Player Discussion Leo Carlsson

[slippingsloth]

I just don’t want to be bottom 5 again. I was hoping to see .500 hockey all year long, and maybe finish 10-12th last. Will still draft a very good player. Who can make an impact sooner rather than later on the NHL level.
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Amen to not tanking for bottom 5. And the consequence of that is we are unlikely to be realistically getting top3-5 pick. Knowing our system we will end up drafting another great defender because we are amazing at that and have difficulty finding forwards outside top 10

So if i accept that we arent bottom 5, I would love to go 500…. wildcard in just for my psyche but playoffs is a big cherry. 42-32-8 was panthers getting last wildcard last year. 92 points. Who knows … are oilers and kraken in trouble or is it just too early. My fandom creeping in lol… back to point.

Being last years sabres or red wings demonstrating that wind is beneath our wings and we are starting the climb out of the depths is my realistic hope.

 

[Anaheim4ever]

“"It's an organizational decision," coach Greg Cronin said. "I'm looking through a different lens as a coach than what management's looking at. He's a young kid. He's got a real bright future. I think that the plan is to try and strengthen him and build some power and some speed into his game. I think there's some data that Pat and our strength and conditioning staff believe in that's going to help reinforce that."

Carlsson's agent Matt Keator said he was happy with the communication from Verbeek and with the plan itself, a program that he said has been the subject of a lot of discussion since the draft. The two spoke about it when the Massachusetts-based Keator was in California about a month ago.

Asked if the program could spread to other players and other teams, Keator said, "I hope so, because it makes the most sense. … You're still growing, you're still developing. You don't have the man muscles. Leo still has a little-boy body in some ways, in terms of strength.”

Fans complain Anaheim franchise needs more advanced stats and sports science usage, complains heavily when franchise starts using it.

It now makes sense why agents are now advocates for it, they want the best for their clients who are drafted super high and go straight to NHL to Not end up like Slafkosky/Byfield/Kakko/Kotkaniemi/Laf. That is 5 recent top3 pick guys who should have gotten load management. All 5 of those are big guys too.

 

[FiveTacos]

Being last years sabres or red wings demonstrating that wind is beneath our wings and we are starting the climb out of the depths is my realistic hope.

Now I got that damn Bette Midler song in my head.

I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to hunt you down for that.

 

[Felidae]

I'm really rooting for Carlson.

He reminds me of my favourite player Barkov. Not stylistically (haven't watched him enough to say), but just in that they seemed to be pretty underestimated heading into the draft, and now that they're in the NHL, they're showing everyone why they deserved to be drafted 2nd overall.

Anyways, never really understood the question marks around him tbh. Generally, when a highly touted player's best strength is their hockey IQ, that's the best sign you can have in a prospect becoming a high end hockey player imo, and it's not like he doesnt have the physical tools either.

Cant wait to see how good he becomes.

 

[Mr Rogers]

I'm really rooting for Carlson.

He reminds me of my favourite player Barkov. Not stylistically (haven't watched him enough to say), but just in that they seemed to be pretty underestimated heading into the draft, and now that they're in the NHL, they're showing everyone why they deserved to be drafted 2nd overall.

Anyways, never really understood the question marks around him tbh. Generally, when a highly touted player's best strength is their hockey IQ, that's the best sign you can have in a prospect becoming a high end hockey player imo, and it's not like he doesnt have the physical tools either.

Cant wait to see how good he becomes.

IQ is a good trait to bet on for sure. A lot of busts over the years ended up displaying hockey IQ which severely limited their potential. Daigle is an interesting example, sure he had all sorts of motivational issues and was a distracted athlete, but his IQ was astonishingly average to below-average.

 

[MMC]

“"It's an organizational decision," coach Greg Cronin said. "I'm looking through a different lens as a coach than what management's looking at. He's a young kid. He's got a real bright future. I think that the plan is to try and strengthen him and build some power and some speed into his game. I think there's some data that Pat and our strength and conditioning staff believe in that's going to help reinforce that."

Carlsson's agent Matt Keator said he was happy with the communication from Verbeek and with the plan itself, a program that he said has been the subject of a lot of discussion since the draft. The two spoke about it when the Massachusetts-based Keator was in California about a month ago.

Asked if the program could spread to other players and other teams, Keator said, "I hope so, because it makes the most sense. … You're still growing, you're still developing. You don't have the man muscles. Leo still has a little-boy body in some ways, in terms of strength.”

Fans complain Anaheim franchise needs more advanced stats and sports science usage, complains heavily when franchise starts using it.

This quote from the agent really stands out to me:

"And for him as an 18-year-old who's probably physically still growing -- he's going to be 19 soon (Dec. 26) -- it just makes the most sense. I love how progressive they're thinking on this and the way they're using sports science, just creating a great plan for the kid."

After so many complaints and concerns about how the organization was falling behind, you'd think this would be enough to win people over...

 

[ohcomeonref]

This quote from the agent really stands out to me:

"And for him as an 18-year-old who's probably physically still growing -- he's going to be 19 soon (Dec. 26) -- it just makes the most sense. I love how progressive they're thinking on this and the way they're using sports science, just creating a great plan for the kid."

After so many complaints and concerns about how the organization was falling behind, you'd think this would be enough to win people over...

What exactly did they say or accomplish that should win the fans over? There's no way to prove if it works or not. As of right now it's just a group of fans saying it's the right thing "because management said so".

 

[MMC]

What exactly did they say or accomplish that should win the fans over? There's no way to prove if it works or not. As of right now it's just a group of fans saying it's the right thing "because management said so".

If it can't ever be proven or disproven then the argument can equally be made that a group of fans are saying it's the wrong thing "because I'm mad I can't watch him play". And I for one am much more confident in the logical decisions of the front office and agent than the emotional ones of the fanbase...

 

[robbieboy3686]

I’ve gotta be honest, I’d prefer to miss the playoffs by a few points and have a better chance at getting another impact pick than barely make the playoffs and be a 4 game sweep for a 1 seed. The team isn’t deep enough to do much in the playoffs.

Hard disagree. If we made the playoffs, other than with vegas. I don’t see a team capable of sweeping us. The difference from picking 7-10 as opposed to maybe 20 isn’t that large

 

[ohcomeonref]

If it can't ever be proven or disproven then the argument can equally be made that a group of fans are saying it's the wrong thing "because I'm mad I can't watch him play". And I for one am much more confident in the logical decisions of the front office and agent than the emotional ones of the fanbase...

I don't trust management because "they said so".

 

[MMC]

I don't trust management because "they said so".

The great thing about this then is that you don't even have to then since the same sentiment is being echoed by the player and the agent

 

[Ducks DVM]

What exactly did they say or accomplish that should win the fans over? There's no way to prove if it works or not. As of right now it's just a group of fans saying it's the right thing "because management said so".

They have data supporting their position. The way you prove if it works or not, is to do what they’re doing, then see if the physical progress of the player is ahead of the physical progress of the average player by a statistically significant degree. That’s how medicine works. Just because we don’t have access to that data does not even remotely mean that it cannot be proven if it works or not. That’s basic science.

 

[Ducks DVM]

Hard disagree. If we made the playoffs, other than with vegas. I don’t see a team capable of sweeping us. The difference from picking 7-10 as opposed to maybe 20 isn’t that large

The difference between picking 7-10 and 20 is statistically the difference between picking a 1st-2nd line player vs a 3rd-4th line player. Late 1sts aren’t nearly as likely to actually become impact players as people think they are.

 

[DavidBL]

Can we really appeal to authority that this is the right path given 31 of 32 teams DON'T do it? And of course the agent supports it. His client is getting a full NHL salary for not a full NHL season and guarantees that their next contracts is 2 years earlier. I'm not even convinced it's not the right thing to do in general. But have I have said there are things I don't like about it. I don't think anyone here disputes that Leo at 100% makes this team better. I want the team to ice the best team possible to maximize their chances of winning games. The argument here is that given his age it is likely impossible for him to be 100% through the whole year. Exhaustion can be just as bad as an injury. I have no issues scratching Leo if he isn't 100% I do have issues with benching a 100% because he won't be 100% later. Scratch him as needed.

 

[Deuce22]

“"It's an organizational decision," coach Greg Cronin said. "I'm looking through a different lens as a coach than what management's looking at. He's a young kid. He's got a real bright future. I think that the plan is to try and strengthen him and build some power and some speed into his game. I think there's some data that Pat and our strength and conditioning staff believe in that's going to help reinforce that."

Carlsson's agent Matt Keator said he was happy with the communication from Verbeek and with the plan itself, a program that he said has been the subject of a lot of discussion since the draft. The two spoke about it when the Massachusetts-based Keator was in California about a month ago.

Asked if the program could spread to other players and other teams, Keator said, "I hope so, because it makes the most sense. … You're still growing, you're still developing. You don't have the man muscles. Leo still has a little-boy body in some ways, in terms of strength.”

Fans complain Anaheim franchise needs more advanced stats and sports science usage, complains heavily when franchise starts using it.

Kind of like fans who wanted Leo to play in the SHL and now are complaining about him not playing every night in the NHL.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Carlsson is icing on the cake with the Ducks. I was expecting Carlsson to play 1C in the SHL, but if he's gonna be here, then play top-6C on NA ice. He's playing part-time 1C with the NHL club, which aligns similarly to the SHL and NCAA route. I'm okay with that. The reason I wanted Carlsson in the SHL was to improve his body while playing 1C for Orebro. They play 52 games in the same span as the NHL plays 82 games.

The determinant for an uptick in our team play was always going to rest on our defense. We added several stay-at-home D over the summer in RD Gudas, LD Hagg, and traded for RD Lyubushkin. With so many veteran type D-men on board, I thought only one rookie D-man would make the club in LaCombe. Instead, we waived vets White and Hagg in favor of rookies LaCombe, Mintyukov, and Luneau.

Someone shared a chart that our defense is in the positive xGF vs xGA chart.

Last year: GF = 206 (31st) at 2.54 goals/game, GA = 335 (32nd) at 4.33 goals allowed/game
This year: GF = 18 (18th-T) at 2.57 goals/game, , GA = 20 (13th) at 2.86 goals allowed/game

Last night's game against the Bruins, Mintyukov was out on the ice for both late 3rd period theatric goals, by keeping the pucks in the OZone. In OT, LaCombe helped recover the puck in the Dzone and pushed the puck forward that lead to the OT game winner.

It's a lot more fun with Carlsson on the ice, but we can win without Carlsson. Hell, we're playing well and winning without RD Drysdale, LW Killorn, and 3C Lundestrom. I don't think we're giving our defensive group a lot of love nor our 2nd line of Vatrano-Mac-Strome, which plays like a 1st line consistently.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Kind of like fans who wanted Leo to play in the SHL and now are complaining about him not playing every night in the NHL.

Were there many fans who wanted Carlsson to play in the SHL outright, though? I know I was vocal for it, but don't know of others. I'm not opposed to this NCAA schedule level (2 games close together and 4 to 5 days off). I just cared that Carlsson was playing top-6C minutes.

I've shared the reframe of saying Carlsson is on an SHL schedule, but the oppositional response was that Carlsson should be in the SHL than NHL. I think people just want to see Carlsson play often in the NHL and if they can't see him play, then it should be in the SHL. ::: raising shoulders :::

 

[Ducks DVM]

Can we really appeal to authority that this is the right path given 31 of 32 teams DON'T do it? And of course the agent supports it. His client is getting a full NHL salary for not a full NHL season and guarantees that their next contracts is 2 years earlier. I'm not even convinced it's not the right thing to do in general. But have I have said there are things I don't like about it. I don't think anyone here disputes that Leo at 100% makes this team better. I want the team to ice the best team possible to maximize their chances of winning games. The argument here is that given his age it is likely impossible for him to be 100% through the whole year. Exhaustion can be just as bad as an injury. I have no issues scratching Leo if he isn't 100% I do have issues with benching a 100% because he won't be 100% later. Scratch him as needed.

You need to look up appeal to authority.

They aren’t resting him. They are putting him through workouts on those off days to actually physically build him up, and not playing him as many games so that he can actually build muscle during the season. Your argument isn’t actually the argument being made by the team or the people agreeing with the team. Re-read the article.

 

[Deuce22]

Were there many fans who wanted Carlsson to play in the SHL outright, though? I know I was vocal for it, but don't know of others. I'm not opposed to this NCAA schedule level (2 games close together and 4 to 5 days off). I just cared that Carlsson was playing top-6C minutes.

I've shared the reframe of saying Carlsson is on an SHL schedule, but the oppositional response was that Carlsson should be in the SHL than NHL. I think people just want to see Carlsson play often in the NHL and if they can't see him play, then it should be in the SHL. ::: raising shoulders :::

I think it was more of he's not ready for the NHL or we should have taken Fantilli. Now that they've gotten a glimpse, they want him playing every single game for the Ducks.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

Can we really appeal to authority that this is the right path given 31 of 32 teams DON'T do it? And of course the agent supports it. His client is getting a full NHL salary for not a full NHL season and guarantees that their next contracts is 2 years earlier. I'm not even convinced it's not the right thing to do in general. But have I have said there are things I don't like about it. I don't think anyone here disputes that Leo at 100% makes this team better. I want the team to ice the best team possible to maximize their chances of winning games. The argument here is that given his age it is likely impossible for him to be 100% through the whole year. Exhaustion can be just as bad as an injury. I have no issues scratching Leo if he isn't 100% I do have issues with benching a 100% because he won't be 100% later. Scratch him as needed.

If the pattern is to play 2 games and have 4 to 5 days off afterwards per week, then there's a league that proves it works in body building and stamina called the NCAA. NCAA prospects are more physically mature because they're body building throughout the season with the necessary rest period.

What does Verbeek get out of this? Carlsson getting NHL experience and removing question marks so that next year we're gunning high from the start of the season. If Carlsson was in the SHL this year, then we still don't know how well he'll translate to the NHL. This way, Verbeek knows Carlsson can play in the NHL as well as controls how Carlsson is developing physically. This is about next season, but if we're in contention in the 2nd half, then Carlsson's body will, hopefully, be able to handle it better.

 

[Hockey Duckie]

I think it was more of he's not ready for the NHL or we should have taken Fantilli. Now that they've gotten a glimpse, they want him playing every single game for the Ducks.

No. I didn't think there's a lot of people saying he's not ready for the NHL. There wasn't a lot of people that wanted Carlsson at #2 overall. There were a lot of people that wanted Fantilli b/c his body is mostly a finished product with that blazing speed and goal scoring.

I said Carlsson's not ready physically, but I also said Fantilli should return to the NCAA to work on game, transition from puck hero mode to team driver mode as well as learn how to not get offensively muted against tougher competition. I really like Michigan's program and have Fantilli follow in the footsteps of Power, Beniers, L. Hughes, and Kent Johnson. Last year, Kent Johnson's game improved later into the season while McTavish's play stalled some to where Johnson almost caught up to McTavish's scoring production, an OHL product.

 

[DavidBL]

You need to look up appeal to authority.

They aren’t resting him. They are putting him through workouts on those off days to actually physically build him up, and not playing him as many games so that he can actually build muscle during the season. Your argument isn’t actually the argument being made by the team or the people agreeing with the team. Re-read the article.

So you don't think when @MMC said

And I for one am much more confident in the logical decisions of the front office and agent than the emotional ones of the fanbase...

You don't think he is appealing to the organizations and agents authority of a informed, "logical" decision?

I reread the article from NHL.com and I suggest you do the same. It doesn't ever mention additional workouts outside of the norm. Every player goes through off ice workouts throughout the year. Carlsson specifically mentions that, and I'm paraphrasing, "when you miss a game you have more energy for the next one." Maybe I'm just a simpleton but to me that just sounds like resting the player. They talk about building up muscle and getting stronger. He's going to do that by resting his body and letting it recover more fully from said workouts/games, which is fine but it's the recovery and rest that's likely to accomplish most of it.

Honestly, I'm not THAT upset by the decision. It bums me out for sure, but we have spent way to much time arguing about it. It's happening. Right or wrong. He gets to develop here where we can watch rather than in the SHL and we are going g to pay for it by having to extend him earlier then we would normally rather than his deal sliding 1-2 years. Might as well enjoy what we can get.

 

[Ducks DVM]

So you don't think when @MMC said

You don't think he is appealing to the organizations and agents authority of a informed, "logical" decision?

I reread the article from NHL.com and I suggest you do the same. It doesn't ever mention additional workouts outside of the norm. Every player goes through off ice workouts throughout the year. Carlsson specifically mentions that, and I'm paraphrasing, "when you miss a game you have more energy for the next one." Maybe I'm just a simpleton but to me that just sounds like resting the player. They talk about building up muscle and getting stronger. He's going to do that by resting his body and letting it recover more fully from said workouts/games, which is fine but it's the recovery and rest that's likely to accomplish most of it.

Honestly, I'm not THAT upset by the decision. It bums me out for sure, but we have spent way to much time arguing about it. It's happening. Right or wrong. He gets to develop here where we can watch rather than in the SHL and we are going g to pay for it by having to extend him earlier then we would normally rather than his deal sliding 1-2 years. Might as well enjoy what we can get.

Instead, it's because of a strength and development program devised by general manager Pat Verbeek, a way to keep Carlsson strong and healthy as he heads into a career that the Ducks hope and believe will be long and productive.

Carlsson said the off-ice training isn't anything unusual, what he called "hard summer training." He doesn't know all the ins and outs of when he will play and when he won't, so he's focused solely on being prepared when his name is called.

Asked if the program could spread to other players and other teams, Keator said, "I hope so, because it makes the most sense. … You're still growing, you're still developing. You don't have the man muscles. Leo still has a little-boy body in some ways, in terms of strength.

These are NOT normal in-season workouts. They are specifically limiting his games so that he has the ability to turn his “little boy body” into adult muscle. When he says ”it isn’t anything unusual”, he means it isn’t some new groundbreaking workout, it’s just the kind of hard summer workouts…which players use to build muscle. Terry put on 8# of muscle this summer. He put on 0# during the last season, because the stress of the NHL season doesn’t allow for it. If this was just typical in-season workouts, he would have referred to them as in-season workouts, not “hard summer training”.

If you want to call out one poster, I would suggest that you should quote them. Otherwise it results in anyone not holding your opinion thinking that you’re painting them with the same brush.

 

[The Midnight Burrito]

LOL at people getting indignant over anyone questioning management's data, whatever it is. Blood for the data gods!

 

[Ducks DVM]

LOL at people getting indignant over anyone questioning management's data, whatever it is. Blood for the data gods!

You lose style points for not incorporating the number 8 into your post somehow.