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Let's rank all the competitive leagues

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HC Jets said:
From what I gathered from this feedback, there are four main critiques which are all at least partially both true and false.

1) single example-
Malkin was the first player I researched, but the rest of the data (for the most part) also supports this claim:

E. Malkin 37 GP 65 PTS 144 (PTS over 82 GP)
V. Tarasenko 31 GP 32 PTS 85 (PTS over 82 GP)
M. Grabovsky 29 GP 24 PTS 68 (PTS over 82 GP)
N. Kulemin 36 GP 38 PTS 86 (PTS over 82 GP)
A. Ovechkin 31 GP 40 PTS 106 (PTS over 82 GP)
P. Datsyuk 31 GP 36 PTS 95 (PTS over 82 GP)
A. Anisimov 36 GP 29 PTS 66 (PTS over 82 GP)

To be as accurate as possible, I did not include players who had played less than 27 games (approximately 1/3 of 82 Games), players who no longer play in the NHL, or any defensemen as point totals are poor indicators of their value. However, much of the data still supports my claim as only Tarasenko's stats seemed close to those of the NHL, and even then, he hadn't had his breakout at that time.

2) established NHL players struggling in Europe
Yes, that is true, but many of these are the Ben Eager type who didn't last in the KHL because his style of play is useless in European leagues as they do not value "bruisers" like North American leagues. Also, the statement can be used both ways, as just this year, Petri Kontiola couldn't stick with the Toronto Maple Leafs and continued his success back in Europe.

3) Good fits and Power Play fluctuations
This critique is right on, but it still does not totally explain the extremely inflated stats of Malkin, Anisimov, Grabovsky, Kulemin or even Tarasenko at that time.

4) limited look at the season
I looked into the partial NHL season's stats as well. While there are more games played (48) it is still a small sample size. Of the 20 top scorers, only four looked strange in the top 20. Chris Kunitz- due mainly to his linemates in Pittsburgh, Martin St-Louis, Eric Staal and Andrew Ladd. This is only really 3 of 20 that looked out of place for no good reason.
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As I said, you cannot, in any way, compare a short season to a long one. The single short NHL-season does not change anything about that either, because it is just another case of a single example.
PPG-average always drops the more you play, something that has been proven over and over again. You can't just take Crosby's or Lemieux's half season and extrapolate what would have happened over a full season either. Playing an entire 82 game season has a wear on the players, you just don't have that effect over shorter periods. Just like a European season has less wear on the players than a full NHL-season.

Even in the absolutely rare cases where a player can keep up a ridiculous production over a long time, it won't last for the entire season. Wayne Gretzky once scored 3 points per game over 51 games, he didn't end up anywhere near the 240-250 points that would have been over a whole season, in part due to the fact that the more you play the more chances there are for injuries, minor and major, which can prevent you from being at the top of your game. Add the fact that the NHL regular season isn't much longer than the European ones in terms of days (mid September to mid March, compared to early October to mid April), and you notice that players have to play a whole lot more games over a similar time-frame. This means you have more wear and less rest in the NHL, resulting in worse results over the long-run.

I wasn't talking about Ben Eager types, I was talking about at times 2nd line or better NHL-players. There simply is no direct link between success in the NHL and more success in lower-level leagues, it just doesn't work that way. It also doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with bruisers being less used in Europe, as I have mentioned that in some cases the average NHL-player (read: either bruiser ot two-way) had more success than a top six player. Just like some players don't look like much in the AHL and then suddenly turn it up by a lot in the NHL.

Players of higher caliber can run away with the scoring in lesser leagues, but it is not something that is automatic. Just like it isn't automatic that they actually fare better than in the NHL, for a multitude of reasons.
 
If you look at the KHL scoring list from last season it's pretty obvious that 6 of the top 10 scorers are guys who were in the KHL because they couldn't make the NHL and would have been playing in the AHL if they had remained in North America. Keep in mind that these are amongst the most elite players in the entire KHL, not middle of the road or lower end guys. If the best players there are below an NHL level then obviously the mid range players are way below, and the lower range guys are way, way below. I'm not sure how anyone could refute that.
 
Mr Kanadensisk said:
If you look at the KHL scoring list from last season it's pretty obvious that 6 of the top 10 scorers are guys who were in the KHL because they couldn't make the NHL and would have been playing in the AHL if they had remained in North America. Keep in mind that these are amongst the most elite players in the entire KHL, not middle of the road or lower end guys. If the best players there are below an NHL level then obviously the mid range players are way below, and the lower range guys are way, way below. I'm not sure how anyone could refute that.
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Keep in mind these are generally offensive type players that could not crack a limited number of NHL roster spots, for one reason or another. It certainly does not mean that no KHL player could secure any spot on any NHL team, nor even mean that these players would not have eventually been brought up and stayed up for some NHL team, if they had stayed in North America.
 
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Crosbyfan said:
Keep in mind these are generally offensive type players that could not crack a limited number of NHL roster spots, for one reason or another. It certainly does not mean that no KHL player could secure any spot on any NHL team, nor even mean that these players would not have eventually been brought up and stayed up for some NHL team, if they had stayed in North America.
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All true. There are certainly a handful of KHLers who could walk right onto an NHL teams and do just fine. There are also a few that I mentioned above that are going to give the AHL/NHL another shot this year.
 
1. NHL
2. KHL
3. SHL (SHL-teams dominates in CHL year after year)
4. NLA
5. AHL
6. Liiga
7. DEL
8. Extraliga
9. Allsvenskan (SHL-2)
10. EBEL
 
A few years ago I would have ranked the SHL above the AHL, but I don't know anymore. The SHL has lost many good players, and many AHL'ers who come to Sweden are top players in the SHL. Meanwhile, the KHL is losing ground. So many good players left their league this year. With that being said, I still rank it #2.

NHL
KHL
AHL/SHL/Liiga/NLA (imo, it's just too close to seperate them)
DEL/Extraliga
Allsvenskan/ECHL

Allsvenskan is better than people outside of Sweden will think. About half of the teams in that league have played in the SHL during the last decade. Even my hometown team, who are one step below Allsvenskan, have a few players with SHL experience on the roster. They wouldn't embarass themselves against ECHL competition.

But of course, in just one single game, anything could happen. An ECHL team would probably win a few games in the NHL even. All it really takes to win a game is a hot goalie and hot powerplay.
 
Elvs said:
A few years ago I would have ranked the SHL above the AHL, but I don't know anymore. The SHL has lost many good players, and many AHL'ers who come to Sweden are top players in the SHL. Meanwhile, the KHL is losing ground. So many good players left their league this year. With that being said, I still rank it #2.

NHL
KHL
AHL/SHL/Liiga/NLA (imo, it's just too close to seperate them)
DEL/Extraliga
Allsvenskan/ECHL

Allsvenskan is better than people outside of Sweden will think. About half of the teams in that league have played in the SHL during the last decade. Even my hometown team, who are one step below Allsvenskan, have a few players with SHL experience on the roster. They wouldn't embarass themselves against ECHL competition.

But of course, in just one single game, anything could happen. An ECHL team would probably win a few games in the NHL even. All it really takes to win a game is a hot goalie and hot powerplay.
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If those leagues are close then why do SHL teams keep dominating CHL? Also, plenty of AHL players have failed too. TJ Hensick?
 
lakers11 said:
If those leagues are close then why do SHL teams keep dominating CHL? Also, plenty of AHL players have failed too. TJ Hensick?
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Dominating? First of all, less than half the teams from all leagues participate in the CHL. And plenty of games, even where SHL teams come out as winners, are close. Not to mention five Liiga teams are currently leading their respective CHL groups.

Yes, Hensick failed. Plenty of SHL players failed in the AHL too ...
 
Elvs said:
Dominating? First of all, less than half the teams from all leagues participate in the CHL. And plenty of games, even where SHL teams come out as winners, are close. Not to mention five Liiga teams are currently leading their respective CHL groups.

Yes, Hensick failed. Plenty of SHL players failed in the AHL too ...
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Yes, dominating. 3 out of 4 teams remaining last CHL were from SHL. Same thing the year before

Why do you think that is?
 
I do however think, but this is mainly speculation, believe that SHL teams train better in the offseason. This would also factor in why SHL teams do so well in the CHL. I know DEL teams enter the ice much later than SHL teams, at least that was the case last year. I remember this was said when Lulea met Hamburg last year, and it was evident during the game.
 
If CHL keeps running like this for a while, it's going to be a decent indicator of strength between various European leagues behind the KHL. Right now however, too little has been played to say anything conclusive.

Still, it has been a little surprising to see how much better SHL and Liiga clubs have fared when compared to the Swiss ones. Especially since not all shareholders from said countries are among the top brands either. Quite a bit of them have been among the middle pack in the past few years.

But like I said, right now it's better to just wait and see if it's going to even out as time passes.

Elvs said:
I do however think, but this is mainly speculation, believe that SHL teams train better in the offseason.
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It could also be the reason why Liiga teams are doing so well right now. It is, after all, a league known less for its skill (even if there is some of that too) and more for its intense pace of play and physicality.
 
Elvs said:
It's not going to continue like that forever. If even this year...



And this.
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European trophy then? Whatever

Everything points towards it will be the same this year.

Look at the favorites to win this thing:

1. Skellefteå
2. Luleå
3. Växjö
3. Kärpet

PS 3 out of 6 NLA teams are already out.
 
lakers11 said:
European trophy then?
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European Trophy held little to no prestige and was treated completely as a secondary event by all the clubs involved, so it can hardly be taken as any kind of indicator.

On the surface at least, clubs do appear to take CHL a little more seriously, so there's no saying it shouldn't be used as a meter between various European leagues. However, as of right now, there just isn't enough data yet to say anything conclusive. We need at least a season or two more.
 
lakers11 said:
European trophy then? Whatever

Everything points towards it will be the same this year.

Look at the favorites to win this thing:

1. Skellefteå
2. Luleå
3. Växjö
3. Kärpet

PS 3 out of 6 NLA teams are already out.
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I don't care if two SHL teams meet in the finals again. We are talking about the leagues, which has many more teams not in the CHL. If the SHL, Liiga and NLA were combined into one league, you wouldn't see 14 teams from the SHL leading the standings. In all likelyhood it would be 2 teams here, another 3 teams there, a couple of teams near the bottom etc... You can continue to talk about the CHL if you want. I'm basing my opinion on the rosters. For a decade now I have followed any player with an NHL contract. Plenty of these guys are now in the SHL, Liiga and NLA.

I'm not even saying that the NLA and Liiga is as good as the SHL. I was even gonna rank the SHL above them until I decided the difference isn't big enough to seperate them. Swedes will say their league is the best, fins will say theirs is the best, swiss will says theirs. Everyone seems to agree that the NHL is #1 and the KHL #2, but after that it's just close. We could go on about how a few SHL teams are favourites in the CHL, but then we might as well start comparing the SHL to the KHL. I imagine Skelleftea, especially a couple of years ago, would fair well in the KHL. A few other SHL teams wouldn't embarrass themselves either.
 
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What are you talking about? The best teams of each leagues are playing in the CHL. The winners and the runner up from last season are all playing.

Why SHL is considered the 3rd best is because of the depth. There are many good teams there, as evident in CHL. Hence the mention of 3 of 4 of the final teams being from Shl
 
Elvs said:
Swedes will say their league is the best, fins will say theirs is the best, swiss will says theirs.
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I don't think you'd find many Finns who place Liiga above SHL. Some might make a case for being ahead of NLA, but a lot depends on the factors used.

I'm personally in the "too close to call" faction too. SHL has maybe the best depth out of them. Because they can pay competitive salaries to their stars, NLA likely has the best handful of individual players. Liiga teams may actually have the best coaching and training of the bunch, which makes them more competitive than you'd usually figure. After all, even the KHL likes to take advantage of Finnish know-how, not to mention our NT that consistently overachieves.

I'd say that rather than trying to rank the teams one by one, maybe we should place them in tiers.

Tier 1 - NHL. Clear number one, no question.
Tier 2 - KHL. Similarly clear number two for now.
Tier 3 - SHL - AHL - Liiga - NLA. Four leagues that are too close to call.
Tier 4 - Czech Extraliga - DEL - VHL - EBEL... etc. Not exactly sure which and how many leagues should be on this tier (and subsequent lower tiers), feel free to debate.
 
lakers11 said:
What are you talking about? The best teams of each leagues are playing in the CHL. The winners and the runner up from last season are all playing.
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Ok lets take a look. Here are the results of games between SHL teams vs Liiga and NLA teams in this years CHL.

Linkoping – Bern 3-2 SO
Linkoping – HIFK 2-0

Djurgarden – Tappara 2-4
Djurgarden – Tappara 3-2 OT
Djurgarden – Zug 3-2

Farjestad – Davos 0-4
Farjestad – Davos 1-0 OT

Frolunda – JYP 3-2

Lulea – Lukko 4-3 SO
Lulea – Fribourg 4-2

That's 10 games. Sure, that's 8 wins for SHL teams but half of those came in OT/SO. As for the remaining 4 wins, two were one goal games and two were two goal games. I don't see how this is "domination".

Domination is when NHL teams come to Sweden, with jetlag+different timezone, bigger ice surface and right out of training camp, and win easily over SHL teams who are in full season mode. It was either Columbus or St. Louis who won big against Linkoping (I think it was) a few years ago. Back in the early 2000's Toronto beat Djurgarden 7-1 and dominated play in a 3-0 win over Farjestad IIRC.

When SHL teams start blowing out Liiga and NLA teams on a consistant basis we can discuss this again. So far this CHL the biggest score difference is Davos 4-0 win over Farjestad.
 
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