Value of: Leon Draisaitl to your team

[snipes]

Not trading Domi for a Wing and a bust.



How many goals pts do you think he gets on the Habs? How many? How many on the Sens? Columbus? How many without an A++ grade Centre feeding him? He is NOT a 50 goal 105 pt player or else why can't Patrick Maroon score 27 goals away from McDavid?

Draisaitl would be the best player the Habs have had in the last 25 years

 

[cgf]

which is fine, but 1) fair value won't see Draisaitl moved and 2) fair value can mean a lot of different things. You're offer what you consider to be fair value in terms of pure futures, by and large, and there's no reason at all for Edmonton to consider a futures offer. Moving Draisaitl for a bunch of stuff that might be ready to contribute in three seasons probably also leads to a McDavid trade request. Not only does it not make sense to move a young player of Draisaitl's caliber for futures, it would also have a ripple effect of probably costing us McDavid.

And, come on now. Makar is a nice prospect but saying 1 for 1 for Draisaitl is like us offering Bouchard 1 for 1 for Rantanen.

I'm just going to ignore that last sentence because if you genuinely think Bouchard is a comparable prospect to Makar then we just profoundly disagree on these two prospects...but the rest of this post is what I've been saying this whole time. Thus making the distinction between it making any sense for you and the value seeming right.

Like, trading Mikko for Quinn Hughes would make no sense for us directionally, but the value would be pretty close to fair...and I'm in the camp that's even higher on Makar than Hughes.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Not trading Domi for a Wing and a bust.



How many goals pts do you think he gets on the Habs? How many? How many on the Sens? Columbus? How many without an A++ grade Centre feeding him? He is NOT a 50 goal 105 pt player or else why can't Patrick Maroon score 27 goals away from McDavid?

How many do I think he gets with NHL wingers away from McDavid? How many do I think he gets with actual puck moving defencemen headmanning him? The guy is an elite talent and you simply don't have the pieces we'd want to trade him.

He IS a 50 goal 105 point player because he's done it. Last year. Squirm all you like, try to diminish his value, but he went and did it and nobody can take that away from him.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

I'm just going to ignore that last sentence because if you genuinely think Bouchard is a comparable prospect to Makar then we just profoundly disagree on these two prospects...but the rest of this post is what I've been saying this whole time. Thus making the distinction between it making any sense for you and the value seeming right.

Like, trading Mikko for Quinn Hughes would make no sense for us directionally, but the value would be pretty close to fair...and I'm in the camp that's even higher on Makar than Hughes.

I don't think Bouchard is comparable to Makar, but Draisaitl is also quite a bit better than Rantanen. I think that's the disagreement moreso than "omg Chaotic thinks Bouchard = Makar"

I acknowledge you offered value, but it just doesn't make any sense for us at all. I live in western Canada and watch a ton of WHL. Byram is going to be really good, I'm just not sure if he's a Karlsson talent or a Barrie talent.

I mean, really, how do I know MacKinnon isn't overrated? Guy plays almost all his minutes with excellent wingers. If HF has taught me anything, it's that a player needs to go out there with four ostriches in hockey jerseys and put up 100 points to have any value.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Draisaitl would be the best player the Habs have had in the last 25 years

If we're only counting forwards, he'd be the best Hab since LaFleur.

 

[cgf]

I don't think Bouchard is comparable to Makar, but Draisaitl is also quite a bit better than Rantanen.

I mean, really, how do I know MacKinnon isn't overrated? Guy plays almost all his minutes with excellent wingers. If HF has taught me anything, it's that a player needs to go out there with four ostriches in hockey jerseys and put up 100 points to have any value.

 

[joe dirte]

Probably the point, obvious troll is obvious. A poster from Long Island trying to get the Rangers Draisaitl using a player I hate? Gooooood.

Why dont you go ahead and report him for trolling then?

 

[kdog82]

McAvoy for Drai

 

[ThePhoenixx]

The numbers actually suggest youre cutting far more than 10 to 15 points without mcdavid. More like 40. So add in the decent wingers and youre back at about 55 or 60 points. Which sounds about right.

What is this? A five year olds' post all of a sudden?

Such a crying post. Waah, you don't like my Leafs so I will post nonsense.

It's actually very bemusing.

 

[McSuper]

You have plugs signed and retaining on Lucic. Who cares if you overpay your star players, that just means you can’t overpay depth players which is even better in the long run.

Oilers used their extra cap space to sign garbage to bigger and worse deals.

Edit - did you not see the Clarkson trade? It’s literally a lock Marner signs even though it may be into the season.

Wanna bet on it? Put your money where your mouth is.

Let’s forget your opinion and the Oilers fans opinion for a minute. You know there fans of other teams calling you out on this ? Do you really think a Calgary Flames fan is coming in here to defend the Oilers ? Just maybe they see threw your straw man argument .

I found the garbage time points funny . First of all you are saying Draisaitl scored all these points because of McDavid so would that not make McDavid’s points equal to Draisaitl’s ? Better remove all of McDavid’s point and proclaim the 2nd coming is Marner . LOL .

CO provide facts , you come back was take away Draisaitl best season when clearly he has gotten better each season . A proper debate is to debate the facts to date not to move the line to suit your agenda which you clearly aren’t capable of . This is a clear win for a CO whom I don’t often see eye to eye with .

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Most common linemates are Landeskog and Rantanen basically all season, but fell off quite a bit in the 2nd half when he played with Kerfoot and Compher more...

HMMMMMM.

(yes, I'm just giving you a hard time now, but this is what we deal with daily)

but DRAISAITL only put up a 70 point pace with a tackling dummy on one side and a monster truck tire on the other, guy's soooo overrated...

 

[cgf]

Most common linemates are Landeskog and Rantanen basically all season, but fell off quite a bit in the 2nd half when he played with Kerfoot and Compher more...

HMMMMMM.

(yes, I'm just giving you a hard time now, but this is what we deal with daily)

but DRAISAITL only put up a 70 point pace with a tackling dummy on one side and a monster truck tire on the other, guy's soooo overrated...

Oh I know. Like I said, I'm a Drae fan...I was on here arguing for him to go 1st overall way back in his draft year. So I've seen the drae threads from people who don't watch him...but you're under-estimating Mikko. Drae is obviously further along in their development, but Mikko's just as talented & creative...despite my subjective preference for Drae.

 

[viceroy]

Draisaitl is a natural C who is playing wing because of circumstance.

No one is a natural NHL Centre. No one. You can be a natural Bantam/Midget Centre, doesn't mean you'll Centre in the CHL. One set of skills won't magically upgrade to the next. Most forwards in the NHL played Centre as kids but playing C in the big show takes a lot of time and hard work and best at a formative stage.

Your humble opinion is wrong. Bowser doesn't get the conversation started regardless of how many pluses you add. Draisaitl is more than just a trigger man for McDavid. It's also weird to say he isn't a C. He can play both C and both wings. Why would we penalize him for that? It's a ridiculous sentiment around here, trying to drag down Drai because he plays with McDavid a lot. Nobody craps on Kucherov for playing with Stamkos/Point, or Rantanen for playing with MacKinnon, etc.

Even Boeser + Q.Hughes + 1st doesn't get people to start negotiating? Okie dokie.

Well sure Draisaitl can sub in here and there for a short time at C but that doesn't make him a real C. Playing 82 games as a Centre in the NHL is a very arduous thing and at no times has LD proven that he could. For chrissakes Paul Byron was stuck playing as C for us for a short time, didn't make him a Centre.

Jeez I'm not saying LD sucks. He's actually pretty awesome but to deny that his numbers are inflated playing alongside McDavid is disingenuous at best. Well no one here is claiming that Kucherov or Rantanen are Centres either. Also didn't say that rule wasn't applicable to those other 2 Wings either. How many points do Kucherov and Rantanen get on the Habs? A lot less right? See?

Draisaitl would be the best player the Habs have had in the last 25 years

Better than prime Price? Better than prime Subban? I don't think so. How many points would prime Pacioretty have gotten riding shotgun with McDavid instead of fricking David Desharnais? Also I wouldn't care if the Habs had the best player in the NHL and one of the best Wingers in the game if the results of having those two players would mean getting Oilers' type results.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Oh I know. Like I said, I'm a Drae fan...I was on here arguing for him to go 1st overall way back in his draft year. So I've seen the drae threads from people who don't watch him...but you're under-estimating Mikko. Drae is obviously further along in their development, but Mikko's just as talented & creative...despite my subjective preference for Drae.

I like Rantanen a lot, but he's a pure winger while Drai is a hybrid and I just like his complete game more. Plus Rantanen needs to drive his own line with the mascot at C and the colour guy on LW if he wants to be successful in this league

I know you like Drai (and have been trying to trade for him for awhile now) but the guy should retire an Oiler in my opinion.

 

[Albatros]

No he didnt. He had 9.

No assist, no credit.

 

[cgf]

I like Rantanen a lot, but he's a pure winger while Drai is a hybrid and I just like his complete game more. Plus Rantanen needs to drive his own line with the mascot at C and the colour guy on LW if he wants to be successful in this league

I know you like Drai (and have been trying to trade for him for awhile now) but the guy should retire an Oiler in my opinoin.

Drae does have the center thing going him...which, admittedly, I don't put as much stock in as some folks when we're talking about play driving wingers like this...but their talent level, creativity & impact are in the same tier. Whereas I don't think the same will be true of Bouchard & Makar at the NHL-level, at all...and (probably) not even Bouchard & Byram; despite being lower on Byram than most people and really having enjoyed watching the craftiness Bouchard has displayed at the junior level.

 

[Del Preston]

No one is a natural NHL Centre. No one. You can be a natural Bantam/Midget Centre, doesn't mean you'll Centre in the CHL. One set of skills won't magically upgrade to the next. Most forwards in the NHL played Centre as kids but playing C in the big show takes a lot of time and hard work and best at a formative stage.

Good lord. His natural postion is centre. He's played centre everywhere (juniors, AHL, NHL, and internationally). The reason he plays wing right now is because the wingers on the Oilers aren't very good.

 

[viceroy]

Draisaitl would be the best player the Habs have had in the last 25 years

If we're only counting forwards, he'd be the best Hab since LaFleur.

Moved the goalposts real quick for your compadre there hunh? LOL

Look we're not talking about the Habs numerous failings here and spotty record but rather the TRUE value of Leon Draisaitl to an NHL team. Look he is a great NHL Wing who can be absolutely elite alongside someone like McDavid or possibly a MacKinnon, Crosby or Matthews but most teams don't have a McDavid, MacKinnon, Crosby or Matthews. Do you really think Draisaitl could replicate those numbers on the Habs? Really?

 

[joe dirte]

No assist, no credit.

Bahahahaah, so you're saying if McDavid didn't get a point on the play, it doesn't matter?

Yeah, we all know that's BS.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Moved the goalposts real quick for your compadre there hunh? LOL

Look we're not talking about the Habs numerous failings here and spotty record but rather the TRUE value of Leon Draisaitl to an NHL team. Look he is a great NHL Wing who can be absolutely elite alongside someone like McDavid or possibly a MacKinnon, Crosby or Matthews but most teams don't have a McDavid, MacKinnon, Crosby or Matthews. Do you really think Draisaitl could replicate those numbers on the Habs? Really?

If Gallagher and Drouin are the caliber of players Habs fans seem to think they are, I have little doubt that Draisaitl could be a 90 point player centring them. All that heart and soul Gallagher brings would elevate Draisaitl to SuperSaiyan levels and the pure talent oozing out of Drouin’s pores would allow Draisaitl to finally achieve Ubermensch.

For every “but McDavid” argument you have to remember there’s a counterargument that for the 40% or so of the time he’s not with McDavid, he was with the worst wingers the NHL had to offer. If you’re asking me, I honestly think not having Draisaitl on McDavid’s wing for the whole season cost Drai the Rocket and McDavid the Art Ross.

The irony of a Montreal fan complaining that Draisaitl is a winger when the last two seasons they’ve moved actual wingers to centre because of a complete lack of options (with disastrous and good results) isn’t lost on me, by the by.

 

[joe dirte]

What is this? A five year olds' post all of a sudden?

Such a crying post. Waah, you don't like my Leafs so I will post nonsense.

It's actually very bemusing.

Pardon? The post I responded to was predicated on two events - 1) Remove him from McDavid's line, and have him centre his own line. And 2) give him some decent wingers.

It then proceeded to break down the impact on what his point totals might be.

Number 2, we can only guess what replacing his wingers might do, but number 1, that's just simple math.

Draisaitl played approximately 600 minutes of 5 on 5 hockey without McDavid this year, in which he scored 14 points. The average 1st line centre played between 1100 and 1300 minutes at 5 on 5. Take the average of 1200 minutes and it becomes simple. 28 points. Now add in your PP points, and you'll get in the 40 point region. So what I said checks out.

The second part, you can make your own assumptions about what improving his wingers might be. I doubt it would double his points though. I feel a 50% increase is quite generous of me, so I'm pretty comfortable with 55 to 60 point estimates.

 

[viceroy]

Good lord. His natural postion is centre. He's played centre everywhere (juniors, AHL, NHL, and internationally). The reason he plays wing right now is because the wingers on the Oilers aren't very good.

I respectfully disagree. Could Draisaitl have become a bonafide NHL Centre if the Oilers had tried to develop him as such? Maybe, but we'll never know because once again Edmonton took a shortcut. They once again traded long term gains for short term results. Sure the Habs ruined lots of prospects in the last few years. Lots. Lots and lots. But to ruin First Overalls and high end guys like the Oil's been doing? Woohee.

Also about the "Natural" NHL Centre thing, just think how many Centres get drafted every year? Now how many make it? And how many get converted to Wing? Like I said Leon can sub in for a bit but that doesnt make him a true blue Centre, not at all. Being a full-time, 82 NHL games, big time C isn't just for anyone. Actually it's for a very small, a fraction, a quantum of players.

 

[McSuper]

Go watch some YouTube videos.

Most filthy backhand sauce in the league.

Even his junior highlights from his Prince Albert days in the WHL, he’s ridiculous on the backhand threading touch saucer passes.

Example a 100 foot backhand saucer to McDavid in stride:

Another garbage time goal when Edmonton is behind . Oh let’s not forget it was as all set up by McDavid .

 

[Del Preston]

I respectfully disagree. Could Draisaitl have become a bonafide NHL Centre if the Oilers had tried to develop him as such? Maybe, but we'll never know because once again Edmonton took a shortcut. They once again traded long term gains for short term results. Sure the Habs ruined lots of prospects in the last few years. Lots. Lots and lots. But to ruin First Overalls and high end guys like the Oil's been doing? Woohee.

Also about the "Natural" NHL Centre thing, just think how many Centres get drafted every year? Now how many make it? And how many get converted to Wing? Like I said Leon can sub in for a bit but that doesnt make him a true blue Centre, not at all. Being a full-time, 82 NHL games, big time C isn't just for anyone. Actually it's for a very small, a fraction, a quantum of players.

He plays all three forward positions. I don't know why this so hard to understand.

2014-15: centre
2015-16: centre
2016-17: majority at wing
2017 playoffs: centre
2017-18: majority at centre
2018-19: majority at wing

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Pardon? The post I responded to was predicated on two events - 1) Remove him from McDavid's line, and have him centre his own line. And 2) give him some decent wingers.

It then proceeded to break down the impact on what his point totals might be.

Number 2, we can only guess what replacing his wingers might do, but number 1, that's just simple math.

Draisaitl played approximately 600 minutes of 5 on 5 hockey without McDavid this year, in which he scored 14 points. The average 1st line centre played between 1100 and 1300 minutes at 5 on 5. Take the average of 1200 minutes and it becomes simple. 28 points. Now add in your PP points, and you'll get in the 40 point region. So what I said checks out.

The second part, you can make your own assumptions about what improving his wingers might be. I doubt it would double his points though. I feel a 50% increase is quite generous of me, so I'm pretty comfortable with 55 to 60 point estimates.

I’m legitimately dumber for having read this post. Guy actually - clumsily, like a baby deer walking on ice - tried to argue that Leon Draisaitl is a 40 point player.