So I've never really followed the specifics of small ice vs. big ice, what are the major differences/adjustments in transitioning from Europe to NHL (aside from the obvious skill difference). I'd imagine top speed is more important on the big ice vs. acceleration on smaller ice. Also that mental processing speed, agility/changing directions, and stick handling are more important on small ice and spacial awareness (I guess that's the term?) would be harder on bigger ice because there's more space to lose players.
Player Discussion Leo Carlsson
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- Sep 21, 2018
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Mental processing speed is probably the biggest difference in my opinion. Also somewhat related, spatial awareness.
I agree, and I think it is just a lazy Swedish forward stereotype.
The lack of quality options on our roster, the decision to not outright send him to Sweden, and I think once he's in the building they won't want to send him off to other voices.
- Sep 21, 2018
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Hockey Duckie
Registered User
News in Sweden today, is quoting Leo saying that it's NHL or back to SHL.
Leo Carlsson: ”Satsar på ta plats i NHL”
Örebro har kämpat för att få Leo Carlsson fokusera på SHL. Supertalangen skulle också vara en nyckelspelare i ett slagkraftigt Juniorkronorna till hemma-JVM i Gwww.aftonbladet.se
If he were to return to the SHL, then that's a lot of development time lost with Orebro. The SHL pre-season starts on Aug 1 and Carlsson, if returned, won't return until November.
From the article, "The club management and the supporters have hoped that Leo Carlsson will stay in Örebro and be involved from the beginning of the season for his own development." I guess one can see it like NCAA players, either go full NA or stick with the SHL starting at SHL pre-season.
I know the Ducks' org wants to see what they have in Carlsson, but it doesn't make sense in my macro view for his development at center. Are we trying to develop Carlsson as a center? If so, then he won't be a top-9 center this year since we've already got Zegras, McTavish, and Lundy already set. Also, I think in one of Cronin's interview, Cronin said he envision Carlsson around 220 lbs. Carlsson is currently listed at 198 lbs.
Carlsson's aversion to the AHL doesn't make sense since it's the most efficient move for him and his development as a center with respect to coaches, teammates, and ice size. He would have already lost three months of personnel development, team development, and team chemistry with Orebro.
If they deem Carlsson to be ready for Center, I would imagine they start the Zegras-to-wing experiment early on.
Henrique and Strome can also play center, so if as an organization they have already determined that Zegras will end up playing wing, they could start that transition regardless if Carlsson is playing down the middle to start the year. I could see a scenario where McT and Henrique were your 1/2 Cs, allowing Carlsson to go the McT route and get some games in at wing before they start to transition him to center. In that same scenario I can see them playing Z at wing IF thats the guy theyve tagged to transition.
We have a lot of talented centers, I dont think we have anything set as far is who is/isnt a top 9 center. And dont forget about Gaucher either, who could be a possible 3/4C this season.
Zegras, Henrique, Strome, Lundy, McT, Carlsson, Gaucher, Carrick, Groulx, and even Nester are all listed as or capable of playing center.
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
Lack of quality options shouldn't be the defining determinant because it's putting necessity over development. Lundy was railroaded due to necessity and being the most NHL-ready 2018, 1st round draftee due to his defense. We stunted his offensive growth.
| Lundestrom | Sweden | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Year | League | Games | G | A | Pts | PPG | Plus/Minus | |
| 2016-17 | J20 Superelit | 10 | 3 | 4 | 7 | 0.70 | 3 | |
| SHL | 45 | 3 | 3 | 6 | 0.13 | -5 | ||
| 2017-18 | SHL | 42 | 6 | 9 | 15 | 0.36 | 7 | |
| 2018-19 | SHL | 17 | 2 | 7 | 9 | 0.53 | 5 | |
| SHL Playoffs | 10 | 2 | 6 | 8 | 0.80 | -2 | ||
| 2019-20 | n/a | |||||||
| 2020-21 | HockeyAllsvenskan | 12 | 5 | 6 | 11 | 0.92 | 7 |
Lundy never had a long enough burn to develop his offense in the SHL after being drafted in 2018 NHL draft.
| Lundestrom | North America | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Year | League | Games | G | A | Pts | PPG | Plus/Minus | |
| 2018-19 | NHL | 15 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0.13 | -1 | |
| AHL | 12 | 0 | 6 | 6 | 0.50 | -6 | ||
| 2019-20 | NHL | 15 | 0 | 4 | 4 | 0.27 | -2 | |
| AHL | 43 | 6 | 15 | 21 | 0.49 | -6 | ||
| 2020-21 | NHL | 41 | 6 | 3 | 9 | 0.22 | -9 | |
| 2021-22 | NHL | 80 | 16 | 13 | 29 | 0.36 | -3 | |
| 2022-23 | NHL | 64 | 4 | 10 | 14 | 0.22 | -13 |
Although we hope offense would spring from Lundy, we've mostly put him in 3C shutdown role.
His best production was under Dineen. The light clicked on when Lundy was demoted in 2020-21 to continue to learn playing wing. Dineen did something where Lundy was just flying as a wing in AHL pre-season games and never did play a regular season AHL game because he was called up to the big club.
I want Carlsson acclimating to the center position ASAP and the SHL was the way to go, but we've already disrupted the normal course because he's on NA ice this pre-season. Is Carlsson going to challenge for bottom-6C and play in only bottom-6 minutes? Is he going to be on the wing, like Zegras and McTavish before him to start the NHL?
Carlsson stating the AHL isn't an option is irksome.
Deuce22
Registered User
When you're drafted second overall, you have leverage. Carlsson is using his. I kind of like the cockiness of what he's saying. He's comfortable in Sweden, so that is OK with him, but if he's coming to the U.S. it's going to be in the NHL.
Can always drop Lundy to 4C, or over to 3rd line wing. if they want Carlsson to start at C. Eventually can give him more ice time, and promote him to the Top 6, similar to McTavish's rookie season.
With Z. Mac, and Leo, Someone is going to wing, and my money is on Z.
With Z. Mac, and Leo, Someone is going to wing, and my money is on Z.
I'd rather him play 1st line minutes in Sweden next year than 3rd line minutes in the NHL. Just my preference for his development. Make him "the guy" in Sweden with lots of PP time and offensive situations.
The Midnight Burrito
True Fan
Or they could create a 2a/2b system with the lines and treat them both as auxiliary offense options where you're always trying to get at least one of them a favorable defensive matchup. He could center one of those. Lord knows we have plenty of forwards whose dials are turned all the way over to offense before defense.
Vipers31
Advanced Stagnostic
If it comes to that, the SHL is the better league to develop IMHO pretty easily. Size of the rink isn’t that much of an issue, unless you’re a goalie or a slow physical defenseman leaving the smaller rink. More structured game, and less time spent on busses leaving more time for the gym.
I feel like McTavish’s one-timer makes him a better candidate for the wing, but Z can rip it pretty good too
Any 3 of the leagues are fine to develop in and all will have their positives and negatives. I really dont think its an issue regardless of whats decided.
AHL - At least hes learning the North American game, getting used to the rinks and is being be coached and watched over by our staff so they can have a hand in his development.
SHL - a better league than the AHL and a higher level of competition. Downside is his development is kind of left to someone else.
NHL - too much, too quick? Might not be playing center, might not be getting as much ice time, might not be the goto center. At least he would be in the system, learning from the staff and developing how they see fit.
AHL - At least hes learning the North American game, getting used to the rinks and is being be coached and watched over by our staff so they can have a hand in his development.
SHL - a better league than the AHL and a higher level of competition. Downside is his development is kind of left to someone else.
NHL - too much, too quick? Might not be playing center, might not be getting as much ice time, might not be the goto center. At least he would be in the system, learning from the staff and developing how they see fit.
Hockey Duckie
Registered User
Why is going back to the SHL a negative idea? For the past two seasons, Orebro has cultivated Carlsson's development and growth to be selected #2 overall. After he's drafted, we don't believe in their ability to develop Carlsson? The only concern about going back to the SHL if he'll be playing center.
Going back to the SHL if Carlsson is on NA for pre-season, then it's not ideal to return to the SHL because he'll be missing three months with Orebro. SHL pre-season starts Aug 1 and Carlsson won't be returned until November, the 9th game for the Ducks is Oct 30th.
The Midnight Burrito
True Fan
Oh you think it'll end then?
And thats why there is concern, or there is a negative with the SHL. Anaheim doesnt have control of the players development at that point. Its not that Obebro cant develop him or hasnt thus far. Im not saying its a deal breaker, just that each league is going to have its drawbacks as well as positive points. SHLs drawback is his development is in someone elses hands and if they really need him to play wing and we want him playing center, well, not our decision.
You also assume though that they will give him the full 9 game look, or that he would play a full 9 in a row. For all we know, they could see something early on in pre-season and decide to send him back without playing a NHL game (doubtful), or they decide not to burn all 9 games, or something else.
Vaakou
Registered User
When listening to him speak, both in English and in Swedish, i don't get the "vibe" that he would go against the Ducks wishes as to in what league he plays in. If he goes back to Örebro, then i think it's a joint decision. If after the dev camp, the Ducks think he it's best for his development to be in the AHL i think he will play there anyway. I personally don't mind him going back to Sweden for a year. With the improvments to the Gulls coachingstaff and a stronger focus on development than before, rather than winning games, AHL seems like alot better option then last year.
Are we sure about this? The thing about the SHL is that it's a pro league that is run that way. His team's first obligation is to win, not develop.
The AHL may be slightly inferior quality, but it is still a controlled environment run by team employees. What we want him to work on will be worked on. The SHL coaches might be cordial and agree with things, but ultimately their team will be run their way, carlsson included.
- Sep 21, 2018
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What's more, the AHL is very explicitly a developmental league. There are literally rules in place to ensure that.
Yup, he will still likely get some benefit from playing over there and for all we know, he plays #1C all season and it helps his development. But if thats not what they need, they will do what they need to for them to win.
Vipers31
Advanced Stagnostic
It being a developmental league by design doesn’t make it better at developing, though. I have more faith in the SHL environment.
