Player Discussion Lias Andersson: Part II

[GeorgeKaplan]

For whatever metric Quinn is using, Howden has earned his trust and Andersson hasn’t.

I’ll try to find it and edit it in, but in his pregame talk last night Quinn mentioned Lias needing to work on his defensive play, and to me that kind of feels like a decent part of what’s driving Quinn’s decisions and Lias’ play

Edit: about a minute in

 

[Off Sides]

I'm not all that surprised the prospects are going to struggle, yet I do agree the lack of glimpses that show, could show some of the potential of what could be is concerning.

Then again since my stance all along has been that the Rangers should have kept all the younger prospects in the AHL from the start of the year until post the trade deadline, other than for an injury call-up here or there, it's difficult for me to even start to form any sort of opinion based on whatever they are showing or not showing at the NHL level without considering that maybe they should not be in the NHL yet in the first place.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

I mean this in the nicest way possible, but I kind of pick and choose what I take from sites like Blueshirt Banter and some of the others out there. In more than a few instances, the same people writing on those sites are basically the average poster on here. The key difference is that they're collecting their sharing their thoughts on a website platform, as opposed to a message board.

And kind of like the old HockeysFuture articles, the level of quality and judgement is not inherently equal across the board. A website can sometimes add the illusion of expertise, when in reality it's written by the same person that no one pays attention to on here.

You definitely said that nicer than I would’ve

 

[Edge]

I’m going to take issue with this, only because I think I’ve made my argument fairly clear. It’s fine to have patience. But, this is a competition. Some players are going to emerge right away, and some are going to be passed on the depth chart. Part of the equation of this rebuild is simple asset accumulation. Maybe next season, Andersson surpasses Howden on the depth chart, and a Howden becomes the trade asset. So be it. Some of these young players are not going to be here when this team is finally ready to contend. If Gorton has done this rebuild correctly, it shouldn’t depend on any one prospect being successful.

I don't even think that's the issue, to be honest with you.

When you read some of these comments, repeatedly, over the last 18 months, they don't read like people talking about competition, or a battle of the fittest. They read like people actively rooting against someone and taking any opportunity to remind the world how much they didn't like the pick. So while you might not be taking that approach, that tone is very much a constant presence in the overall conversation.

I mean, literally, we can't go two weeks without complaints surfacing about Andersson. In the SHL, the AHL, the WJC, the NHL, you name, there's always a tinge of bitterness and passive aggressiveness in the conversations. You know how you can tell? When he does well you can usually hear crickets. But a lot of times the people who weren't crazy about the pick are just waiting for the chance to find something they didn't like.

So, no, I'm really not buying into the narrative that broader conversation is about competition, or patience, or depth charts, or how rebuilds usually go. I think for you it almost certainly is, but I'm not sure that's where a lot of people are coming from.

You and I have been around here longer than some of our prospects have been alive. We know when a player is not beloved on these boards, it's usually pretty obvious. In this case, I find it to be consistently glaring when I read the overall tone of the conversations about Andersson.

 

[Ori]

In fact, here’s Clark post draft saying “I don’t really do timelines, he’s playing in the men’s elite league as an 18 year old, so he’s probably a little further on then some juniors.”

Lias have 1 goal in 30 games - 2 in 37 if you add his games in the previous season with different NHL coaches AV & Quinn.
And this tape is all we need: Clarke should be retired before the 2019 draft. And for me Lias is not NHL ready at all so hopefully they send him back to Wolfpack to finish his season there with top 6 minutes which he need to develop properly, and less than 10 minutes game is waste of his 1st 7th overall pick talent, and we are not debating about a random 7th rnd pick here.

 

[lilphildub]

I know the standard reply is, 'Of course we all want him to succeed, but I'm just not sold on him', but looking at some of the replies here, yeah, I'm not buying that everyone is really pulling for this kid.

I think there's a good percentage of people who didn't like the pick and would be happier being "right" than they would if Andersson actually become a good draft pick. And something tells me that even if he did turn out to be a good draft pick, there would always be a "yeah, but..." in the comments.

I disagree. I think some people didn't like the pick but said lets give the kid a chance to see what he's got. And so far he hasn't shown much. I don't see many people giving up on him but are disappointed. Nothing wrong with that. Are we supposed to pretend that he's been good? I have no problem with people saying patience is needed but I'm not gonna pretend he's been playing good or has shown that he belongs yet

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Lias have 1 goal in 30 games - 2 in 37 if you add his games in the previous season with different NHL coaches AV & Quinn.
And this tape is all we need: Clarke should be retired before the 2019 draft. And for me Lias is not NHL ready at all so hopefully they send him back to Wolfpack to finish his season there with top 6 minutes which he need to develop properly, and less than 10 minutes game is waste of his 1st 7th overall pick talent, and we are not debating about a random 7th rnd pick here.

He was the 7th overall pick in what we all knew going into it would be a weak draft. I also really don’t see anything wrong with what Gordie is saying in that video

 

[FireGerardGallant]

For whatever metric Quinn is using, Howden has earned his trust and Andersson hasn’t.

The problem is I don't trust Quinn's metrics. This is the guy who gives Pionk 1d time

 

[Ghost of jas]

I don't even think that's the issue, to be honest with you.

When you read some of these comments, repeatedly, over the last 18 months, they don't read like people talking about competition, or battle of the fittest. They read like people actively rooting against someone and taking any opportunity to remind the world how much they didn't like the pick. So while you might not be taking that approach, that tone is very much a constant presence in the overall conversation.

I mean, literally, we can't go two weeks without complaints surfacing about Andersson. In the SHL, the AHL, the WJC, the NHL, you name, there's always a tinge of bitterness and passive aggressiveness in the conversations. You know how you can tell? When he does well you can usually hear crickets. But a lot of times the people who weren't crazy about the pick are just waiting for the chance to find something they didn't like.

So, no, I'm really not buying into the narrative that broader conversation is about competition, or patience, or depth charts, or how rebuilds usually go. I think for you it almost certainly is, but I'm not sure that's where a lot of people are coming from.

You and I have been around here longer than some of our prospects have been alive. We know when a player is not beloved on these boards, it's usually pretty obvious. In this case, I find it to be consistently glaring when I read the overall tone of the conversations about Andersson.

Fair enough. I try to be fair in my assessment. I have admitted he wasn’t my choice for that pick. But, I believe his skating issue has been way overblown. I can see his attributes. What is a red flag for me is the lack of trust Quinn has in him. And, once again, this could all be moot by the end of the season. But, I’m also of the opinion that it’s not the end of the world if Andersson ends up getting moved because other players have passed him on the depth chart. There are people here who would immediately either, 1) claim the Rangers weren’t patient enough with him, or 2) claim it was wasted pick, when the true answer doesn’t fall under either category. This rebuild is going to be fluid. Three months ago, it was questionable whether DeAngelo would be here long term. Buchnevich looked like he could easily be moved on from as recent as month ago. Now, a different picture has emerged.

 

[Ori]

Yes it`s a weak draft, but it`s how he evaluate the player - he would never say it like that two years later if he knew that Lias will struggle that much.

 

[Ghost of jas]

The problem is I don't trust Quinn's metrics. This is the guy who gives Pionk 1d time

He’s also the guy who’s been able to bring progress on a number of players on this roster. He’s shown far more positives in his first year than negatives.

 

[Edge]

I disagree. I think some people didn't like the pick but said lets give the kid a chance to see what he's got. And so far he hasn't shown much. I don't see many people giving up on him but are disappointed. Nothing wrong with that. Are we supposed to pretend that he's been good? I have no problem with people saying patience is needed but I'm not gonna pretend he's been playing good or has shown that he belongs yet

But here's the thing, those same complaints were evident when he was setting SHL records. People were literally making the same exact complaints when he was breaking a record.

They were complaining when he was scoring in the AHL as a teenager.

So these complaints, are not just because he hasn't produced in the NHL ---- as a 20 year old. I think that makes for a plausible cover, but the history of the conversations about Andersson, literally from day one, tell a very different story.

And even if I go along and say, sure, people are disappointed he isn't producing at the NHL. I feel like there's this whole other level of context that is completely left out. The ice time, playing on the fourth line, him not getting a longer run with linemates he obviously had chemistry with, the production at levels leading up to here, etc. How about the fact that Chytil had the exact same problem when in the role that Andersson is in now? His production only came AFTER he was put in a different role. How about the fact that Howden has struggled when bumped down a line and just scored his first goal since November, when not in the role Andersson is in now. Quite frankly, almost every rookie on the roster has struggled in the Andersson slot on the fourth line. The difference is that they are moved out of that slot on a regular basis.

If we're going to point to things with Andersson, that's fine. But it becomes obvious that objectivity isn't the goal when we are avoiding the elephants in the room with other players, or ignoring other aspects.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

Yes it`s a weak draft, but it`s how he evaluate the player - he would never say it like that two years later if he knew that Lias will struggle that much.

A) you don’t know he wouldn’t say that now
B) his ‘struggles’ are being way overblown

 

[Ori]

I`m not a fan of Pionk as a defender, but @jas has a solid point. Quinn give ice time where he thinks they are in development - and see Howden with more upside than Lias at the moment which is not a surprise since he only have 1 goal. But my brief point is Lias should not be playing NHL right now - he benefit a lot more concerning his development with top 6 minutes in AHL and Wolfpack.

 

[Edge]

Lias have 1 goal in 30 games - 2 in 37 if you add his games in the previous season with different NHL coaches AV & Quinn.
And this tape is all we need: Clarke should be retired before the 2019 draft. And for me Lias is not NHL ready at all so hopefully they send him back to Wolfpack to finish his season there with top 6 minutes which he need to develop properly, and less than 10 minutes game is waste of his 1st 7th overall pick talent, and we are not debating about a random 7th rnd pick here.

So Clarke should retire because of Andersson, but Chytil, Miller, Kravtsov, Keane, Shesterkin, and the young players we've signed or traded for were someone else's work?

Not following.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

He’s also the guy who’s been able to bring progress on a number of players on this roster. He’s shown far more positives in his first year than negatives.

I agree he's shown more positives than negatives, but I still disagree about the way he's handled some situation

 

[Edge]

Fair enough. I try to be fair in my assessment. I have admitted he wasn’t my choice for that pick. But, I believe his skating issue has been way overblown. I can see his attributes. What is a red flag for me is the lack of trust Quinn has in him. And, once again, this could all be moot by the end of the season. But, I’m also of the opinion that it’s not the end of the world if Andersson ends up getting moved because other players have passed him on the depth chart. There are people here who would immediately either, 1) claim the Rangers weren’t patient enough with him, or 2) claim it was wasted pick, when the true answer doesn’t fall under either category. This rebuild is going to be fluid. Three months ago, it was questionable whether DeAngelo would be here long term. Buchnevich looked like he could easily be moved on from as recent as month ago. Now, a different picture has emerged.

Personally, in the right deal, I'm not opposed to anyone being moved. My pushback really isn't because I am head over heels in love with Andersson as a prospect, it's because I read some of these threads and it's the reaction to him is so blatant. There's this narrative out there, like some others around here, that always seems to bend or break when logic and context is applied.

I mean people are going to like or dislike the pick, what's done is done. And objectivity is very difficult to maintain when someone doesn't like something. But at times the negativity feels so forced, that it borders on satire.

 

[Ori]

Yes @Edge in my view he totally miss with his evaluation about Lias in that interview - maybe how he decided to use the words in that particular interview. We don`t know about Kratsov or the 2018 draft yet so I won`t comment on that.

 

[Inferno]

I don't even think that's the issue, to be honest with you.

When you read some of these comments, repeatedly, over the last 18 months, they don't read like people talking about competition, or a battle of the fittest. They read like people actively rooting against someone and taking any opportunity to remind the world how much they didn't like the pick. So while you might not be taking that approach, that tone is very much a constant presence in the overall conversation.

I mean, literally, we can't go two weeks without complaints surfacing about Andersson. In the SHL, the AHL, the WJC, the NHL, you name, there's always a tinge of bitterness and passive aggressiveness in the conversations. You know how you can tell? When he does well you can usually hear crickets. But a lot of times the people who weren't crazy about the pick are just waiting for the chance to find something they didn't like.

So, no, I'm really not buying into the narrative that broader conversation is about competition, or patience, or depth charts, or how rebuilds usually go. I think for you it almost certainly is, but I'm not sure that's where a lot of people are coming from.

You and I have been around here longer than some of our prospects have been alive. We know when a player is not beloved on these boards, it's usually pretty obvious. In this case, I find it to be consistently glaring when I read the overall tone of the conversations about Andersson.

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I only commented on this thread today because it was brought up that he had low minutes despite a positive shot differential or something.

My entire contention that lias' play....not his draft position, not his international play, not his heritage, not his height, weight, footspeed, etc...his play has flat out not earned him more playing time .. and I kinda hate the.. .well give him better linematrs argument.

In the end the cream tends to rise to the top, regardless of who your linemates are.. ..but even if youre going with the linematrs or toi argument, who are lias' most common linematrs? How is their production relative to his? Are they bringing him down or is he bringing them down. .. not even sure where to look for this data

 

[Edge]

Yes @Edge in my view he totally miss with his evaluation about Lias in that interview - maybe how he decided to use the words in that particular interview. We don`t know about Kratsov or the 2018 draft yet so I won`t comment on that.

I think if 2018 isn't decided, 2017 isn't terribly far behind at this point. Especially considering that both Andersson and Chytil are part of a handful of prospects from 2017 who have already turned pro.

The remaining 90 percent of the 2017 class is still playing against kids who just received their drivers license, and/or college kids.

That's a hell of a world of difference from what our top picks in 2017 have already been doing for a year now. And if we're going to apply the same grading system across that wide of spectrum, I'm not confident in the results we're going to get.

 

[Ori]

A) you don’t know he wouldn’t say that now
B) his ‘struggles’ are being way overblown

Maybe I`m too hard on Clarke, but he is the guy who decide what we end up with though. Yes he would never say those words two years later, and hopefully he learn from it, because it`s really hard to see the future about player development - and how much time they need to get into NHL level.

The only reason Quinn enjoy Lias in NHL is the competition in training sessions which he has a point, but not sure if Lias will benefit from it at his age - it`s too early for him to compete at NHL level.

 

[Edge]

Not sure if you're referring to me, but I only commented on this thread today because it was brought up that he had low minutes despite a positive shot differential or something.

My entire contention that lias' play....not his draft position, not his international play, not his heritage, not his height, weight, footspeed, etc...his play has flat out not earned him more playing time .. and I kinda hate the.. .well give him better linematrs argument.

In the end the cream tends to rise to the top, regardless of who your linemates are.. ..but even if youre going with the linematrs or toi argument, who are lias' most common linematrs? How is their production relative to his? Are they bringing him down or is he bringing them down. .. not even sure where to look for this data

So if the cream rises to the top, why is there such a big discrepancy between when Chytil was in the same slot as Andersson, and when he wasn't? They were all producing at the same abysmal rate down in that spot.

Ditto for Howden.

Literally, every single rookie we've had centering the fourth line at 10 minutes a night, with the exception of Nieves, has really struggled offensively in that spot. And we've had no less than 5 rookies play in that role.

And almost to a man, every single one of them looked substantially better when paired with better linemates. The biggest difference? Chytil and Howden have been skating there for months. Andersson got what? A few games here and there?

I thought he looked very good on the third line. Did he stay there? Nope.

Prior to a few days ago, Howden and Chytil played close to probably 100 combined games without scoring a goal --- while getting shifts in the top 9. But Andersson not scoring, while on the fourth line, will generate pages of debate and questions.

If we want an accurate assessment, a truly accurate assessment, let's see what happens when Chytil is back to the fourth line and Andersson is skating in his spot now. Or let's see what happens if Andersson gets 15 minutes skating in Howden's slot for a couple of months.

Let's see if the cream truly rises to the top, because it really wasn't when the same constraints were applied to other players. And that's pretty telling.

 

[Inferno]

So if the cream rises to the top, why is there such a big discrepancy between when Chytil was in the same slot as Andersson, and when he wasn't? They were all producing at the same abysmal rate down in that spot.

Ditto for Howden.

Literally, every single rookie we've had centering the fourth line at 10 minutes a night, with the exception of Nieves, has really struggled offensively in that spot. And we've had no less than 5 rookies play in that role.

And almost to a man, every single one of them looked substantially better when paired with better linemates. The biggest difference? Chytil and Howden have been skating there for months. Andersson got what? A few games here and there?

I thought he looked very good on the third line. Did he stay there? Nope.

Prior to a few days ago, Howden and Chytil played close to probably 100 combined games without scoring a goal --- while getting shifts in the top 9. But Andersson not scoring, while on the fourth line, will generate pages of debate and questions.

If we want an accurate assessment, a truly accurate assessment, let's see what happens when Chytil is back to the fourth line and Andersson is skating in his spot now. Or let's see what happens if Andersson gets 15 minutes skating in Howden's slot for a couple of months.

Let's see if the cream truly rises to the top, because it really wasn't when the same constraints were applied to other players. And that's pretty telling.

Yeah but when chytil played down on the 4th line, it sure looked like he was generating stuff but his linematrs couldn't keep up....it doesn't look that way for lias'.

Does anyone actually have their 4th line stats to compare?

 

[MetalJaws]

I think everyone here really wants Lias to be a standout.

An Aho, Marner, Point, Debrincat, Tkachuk, Barzal, Dubois, Connor, Strome, Boeser, Konecny or Keller. All 21 year old guys or younger absolutely killing it. I think we fans want the Rangers to get that guy and are putting wayyyyyyy to much pressure on LA to be that guy. Also, the verdict isn't out yet, he could blow up next year or the year after and kill it under Quinn. I'd give him until 23 before we write him off. To write him off sooner when we have all these pieces and more upcoming is stupid.

We all want him to be great, let's see what he does. Patience isn't something that a lot of poster seem to have on here.

As many on here have stated. This is the 1st full year of the rebuild. Give it a couple seasons.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

I feel like saying positive shot metrics is just a way of saying you can't really find much to talk about here... I mean he himself didn't have a shot on goal. Did he attempt any? I honestly don't remember. In a game where both teams did crap all offensively he still stood out to me as being. .not as good as everyone else.

I'm not surprised his toi was down...I'm sorry but the guy isn't doing anything... ANYTHING to deserve more toi.

I mean show me something....throw a big hit. Run the goalie trying to put a rebound home.. .win a battle know the boards and take a puck away, get to the open areas and take a high danger shot.

IMHO saying he had a positive shot differential while him basically contributing zero to that differential doesn't really say much.

I said positive shot metrics because i didn’t watch the game. It was dumb as f*** to not give him more TOI last night