Let's rank all the competitive leagues

[Jakk123]

Hockeyallsvenskan should be no8 on that list then, because its better than the slovak league

Indeed, I forgot about Allsvenskan.

 

[SCBdude]

1. NHL
2. KHL
3. SHL
4. NLA
5. Liiga
6. AHL
7. DEL
8. Czech Extraliga
9. EBEL
10. Slovak Extraliga

 

[FlutteringSaucer]

I think if you polled people with actual knowledge you;d come to the conclusion that yes the AHL is the third best league in the world next to the NHL and KHL.

I actually had a chat with two scouts in a recent WJC about the level difference between AHL and SHL/Liiga. We agreed that SHL and Liiga are more competitive leagues. In terms of just talent AHL might be close but SHL and Liiga are clearly better in terms of level of hockey played.

 

[BusQuets]

I actually had a chat with two scouts in a recent WJC about the level difference between AHL and SHL/Liiga. We agreed that SHL and Liiga are more competitive leagues. In terms of just talent AHL might be close but SHL and Liiga are clearly better in terms of level of hockey played.

This.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Sure... Krog, Haydar and Stewart were soon sent packing because they simply weren't KHL quality.
As for Palushaj, he was a tweener in just about every season from 10/11 till 13/14.

Bottom line is, you can't really judge leagues based on point production of certain players. Some fit in, some don't, some arrive to a certain club at the right time some don't etc.

Check out Evander Kane's KHL stats btw.

I don't put a lot of value on the stats from conditioning stints during lockouts, etc, but for guys who are there to play for real they certainly mean something. Again, a tweener who drops to a pure AHLer is no longer a tweener.

 

[Zine]

It is very difficult to assess players and leagues without seeing them compete together. The best measure is on average how players perform who transfer between leagues. The 2013-14 Medvescak team is a pretty good basis for comparison between the AHL and KHL. They were a brand new team, entirely comprised of players who would be in the AHL if they were playing in North America and they placed 11th out of 28 teams that regular season. Furthermore I'm confident that if the KHL played on NA sized rinks for the whole season that Medvescak would have finished even higher.

It's also pretty easy to look at the top scorers in the KHL in recent years and see that the list is full of guys who would be in the AHL if playing in NA. It's true that in many cases players make more in the KHL than the AHL. However keep in mind that players will play for less in the AHL because they feel it improves their chances of making the NHL. Also many foreigners don't perceive Russia to be a great place to live, contracts are easily cancelled, etc, so they have to overpay to get a lot of guys to go over there.

If you crunch the numbers and look at the participation levels in hockey around the world, and the relative size of the pool of players feeding each league then it is easily seen why the AHL on average is on par in terms of talent with the KHL and other Euro leagues. I have nothing against the KHL but to say it is somehow head and shoulders better than the AHL just isn't true.

2013-14 Medvescak would've been a favorite for the Calder Cup.
Statistically, only a handful of AHL teams had Medvescak's offensive depth if we use Medvescak's player's final year AHL stats as a comparison. Medvescak had a very veteran D-core too, and AHL all-star Brust in net.

A front runner for the Calder Cup as a mid tier 1st round playoff exit in KHL is on par with the talent gap between the leagues. And they weren't even .500 the following year.

 

[Exarz]

Leaving the junior leagues out of the list

1. NHL
2. KHL
3. SHL
4. NLA
5. AHL
6. Liiga
7. Czech Extraliga
8. DEL
9. EBEL
10. HockeyAllsvenskan (SWE-2)
11. Slovak Extraliga
12. VHL (RUS-2)
13. NLB (SUI-2)
14. ECHL
15. Get-Ligaen (NOR)
16. Metal Ligaen (DEN)
17. EIHL
18. Ligue Magnus
19. Mestis (FIN-2)
20. Swedish First Division (SWE-3) / Czech second division

 

[Exarz]

Even the best KHL team would finish dead last if they played a season in the NHL right now, the talent gap is massive. Perhaps if you assembled all the best KHLers on one NHL team they could be somewhere in the bottom 1/2 of the NHL standings, but that's it I'm afraid.

I would say that last season's SKA Saint Petersburg and CSKA Moscow would have a good chance at getting a wild card spot.

SKA had a good team chemistry (set a league record for most three pointers in a row / most wins in a row) and proved to be a team when they were down 0-3 against CSKA in the conference finals, yet managed to win four straight games and then win the Gagarin Cup. Now when the key players left for the NHL, they are still a top team in the KHL but not as good as last season.

CSKA on the other hand was a machine throughout the season but choked against SKA in the very end. CSKA got a better team than SKA this season, but I am doubtful that they would manage to secure a playoff spot in the NHL..

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

Zin e "2013-14 Medvescak would've been a favorite for the Calder Cup.
Statistically, only a handful of AHL teams had Medvescak's offensive depth if we use Medvescak's player's final year AHL stats as a comparison. Medvescak had a very veteran D-core too, and AHL all-star Brust in net.

A front runner for the Calder Cup as a mid tier 1st round playoff exit in KHL is on par with the talent gap between the leagues. And they weren't even .500 the following year."

They'd be a mid pack AHL team too. Most of those guys are well past their prime and had been playing in Europe for a number of years since leaving the AHL. They certainly wouldn't be anywhere near to Calder Cup favourites. Besides, as I said earlier there is way more than just Medv as an example. Look at the top scorers in the KHL every year, lots of AHL level players.

 

[Mr Kanadensisk]

I would say that last season's SKA Saint Petersburg and CSKA Moscow would have a good chance at getting a wild card spot.

SKA had a good team chemistry (set a league record for most three pointers in a row / most wins in a row) and proved to be a team when they were down 0-3 against CSKA in the conference finals, yet managed to win four straight games and then win the Gagarin Cup. Now when the key players left for the NHL, they are still a top team in the KHL but not as good as last season.

CSKA on the other hand was a machine throughout the season but choked against SKA in the very end. CSKA got a better team than SKA this season, but I am doubtful that they would manage to secure a playoff spot in the NHL..

I'm sure you feel that way, but seeing how SKA did against KHL competition will tell you next to nothing about how they would do in the NHL without some other basis for comparison. Arboga rules!

 

[TheSanny]

Storhamar (Norway) just beat Sparta (Czech league) 2-1 in Prague.

Stavanger Oilers (Norway) beat Trinec (Czech league) 4-1 on home ice last week.

Surely the Norwegian league is better than the Czech league

 

[HC Jets]

The KHL is on par with the NHL if we're talking about average players.

The KHL is in no way competative with the NHL:

For example, Evgeni Malkin had 65 points in 37 games for Magnitogorsk during the most recent NHL lockout. That is roughly 1.76 pts per game which over an 82 game NHL season, is 144 points if the KHL is somehow in the ballpark with the NHL.

The fact that nobody has cracked 130 since 1995-96 is a good indication that the KHL is nowhere close to the level of the NHL.

 

[TheSanny]

The KHL is in no way competative with the NHL:

For example, Evgeni Malkin had 65 points in 37 games for Magnitogorsk during the most recent NHL lockout. That is roughly 1.76 pts per game which over an 82 game NHL season, is 144 points if the KHL is somehow in the ballpark with the NHL.

The fact that nobody has cracked 130 since 1995-96 is a good indication that the KHL is nowhere close to the level of the NHL.

I agree. That's the stats I tried to base my thread on.

 

[Rorschach]

If we ranked all of the defensemen in the NHL from best to worst, where would the best five KHL fit in the ranking? Would we pass 100 better defensemen in the NHL before the best KHL Dman would show in the ranking?

I have a feeling what defines the NHL and separates it from the KHL completely is the hockey IQ, mental speed and defense that is played on that level is truly elite.

 

[TheSanny]

If we ranked all of the defensemen in the NHL from best to worst, where would the best five KHL fit in the ranking? Would we pass 100 better defensemen in the NHL before the best KHL Dman would show in the ranking?

I have a feeling what defines the NHL and separates it from the KHL completely is the hockey IQ, mental speed and defense that is played on that level is truly elite.

I agree on the second response 100 %.

In my opinion, if you would rank the top 100 defenseman in the NHL, there would probably be room for 4 or 5 KHL'ers on that list.
Even though the KHL playing style is completely different from the NA style of play, I still would rate the NHL higher in skill than the KHL any day of the week.

 

[Atas2000]

The KHL is in no way competative with the NHL:

For example, Evgeni Malkin had 65 points in 37 games for Magnitogorsk during the most recent NHL lockout. That is roughly 1.76 pts per game which over an 82 game NHL season, is 144 points if the KHL is somehow in the ballpark with the NHL.

The fact that nobody has cracked 130 since 1995-96 is a good indication that the KHL is nowhere close to the level of the NHL.

I really start to doubt people actually read what they reply to.

 

[Atas2000]

I have a feeling what defines the NHL and separates it from the KHL completely is the hockey IQ, mental speed and defense that is played on that level is truly elite.

LOL, the hockey IQ is just laugable in the NHL nowadays. Everybody goes crazy about the TKO line which just executes what is considered normal hockey IQ wise in Europe.

Of all your aguments we might agree on defence, but then again NHL defencemen put on the big rink would need time adjust and there is no guarantee they would all be as good as they are in the NHL.

You are just repeating mantras about how NHL is superior in any way possible. That is just not true.

While it is so simple actually. NHL has better goaltending due to the fact there is only one starter per team, so the the very top crop of goaltenders in the world plays in the NHL. And the NHL has the star players, at least two or three of them on every team. Take that away(which is only a hypothetical move and it is taking away a lot of course) and the level of the rest of the players is very much comparable to the KHL.

In fact the bottom 6/bottom pairing players in both leagues are selected to suit the needs of the rink. Many NHL bottom 6 players would look lost on the big rink. The same applies to the KHL bottom 6 players on the small rink.

 

[Sanderson]

The KHL is in no way competative with the NHL:

For example, Evgeni Malkin had 65 points in 37 games for Magnitogorsk during the most recent NHL lockout. That is roughly 1.76 pts per game which over an 82 game NHL season, is 144 points if the KHL is somehow in the ballpark with the NHL.

The fact that nobody has cracked 130 since 1995-96 is a good indication that the KHL is nowhere close to the level of the NHL.

I agree that the KHL is nowhere near the NHL, but your comparison simply does not work at all. Single examples do not tell anything about an entire league. With single examples, you could find one for pretty much every point you would like to make. You can find quite a few examples of long-time successful NHL-players playing in smaller European leagues, looking like they didn't even belong there. There are way too many things to consider when it comes to such a performance, it cannot be used as proof for anything.

For one, there is more than just skill involved. One league might have a more defensive style than another, which can lead to lower PPG-averages even though the league is a bit better when you compare the talent. Players may simply not fit into a certain league (or the opposite), they might not give as much effort, cannot get used to the country they are in or simply do not find any teammates they gel with. On the opposite end, you can find the perfect match as well, leading to a much better performance than expected. You can find enough examples of average NHL-players outshining NHL-stars while playing in another league, just because they were a better fit. There is a reason why some players look better in the NHL than they do in the AHL as well.

In addition to that, the PPG-average usually falls over a longer season. Evgeny Malkin would very likely not have kept a 1.76ppg average over a 82 game season in the KHL. As such it makes little sense to extrapolate it in this way, much less to compare the extrapolated total to the total of a real NHL-season.

 

[HC Jets]

I agree that the KHL is nowhere near the NHL, but your comparison simply does not work at all. Single examples do not tell anything about an entire league. With single examples, you could find one for pretty much every point you would like to make. You can find quite a few examples of long-time successful NHL-players playing in smaller European leagues, looking like they didn't even belong there. There are way too many things to consider when it comes to such a performance, it cannot be used as proof for anything.

For one, there is more than just skill involved. One league might have a more defensive style than another, which can lead to lower PPG-averages even though the league is a bit better when you compare the talent. Players may simply not fit into a certain league (or the opposite), they might not give as much effort, cannot get used to the country they are in or simply do not find any teammates they gel with. On the opposite end, you can find the perfect match as well, leading to a much better performance than expected. You can find enough examples of average NHL-players outshining NHL-stars while playing in another league, just because they were a better fit. There is a reason why some players look better in the NHL than they do in the AHL as well.

In addition to that, the PPG-average usually falls over a longer season. Evgeny Malkin would very likely not have kept a 1.76ppg average over a 82 game season in the KHL. As such it makes little sense to extrapolate it in this way, much less to compare the extrapolated total to the total of a real NHL-season.

From what I gathered from this feedback, there are four main critiques which are all at least partially both true and false.

1) single example-
Malkin was the first player I researched, but the rest of the data (for the most part) also supports this claim:

E. Malkin 37 GP 65 PTS 144 (PTS over 82 GP)
V. Tarasenko 31 GP 32 PTS 85 (PTS over 82 GP)
M. Grabovsky 29 GP 24 PTS 68 (PTS over 82 GP)
N. Kulemin 36 GP 38 PTS 86 (PTS over 82 GP)
A. Ovechkin 31 GP 40 PTS 106 (PTS over 82 GP)
P. Datsyuk 31 GP 36 PTS 95 (PTS over 82 GP)
A. Anisimov 36 GP 29 PTS 66 (PTS over 82 GP)

To be as accurate as possible, I did not include players who had played less than 27 games (approximately 1/3 of 82 Games), players who no longer play in the NHL, or any defensemen as point totals are poor indicators of their value. However, much of the data still supports my claim as only Tarasenko's stats seemed close to those of the NHL, and even then, he hadn't had his breakout at that time.

2) established NHL players struggling in Europe
Yes, that is true, but many of these are the Ben Eager type who didn't last in the KHL because his style of play is useless in European leagues as they do not value "bruisers" like North American leagues. Also, the statement can be used both ways, as just this year, Petri Kontiola couldn't stick with the Toronto Maple Leafs and continued his success back in Europe.

3) Good fits and Power Play fluctuations
This critique is right on, but it still does not totally explain the extremely inflated stats of Malkin, Anisimov, Grabovsky, Kulemin or even Tarasenko at that time.

4) limited look at the season
I looked into the partial NHL season's stats as well. While there are more games played (48) it is still a small sample size. Of the 20 top scorers, only four looked strange in the top 20. Chris Kunitz- due mainly to his linemates in Pittsburgh, Martin St-Louis, Eric Staal and Andrew Ladd. This is only really 3 of 20 that looked out of place for no good reason.

 

[FiLe]

While I agree that using just single player as a comparison point is kinda silly, but if one absolutely wants to use one, I'd say that due to having long-time stats from both leagues, the best possible specimen would be Ilya Kovalchuk.

It certainly doesn't look like scoring in the KHL has been any easier for Kovy, since his curve is pretty identical in both leagues.

Another solid example with plenty of experience from both leagues is Jaromir Jagr. He either hasn't peaked in the KHL plenty harder than he did in the NHL.


So that "not using players no longer in the NHL" can be bit of a double-edged sword. There's not much point in comparing the production of players who have made the transition because their star in the NHL was waning, but on the other hand, it doesn't get more accurate than comparing the stats of that handful who have jumped the league while they still could have well made it in the NHL.

 

[Jyrki Lumme]

KHL
NHL
SHL

AHL
Liiga



NLA

 

[Eisdork]

Every economist would say that you only need to look at the player salaries to determine the strength of the various leagues...

 

[Jablkon]

LOL, the hockey IQ is just laugable in the NHL nowadays. Everybody goes crazy about the TKO line which just executes what is considered normal hockey IQ wise in Europe.

Of all your aguments we might agree on defence, but then again NHL defencemen put on the big rink would need time adjust and there is no guarantee they would all be as good as they are in the NHL.

You are just repeating mantras about how NHL is superior in any way possible. That is just not true.

While it is so simple actually. NHL has better goaltending due to the fact there is only one starter per team, so the the very top crop of goaltenders in the world plays in the NHL. And the NHL has the star players, at least two or three of them on every team. Take that away(which is only a hypothetical move and it is taking away a lot of course) and the level of the rest of the players is very much comparable to the KHL.

In fact the bottom 6/bottom pairing players in both leagues are selected to suit the needs of the rink. Many NHL bottom 6 players would look lost on the big rink. The same applies to the KHL bottom 6 players on the small rink.

KHl is high quality league and some teams can definetely beat some NHL teams at least on a big ice. Still you can not cover the fact that, despite different style of hockey, guys who did not make a NHL team or did not get the position they wanted there become regular KHLers or get that position in KHL club.

Compare best teams and worst teams and evaluation will be always in favour of NHL. That does not mean that KHL teams would constantly loose to NHL teams, but facts are clear.

 

[lakers11]

Anze kopitar 10 goals and 24 assist on 31 GP. Thats in swedens second division

Surely one would expect more from a NHL star?

 

[RobertR]

Not even close. A guy like Kevin Dallman couldn't stick in the NHL but he becomes one of the best defensemen in the league in the KHL. Take a 3rd/4th liner or a bottom pairing defenseman from a below average KHL team and they'd be completely overmatched in the NHL. We see it every year where some player decides to defect from the KHL to pursue his childhood dream in the NHL, and every year the player fails to do so.

I'am not sure there are many NHL d-mans who could do something similar to what Dallman did in his first KHL year..

Just look at Karlsson stats when he played in SM-liiga in the lockout..