Prospect Info: Lias Andersson - Part IV

[NYSPORTS]

Let’s delete this entire thread

before we do, remember to protect your head

 

[gravey9]

I think the Rangers need to learn a bit from him and Kravtsov (though with Kravtsov it's maybe tad different considering contract status and wanting to get a KHL player under a deal before he signs for a longer term over there) in that both of them seemed to really want to speed up their NHL arrival, pushed hard to come over and get their chance quickly, and the Rangers obliged them. I would suspect in both cases it's because they were playing in pro leagues already and the thought could be "they're doing well there, the shift to the NHL may not be as big" but in both cases we also see the stress and disappointment of not making the NHL becoming an issue.
Even if the players think they're ready and are pushing for it, the Rangers need to be able to evaluate this better and find appropriate places for them to play and develop.

I agree. I think it's an interesting conundrum with high end European prospects. Signing them too early can take them out of their development path. But the flipside is, if a player flourishes overseas and gets offered a boatload of money to stay vs an ELC it may make it more challenging to bring them over.

I think this issue is in part why the Rangers hired European developmental staff. It's not just about helping them ID things to work on in their game. But about establishing a closer ongoing relationship that allows the player to feel like they're in the Rangers plans.

 

[Chytilmania]

Well when Lias and Kravstov were drafted our team wasn't looking very good. We had Kreider, Zucc, Vesey, Hayes all with uncertain futures. And Mika wasn't Mika yet. The entire F group was wide open. Meanwhile on defense we had Staal, Smith, DeAngelo, Shattenkirk, Hajek, McQuaid, Pionk, Skjei, Claesson, Lindgren...no room to rush up a prospect. At C and W we were bare and had plenty of room for them to make the team. Now K'Andre and Nils look to be really good with that seasoning. Going forward we have a log jam everywhere so I can't see us bringing any teenagers up anymore and they will have plenty of time to develop.

 

[kovazub94]

I think I've said this before in threads about Andersson, but the line between "insanely competitive" and "prone to getting too down on themselves and getting in a funk and depressed" can be pretty thin. I would guess that most scouts saw all of this as the signs of a fiery competitor who hates to lose and will do anything to win, not just a kid who has had trouble regulating the ups and downs of his emotions and worry about not being able to get out of the down times.

This. There are no bad emotions per se. It's how one can (learn to) control them to turn into something constructive instead of destructive.

 

[The Sweetness]

This is VERY true. My wife is a therapist and she's very good at spotting untreated diagnoses. But thats just a hunch based on experience. It's still takes weeks/months and beyond to get a full picture of someone's mental health (for professionals). And that would be further complicated when talking with teenagers who are notoriously withdrawn when it comes therapeutic situations. It's more akin to an interrogation often.

The medal tossing incident is a prime example of how a single decision could be interpreted in a number of ways psychologically. Is it a sign of impulse control issues? Depression? Perfectionism? A moment that is ultimately just a rare circumstance? Impossible to know without having a thorough understanding of the person's makeup.

Lastly, the hockey world is an incredibly homogenous community. It's still a quote-unquote "man's world." While the old stigmas around therapy have been going away large parts of the world -- male dominated worlds like pro sports still operate with that stigma. Just think how shocking it's been to hear Lias open up several times about his mental state. It's sooo rare to hear that from a pro hockey player (unless someone's talking about a goalie!) that for people who are used to talking about therapy every day, it's still totally shocking.

Point is, red flags about someone's mental capacities are a) hard to identify in small windows of time. b) can easily be confused with being "overly competitive" etc. c) to succeed in pro sports to the highest levels, there are LOTS of very successful players that have long careers with undiagnosed mental illness. Because there are plenty of mental illnesses that are entirely acceptable, if not fostered by team sports environments.

Finally, I will say this -- mental health evaluations, if they are not routine in hockey, should be. I say this not as some advocate for mental health (though I guess I am), I say this because of CTE and concussion symptoms that can often show up first in someone's personality. If the doctors treated said patient don't already have an understanding of the person's baseline mental health and personality, it can make it harder to diagnose and catch early warning signs of brain injury.

This is a fantastic post. Thank you for highlighting the difficulties of accurately getting an understanding of teenagers mentality given the limited access teams have.

Kind of a side note, and this is probably better answered by psychologists, but I feel one of the few ways to get useful information is if your team actually had contacts who 1) your team trusts and 2) who have worked with the player over a number of years who can give some meaningful insights into the players psyche.

Hearing from coaches or others who can tell you that player X is, for example, extremely driven and tries to succeed but that they react poorly to failure and setbacks, is useful information. In addition, hearing what their family is like from inside sources can provide some decent insight. Things like that may be more telling than interviews/psychological tests during very limited contact.

That being said, young players can always change and evolve over the years. Especially if they are surrounded by high quality people.

 

[gravey9]

This is a fantastic post. Thank you for highlighting the difficulties of accurately getting an understanding of teenagers mentality given the limited access teams have.

Kind of a side note, and this is probably better answered by psychologists, but I feel one of the few ways to get useful information is if your team actually had contacts who 1) your team trusts and 2) who have worked with the player over a number of years who can give some meaningful insights into the players psyche.

Hearing from coaches or others who can tell you that player X is extremely driven and tries to succeed but that they react poorly to failure and setbacks. In addition, hearing what their family is like from inside sources. Things like that.

That being said, young players can always change and evolve over the years. Especially if they are surrounded by high quality people.

I'm sure a bunch of this already happens. But it's not necessarily anything more than a very informal analysis. Right? Like when I think back to my high school hockey coach, he would have been very low on the list of people who I would trust to make a psychological evaluation. But he could assess some basics like competitiveness, coachability, etc. The other issue is confidentiality. Say a player did have a therapist or a counselor at their school or team -- a professional can't really share anything about their client unless maybe under oath in court. It's possibly a therapist could write something up, but it would need to go through the player and parents first. So, kinda useless at that point.

Teams could and maybe already do hire someone to make a psychological evaluation of certain players. And that expert could go around and do analysis for them. But that in some ways also feels intrusive. Let's say that expert thinks a kid might be bi-polar. Which in and of itself is a fairly common diagnosis. But it's a diagnosis with a fairly wide range and it also tends to come with an unfair stigma attached, especially amongst those with little psychology background. And I would hate for there to be a situation where a team or many teams got an analysis of a kid that said they were bipolar or had manic depression or PTSD or whatever and the player DOESN'T know any of it. Scary stuff for the kid.

What I do think is more appropriate is for teams to treat mental illness the way they treat physical injury. Like have a therapist on staff. In juniors, in colleges, at the pro level and make it mandatory. But that therapist keeps total confidentiality with their clients (the players). They don't share anything with the team unless authorized to do so by the player. Just make it another tool in the toolbox for these kids, another edge to help them achieve success. When you think about the sheer amount of training and scheduling and specializing modern aspiring athletes are exposed to at very young ages, it's almost a shock that therapy isn't already a natural part of this.

 

[True Blue]

How is this thread still going on?

 

[nyr2k2]

How is this thread still going on?

Because he's still a player in our system? Do you want to just pretend like he doesn't exist?

 

[JimmyG89]

Is their regular season beginning this weekend? It's hard to tell if tomorrow is a regular season game or another preseason match.

 

[True Blue]

Because he's still a player in our system? Do you want to just pretend like he doesn't exist?

I want to believe

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I want to believe

He is a Rangers prospect, and it is in the Rangers best interest for him to perform well with HV71 this season in the SHL.

It's baffling how many Ranger fans fail to realize this

 

[Trxjw]

Still have a hard time seeing the two parties rebuilding a relationship that leads to Lias in a Rangers jersey but everyone should still be rooting for the kid. It's in our best interest for him to rebuild as much value as possible and it's just the decent thing to do.

 

[cwede]

How is this thread still going on?

Because he's still a player in our system? Do you want to just pretend like he doesn't exist?

He is a Rangers prospect, and it is in the Rangers best interest for him to perform well with HV71 this season in the SHL.
It's baffling how many Ranger fans fail to realize this

Still have a hard time seeing the two parties rebuilding a relationship that leads to Lias in a Rangers jersey but everyone should still be rooting for the kid. It's in our best interest for him to rebuild as much value as possible and it's just the decent thing to do.

i know the view expressed by TRXJW is common to many posters here and elsewhere, but i think it is overstated. . Every prospect has his own somewhat unique path, Lias's just has featured a few more off-ice headlines than most.
Which i agree makes him a more likely trade candidate than a typical recent 1st rounder.
But it is still early in his story, and he is looking pretty good with HV71 so far.

 

[Trxjw]

i know the view expressed by TRXJW is common to many posters here and elsewhere, but i think it is overstated. . Every prospect has his own somewhat unique path, Lias's just has featured a few more off-ice headlines than most.
Which i agree makes him a more likely trade candidate than a typical recent 1st rounder.
But it is still early in his story, and he is looking pretty good with HV71 so far.

I don't think it's impossible for Lias to carve out a career with the Rangers but when you see this sort of rift between an organization and a player it usually ends up with all parties agreeing to go their separate ways so they can have a fresh start. Sometimes these things feel like they got smoothed over but there's always a risk that it comes up later on in contract negotiations or arbitration and that's not a good thing for either party.

 

[Levitate]

I think if Lias does well and tells the Rangers "I'd like to come back over and try to earn a roster spot" AND the Rangers have not had a trade proposal come up that they like, then we could see him back over and playing for the Rangers. I somehow doubt the door is completely closed on that but it's gonna depend on what the players wants and is comfortable with and whether the Rangers find more value in trading him between now and whenever a theoretical reunion might take place

 

[JCProdigy]

I think if Lias does well and tells the Rangers "I'd like to come back over and try to earn a roster spot" AND the Rangers have not had a trade proposal come up that they like, then we could see him back over and playing for the Rangers. I somehow doubt the door is completely closed on that but it's gonna depend on what the players wants and is comfortable with and whether the Rangers find more value in trading him between now and whenever a theoretical reunion might take place

By everything I've ever heard/read/seen, John Davidson is a pretty empathetic and thoughtful dude as well as a good communicator. I doubt he'd be one to "throw the baby out with the bath water". My guess is while there was definitely disappointment and anger at the way Andersson and his agent handled the situation, he probably understands Andersson is a young impulsive adult and young impulsive adults sometimes do dumb things (hell old impulsive adults do dumb things. It's just less excusable). So from his perspective, I don't think he believes any bridges are burnt on the Rangers end and Andersson is not persona non grata. Hence I agree with your take, Levitate.

 

[Harbour Dog]

I don't think anybody doubts that the Rangers would take him back if he could be a boost to the roster.

The question is about Lias' desire to return to us. Of course if you assume that he has that desire, the Rangers would welcome him to come back try to earn a spot again.

 

[Tob]

The whole quote about how his contract with the Rangers expire in 1 year makes me think he's just waiting it out regardless of a trade.

 

[cwede]

The whole quote about how his contract with the Rangers expire in 1 year makes me think he's just waiting it out regardless of a trade.

Meaning what exactly? curious what you're thinking that changes. He'd be NHL RFA, under NYR control, nothing changes re NHL. Til he's 27 ..

 

[gravey9]

Meaning what exactly? curious what you're thinking that changes. He'd be NHL RFA, under NYR control, nothing changes re NHL. Til he's 27 ..

That's only partially true. It's true re: NHL. But I believe, and AK can correct me if I'm wrong but once Lias' contract expires with NYR, he is free to sign a long term deal in Sweden. Whereas at the moment it's year to year. And the Rangers have to agree to letting him re-sign each year until he's no longer under contract. We would still hold his NA rights, but he will have more leverage with NYR once his ELC ends because he could threaten 3 year deal in Sweden which would essentially end any value he might still have as a trade chip. So, if NYR doesn't Lias in their plans, it behooves them to move him this off-season.

 

[Ola]

I don't think it's impossible for Lias to carve out a career with the Rangers but when you see this sort of rift between an organization and a player it usually ends up with all parties agreeing to go their separate ways so they can have a fresh start. Sometimes these things feel like they got smoothed over but there's always a risk that it comes up later on in contract negotiations or arbitration and that's not a good thing for either party.

I am fairly certain that it is like this. Lias doesn’t have a future in NY as long as Quinn is here. If DQ goes, I wouldn’t rule it out.

Making it in today’s NHL is tough enough. DQ has obviously from Day 1 disliked Lias. Look, it’s his right. Lias was probably not the best pick to start with, rushing him to the NHL at the age of 18 was mind bogglingly stupid, especially since he had such an extremely long season in his legs (over 120 games in a season). Then in NA as a teenager Lias is struggling mightly. DQ is new on the job, in comes a kid with a bit of a cocky attitude maybe that is friends with the strong leadership in the room — that don’t want a rebuild to start with. DQ is tremendously inexperienced, he has no clue what challenges a kid faces in his draft year with everything that is going on, he has no clue how hard it is to make it in the NHL as an 18 y/o. It’s something else than the NCAA. So he sees a kid that isn’t close, that the GM wants him to play, and thinks that if he can make a 4th line C of this bum he deserves a Nobel Prize and goes about business breaking him down to build him up again. Meanwhile the kid is totally worn down physically and mentally and it’s the last thing he needs.

The situation we have is a mess from (a) a bad pick, to (b) an organization totally incompetent when it comes to developing talent (which is not strange, we hadn’t had any 1st round pick in half a decade), (c) a coach that is new on the job, insecure about his position, with basically zero experience outside the NCAA.

There is no way the organization or coach would have acted like they did if we get a prospect like this again. It would have been, look, we got to give our kids time. Let him take 2 years and 100% focus on getting were he needs to be when he hits the ice the first time in the NHL. If Kakko needs as much times as he does, so will a so so 7th overall pick.

 

[usekakkorightquinn]

The Rangers are one of the best at developing talent. In almost all cases they never rush a prospect. Lias was an outlier. A lot of things had to go wrong on both sides. Lias is going to play a part on this team mostly because the Rangers have too many pansy, perimeter forwards who aren't wiling to score dirty goals in close which is what you need to score in the playoffs. I think Lias was immature but I don't think he's stupid. With Lafreniere, Kakko, Shesterkin, Fox, and the rest of the young core it's no secret that the Rangers will be challenging for a cup for a decade. Lias likes to win. That much is obvious. I think he will come back into the fold and be a Fast on steroids which this team badly needs. Fast was one of our better playoff guys. He doesn't have the talent Lias does.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

It would be a huge bump to our perceived depth chart if Lias and Kravtsov can play for this team. I mean huge. Im hopeful they can resolve the rift. i like Quinn, i think he's done a decent job but if he is the stumbling block between Lias and Kravtsov coming back then go hire Gallant and be done with it, coaches can be replaced, past first rounders can't. If its Gorton then I don't know what to do because the guy took a big leap in drafting Lias where he did, so its obvious he wanted him as part of the team.

 

[MysticLeviathan]

Even if Lias never plays with the Rangers again, he might still have value as a trade piece, which is why it is encouraging for the Rangers to see his success in Sweden.

I still hope he’ll put on a blueshirt again, and success both on and off the ice increases the likelihood of that.

 

[SML2]

The Rangers are one of the best at developing talent. In almost all cases they never rush a prospect. Lias was an outlier. A lot of things had to go wrong on both sides. Lias is going to play a part on this team mostly because the Rangers have too many pansy, perimeter forwards who aren't wiling to score dirty goals in close which is what you need to score in the playoffs. I think Lias was immature but I don't think he's stupid. With Lafreniere, Kakko, Shesterkin, Fox, and the rest of the young core it's no secret that the Rangers will be challenging for a cup for a decade. Lias likes to win. That much is obvious. I think he will come back into the fold and be a Fast on steroids which this team badly needs. Fast was one of our better playoff guys. He doesn't have the talent Lias does.

I am curious, how long have you been following the Rangers? I have been following them since 1985 and have never in that time heard anyone say they were one of the best at developing talent. Who are these talents? I am not trying to be a jerk here, I am just really blown away by that assessment of the situation. After the letter, I guess I agree because they have so many picks they can let them grow, but none of those guys are even players yet.