people] have put up the comparison numbers between Bernier and Reimer. Ever month Reimer's numbers have been declining. Both goaltenders are facing the same putrid defensive core. Reimer even had the advantage of playing in front of that putrid defensive core. But his numbers are poorer. The. end.

And truthfully - I'm sorry. If his play is poor because he hasn't been on a roll - fine. but the minute people start saying 'his confidence is shot because of competition, or whatever." I personally don't want that person on my team as a goaltender. He's not a rookie. he's not even a sophmore now. It's not anyone's job [nor is it the fanbase] to pump his tires because he's feeling a little down on himself for not playing better. HIS response should be - in my estimation - is to play mind blowingly amazing. and you can say that's not fair, or that's not right - but that's life in this league, and that's life in this market.

Reimer himself drew the line in the sand. I will go to bat for every single one of these players - but when you decide to declare Waterloo - you better be sure. Franson did it with his contract demands, and I've torn him a new one. Reimer in December - called the team out. It was after the Florida game, and I even said it to several people, he was mad, he practically swore. And then i said - I don't think that was the right thing for him to do because now he's got to back it up.

And the next game he played was Phoenix. and that was the game he let in that BRUTAL wrap around goal and that equally brutal shortsided goal. And the Leafs won in the shootout. [they were leading]. and then he played the third game in a row against the wings, and let in the same brutal wraparound, that crazy puck that went off his head down his chest and into the net, and the other one. and then he gets pulled, and he's all "glaring" at Randy - even though he was crap.

His next game was Carolina [and I gave him credit because that was the game the Leafs just flat out decided they weren't even going to try. but that was also when we started to hear that the leafs were suffering from the flu and I forgave everyone for that effort, but even then Jay ripped the team a new one, and then the Washington game happened then they went on that tear].

after Carolina he won in Colorado.

After Colarado he came into the Dallas game [Bernier was pulled] and he looked WORSE. [and the team decided not to show up] and then the Winnipeg game happened and he looked bru.tal.

After that he didn't play until the Columbus game [loss - but he looked decent] and then SJ [brutal, but so did the whole team], and then LA, where he was a star, and then 'just okay' in Washington, Detroit and tonight.

Now Bernier- has called out his team many a times. [it's actually funny how many times Bernier's done it], regarding the defensive play. But there have been times where he's also said HIS play isn't good. He's pissed off if he lets in 3 games a night. [and has said more than once, some games he's actually surprised when he's told/sees that the short total is what it is because it didn't feel/seem like it, vs saying how tired he is or there were a lot of shots.

That's off the top of my head - if I missed a game, or something I'll stand corrected. But you can't call out the team, and play like that, and then expect people to go "oh well, you know last year, he did this, so he deserves that. Well, guess what. we need him to do it now - and he's not. Clarkson is getting torn to shreds because he's simply useless out there - and he had two great seasons and no one wants to hear it, or will give the guy even the glimmer of hope he can even duplicate 1/2 of what he did. Nope. it's all of "Clarkson sucks."

but it's supposed to be Reimer :thumbu: right now simply due to the fact of what he did last year. that doesn't make sense to me.

Goalies are and always have been sort of head cases. If you want them to be there for you, you have to be there for them. You have to know how to coax them without obviously coddling them. Great coaches always get more from their okay keepers than coaches who do what the head case considers embarrassing or humiliating him. Also, most of them go into shells when they are yelled at, criticized, blamed. I think you will see Carlyle in most of these negative lights.
A guy like Babcock seems to be in the other guys shoes.
 

LeafOfBread

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Feb 25, 2010
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Daisy, Reimer has said about himself time and time again that he needs to be better and often takes the blame on himself, more than Bernier does. I don't think it's fair that he calls out the team pretty much ONCE and you hold it against him, yet Bernier has done it multiple times.

This team deserves to be called out by everyone, they can't ever put in a consistent effort.
 

LeafOfBread

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Feb 25, 2010
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Rob Longley ‏@longleysunsport 2m
Joffrey Lupul on poor #Leafs defensive effort. "We"re getting exposed."

No really?

vtOS5.gif
 

Bad Goalie

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Jan 2, 2014
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It is actually a considerable difference.
Bernier's save % puts him in the 7th ranked slot amongst all league goalies. Reimers .910 save % puts him somewhere around #25 or so.

That's because the starting goaltenders in the league have very similar numbers. They are all in the .900s. It means they all stop 9.something of every 10 shots. It's the number of shots faced in each game that determines the avg. number of goals surrendered. Once in a while they give up 0 or 1 and then once in a while they give up 4 or 5. In the long hall it's 1-3 out of 30 or less shots per game, thus .900+. Only real bad tenders fall below that number and they usually don't hang around long or simply play for horrendous teams.

What separates the best form the worst is only a goal per game here and there along the way during the season. They can make a difference here or there, but they are not the difference maker over the long haul of a season. The rest of the team comes into the final analysis.

I've read all season how Crawford isn't really all that good. It's the Hawks that make him look good. Hear the same crap about Rask and many claim that's how Marty got all his records. Personally, I don't buy it. They are simply the ones that give up those 3-4 less than the others due to a large part from a team that takes care of business.

Rant all you want, but the Leafs are not playing good hockey. If you want to blame Reimer, go ahead. That team won't get where you want to go until they become defensively responsible and Carlyle's system with the type of players you have won't get it done. Run and gun isn't the answer either. There is a system suited to your team's strengths that can get 'er done in both ends. You need another coach to install it. Carlyle is locked in his playing days and that system doesn't work today, at least not with your personnel.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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Daisy, Reimer has said about himself time and time again that he needs to be better and often takes the blame on himself, more than Bernier does. I don't think it's fair that he calls out the team pretty much ONCE and you hold it against him, yet Bernier has done it multiple times.

This team deserves to be called out by everyone, they can't ever put in a consistent effort.

nope - I don't hold it against him - (i wrote more in the goalie thread). I don't hold it against Bernier either. I think there are several people on this team that has that right quite frankly. the captain, the alternates, and on this team - the goaltenders

when Bernier did it - I was talking to a friend and I said "whoa" the guy has got stones - especially because this was still during the whole 1A/1B thing. But Bernier does it - then goes out and plays extremely well.I don't recall [and I'll stand corrected right away] - Bernier saying on the radio, in a scrum or in the media "we have to stop making excuses and play better." and then turn around and play 'decent' (ie: just okay enough to win)

Reimer did it just the once - and since then, hasn't. And I honestly, personally feel that hurt him. And again - I don't hold the calling out again him - I'm just mystfied why you'd do that - and then not raise the level of play. because I know for a fact I personally couldn't call someone out on a school project or something, and then just skate by on my half of the project. that was what I was more commenting on.

and in all honesty - calling out the team isn't going to make the team play better. i personally think at this point well - not even really at this point because we're still trying to clinch a playoff spot, but dumb plays (LUPUL or KESSEL or FRANSON) - sit them down for several shifts. Heck. healthy scratch one of them. but we can't because we're too JENGA of a team. pull one piece, we're even more wibblywobbly than we are before.
 

LeafOfBread

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Feb 25, 2010
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Mississauga, ON
nope - I don't hold it against him - (i wrote more in the goalie thread). I don't hold it against Bernier either. I think there are several people on this team that has that right quite frankly. the captain, the alternates, and on this team - the goaltenders

when Bernier did it - I was talking to a friend and I said "whoa" the guy has got stones - especially because this was still during the whole 1A/1B thing. But Bernier does it - then goes out and plays extremely well.I don't recall [and I'll stand corrected right away] - Bernier saying on the radio, in a scrum or in the media "we have to stop making excuses and play better." and then turn around and play 'decent' (ie: just okay enough to win)

Reimer did it just the once - and since then, hasn't. And I honestly, personally feel that hurt him. And again - I don't hold the calling out again him - I'm just mystfied why you'd do that - and then not raise the level of play. because I know for a fact I personally couldn't call someone out on a school project or something, and then just skate by on my half of the project. that was what I was more commenting on.

and in all honesty - calling out the team isn't going to make the team play better. i personally think at this point well - not even really at this point because we're still trying to clinch a playoff spot, but dumb plays (LUPUL or KESSEL or FRANSON) - sit them down for several shifts. Heck. healthy scratch one of them. but we can't because we're too JENGA of a team. pull one piece, we're even more wibblywobbly than we are before.

Well I can understand that. The last paragraph I agree with especially. Lupul and Franson both need to get their heads out of their *****. Lupul is too worried about being in the next edition of GQ while Franson is just a moron and seems to be trying to stack his point totals as high as possible while sacrificing defensive effort.

Kessel will get a pass because he's our offensive MVP, but he needs to be better than he has been lately.

Problem is we're at the point where we can't afford to scratch these guys even if their performance has been detrimental..god knows how replacement players would do being in a pressure cooker situation like this. More inexperience will only hurt us unfortunately.
 

Ari91

Registered User
Nov 24, 2010
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Toronto
"Bernier plays behind the exact same team and he has superior numbers"

.910 Save% vs .925 Save%. Not exactly what I'd call "superior numbers". .015 percentage points better is how many more goals on how many shots? You'd have to do some real math here. They aren't the same in games won, but they're not head and shoulders apart when you really come down to it. There are many other culprits in this mix that need a seat in that trundle under the bus you guys are throwing Reims. Unfortunately, except for Clarkson, who is not one of the D-men who constantly screw up in their own end or pinching in the other zone to surrender odd man rushes but he is one of the forwards who need a map to play in their own end, they don't seem to be the same rat bait.

Reimer will probably be happier somewhere else so looks like both sides will win if this trade works out. His absence won't fix the other issues just pointed out and goalies left in this wasteland eventually all burn out. You can't do it night after night year after year. Ask some of the real good tenders who've worn the Blue Leaf in the past 40 years. Toronto higher ups haven't really cared in many years. The seats are always full. Why should they worry. You'll all gripe, but you'll be back next year. Ka-ching Ka-ching.

Bernier's GAA is better. His SV% puts him top 4 in goalies who have played at least 50 games. Reimer's SV% puts him 30th overall and only 4 goalies that rank better than him have played less games than him. It's not rocket science that the more games you play, the harder it is to maintain a high SV%.

I never said that Reimer was the only problem...hell I don't think I ever said he was a problem at all. I'm not in the category of people who call Reimer garbage and says he sucks. I've actually defended him against those kind of comments but I do believe that Bernier is clearly the better goaltender and I do think his numbers are much better than Reimer's. It comes down to the indisputable fact that both goalies play in front of the same players and one fairs much better than the other. In Bernier's last 18 appearances in net, he has only lost TWICE in regulation. TWICE. If you don't value stats, results and actual performance *which Bernier has been better in all categories* when comparing goalies then I'm not sure what's left for you to look at.
 

HamiltonNHL

Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
Jan 4, 2012
21,882
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Reimer scares me because he never seems to know where the puck is.
He must "lose sight" of the puck more than any other goalie.
It's difficult to watch him.

I also don't think he's the personality type that copes well with pressure.

He might play better elsewhere, but Toronto isn't for him. Especially if Carlyle stays :) (which he probably is).
 

BertCorbeau

F*ck cancer - RIP Fugu and Buffaloed
Jan 6, 2012
55,775
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Simcoe County
I would still want a change in A's on this team. JVR and Bozak would be great candidates.

I would support this .. McClement is a great vet to have around but he plays 4th line minutes and mostly on the PK ... Not exactly a leader throughout the game

Lupul just doesn't have that drive to be 'the guy' right now to lead the group

Bozak certainly has earned his stripes IMO .. I'd also even consider Kessel given how much he's improved over the last couple of years, or Gleason .. He's a warrior out there

in other news, the sky is blue! News at Eleven!

Daisy needs a brownie :sarcasm:
 

HamiltonNHL

Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
Jan 4, 2012
21,882
12,989
We better not play Boston early in the playoffs.
Boston Last 10 games: 10-0-0.
Gulp.
 

HamiltonNHL

Parity era hockey is just puck luck + draft luck
Jan 4, 2012
21,882
12,989
Few more goals against and we will be in Edmonton, Florida territory !

Like it or not, Leafs have a weak Defence and we need the best goalie possible in there.

Get better Bernier.

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Source: http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/standings/ Sorted by GA in Excel.

If you look at the teams with More GA than the Leafs .... they are out of the playoffs by a mile !
 

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LEAFSIN4

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Jan 14, 2013
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The team doesn't trust Reimer. They haven't trusted him since the start of the new year (2014).

Lupul said it best the other day on the radio when comparing Bernier and Reimer... something along the lines of "I've never seen a goalie better than Bernier at controlling and deflecting rebounds.... and Reimer, he battles."

With Reimer in net this team is a 7-11 team. With Bernier, we're a top 5 in the conference team but our ****** defence would not get us through the playoffs.

Nonis deserves props for getting us Bernier, but he needs to address this teams lack of experience and maturity in the offseason.
 
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