Legacies that were hurt/helped by off-ice behavior

[vadim sharifijanov]

I think at the time it looked bad on him. There were two guys who had limited playing time and one was St. Louis and the other was Subban. There was a big difference in their attitudes and I am pretty sure most of us would have guessed Subban as the more entitled one right? Well, we were wrong. St. Louis is the reigning Art Ross winner and Subban is the reigning Norris winner and both deserved more ice time I think. Subban seemed to take it in stride and had a happy go lucky attitude about it by the looks of it, even getting right close to Toews and Crosby smiling ear to ear for the gold medal picture. St. Louis seemed more upset about it more so that his own GM in Tampa (Yzerman) didn't initially pick him.

We saw the same thing in Toronto with Joseph in 2002 after Quinn replaced him with Brodeur in the Olympics. I mean, check your ego at the door on those teams, you are all stars.

not to condone msl's behaviour, but at the same time much easier to have a just happy to be here attitude as a young guy at the beginning of your career than an old guy on his last kick of the can.

of subban doesn't make the next team, and with canada's loaded right side he might not, i think he will retrospectively be a lot more bitter that pietrangelo played ahead of him in '14.

Interesting. So you think they would prefer that things don't get brought up again about how a junior coach could abuse his power against a guy for so long without anyone helping him? I am not an expert in sexual abuse, but I will say that these guys are master manipulators. It wasn't as if Graham James was doing this stuff out in the open. He was Fleury's coach, among other boys. Nobody, including the parents or boarders would bat an eyelash if a coach is hanging around his players in a chummy way. I am not saying there aren't those that were "in the know" about this that could have helped (Penn State is an example) but to think that everyone around James or Fleury should have seen what was happening is really underrating the genius that is a man like James. Think about Ariel Castro in Cleveland holding three girls captive in his own home for a decade. How does a next door neighbour not know this? Would you know your neighbour is doing this? I wouldn't. It isn't as if these guys aren't masters at hiding things.

That being said you really think that's the reason Fleury is being kept out, just to maintain the image of junior hockey?

i don't really think there are guys out there where you could say they knew and did nothing, like say harold ballard. i mean maybe, but i like to assume better of people than that unless given a reason not to. so i don't mean it to sound quite as sinister as you are maybe taking it.

but at the same time, i do think that how hockey canada operates, and how the HHOF operates, and in a way how canada in general operates, is you avoid a fuss if you can avoid a fuss. and i think serious questions that could be asked during a dissection of fleury's career, those are questions best avoided from the perspective of the hhof committee.

and in a way, there is also potentially an indictment on the very institution of canadian major junior hockey that accompanies a close hard look at fleury's story, with questions about who is profiting from basically free labour from kids who in many cases are also being deprived of a high school education, and what those interested stakeholders are letting slide-- and if you ask me that is a much needed discussion to have. but i digress.

 

[Moose Head]

Tim Thomas. Was a great story of how he got to the NHL. Seemed like one of the most likeable Bruins and a guy that was easy to cheer for.

Then he had to talk politics, and things got weird....

 

[Laphroaig]

While I know it's not popular opinion, I'm going to disagree with you on Lanny McDonald.

Tiger and Lanny were best buddies; after Tiger was asked to shadow him in their '82 opening round series (McDonald had a single assist in the series as his Flames got swept), McDonald whined about Tiger crossing the line, and how he could no longer be his friend.

By 80's hockey standards I thought that was a really [bad] move by McDonald. You choked and got outperformed by the guy lining up across from you. Get over it.

I saw Lanny McDonald in an interview with Bob McCown earlier this year and came away absolutely despising the man. McDonald got really obnoxious because McCown suggested that the HHOF voting should be made public as is done in baseball. Unfortunately McDonald is now the director of the HHOF so don't expect any reforms or improvements.

 

[Killion]

I saw Lanny McDonald in an interview with Bob McCown earlier this year and came away absolutely despising the man. McDonald got really obnoxious because McCown suggested that the HHOF voting should be made public as is done in baseball. Unfortunately McDonald is now the director of the HHOF so don't expect any reforms or improvements.

Is he now? Had no idea. And yes, I share your opinion about the man but for other reasons.

 

[sr edler]

Tim Thomas. Was a great story of how he got to the NHL. Seemed like one of the most likeable Bruins and a guy that was easy to cheer for.

Then he had to talk politics, and things got weird....

I don't care one iota about his politics, but to me he definitely did not come across as likeable. He came across as very smug and childish.

 

[Killion]

I don't care one iota about his politics, but to me he definitely did not come across as likeable. He came across as very smug and childish.

Yes. Certain arrogance about the man & his attitude decidedly off-putting. Odorous & in his case Totally Trailer Park. Agree.... Some Goalies edler.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Tim Thomas. Was a great story of how he got to the NHL. Seemed like one of the most likeable Bruins and a guy that was easy to cheer for.

Then he had to talk politics, and things got weird....

I didn't know being a libertarian could hurt your career.

 

[Hawksfan2828]

Yes. Certain arrogance about the man & his attitude decidedly off-putting. Odorous & in his case Totally Trailer Park. Agree.... Some Goalies edler.

The guy didn't care.... I think he loved being a goalie but hated the media attention.

That doesn't hurt him....

 

[SatanwasaSlovak]

I didn't know being a libertarian could hurt your career.

In this generation of special snowflakes, any opinion that's beside what they believe is the correct one is insulting to them.

Avery pissed off all the wrong people. Good player, even better agitator. Unfortunately in a time where PC-policies and PR-management from Bettman was becoming a thing.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Glenn Anderson due to many off ice rumours. But having a guy die in your pool and the tox return. Did not help. Whenever you hear reporters sayinG 'all because the went to uni does not mean they are smater then the rest' is usually aimed at andersons legacy

 

[Jumptheshark]

I didn't know being a libertarian could hurt your career.

He is not a libertarian he is a member of the tea party. There is a huge difference

 

[billybudd]

Any instances throughout hockey history of players whose perception was tarnished/elevated based on things they did away from the rink?

Hurt: Brodeur (adulterer), Roy, Hasek (assault on reporter), Vanbiesbrouck (bigot), Lindros (unusually demanding/primadonna)

Helped: Mario (cancer/rescued franchise), Gretzky (no dirt despite immense visibility/model citizen/promotes game constantly/not critical), Rocket Richard, Sedins, Luongo, Subban, Theo Fleury

Who are yours?

I don't think anyone but Sean Avery really cared about Brodeur's adultery. That's more of a thing guys said to get under his skin because they knew he was good. Now that he's retired, it'll never be heard of again, except by aging guys whose teams lost to Brodeur once upon a time.

With Hasek and Vanbiesbrouck, idek what the heck you're talking about. Hasek is correctly regarded as one of the best netminders ever. JV is correctly regarded as one of the better goaltenders deservedly on the outside looking in. So whatever these incidents were, there's no evidence their legacies were harmed.

Lindros' longevity is more of a problem for him than his attitude. We're talking about a guy who embezzled from the PA to go on expensive vacations and that's completely forgotten. You have two factions with him 1) hurt too much, didn't accomplish enough, 2) was really good when he wasn't hurt. There's no "was good enough, but too big of a jerk" faction.


Tom Barrasso's the guy who's legacy was hurt by off-ice behavior. Still holds a variety of records for American born netminders as well as the NHL assist and assist per game record at the position. Calder, Vezina, several runner ups for Vezina, 2 championships...that's a Hall of Fame career. But he'll never be in because he made Belfour look like a solid citizen.

Theo Fleury's another.

Arguably Shore's legacy was damaged as well.

Edit: whoever said Thomas, good call. He went from American hero to a non-person among the media basically overnight.

 

[Moose Head]

I didn't know being a libertarian could hurt your career.

I don't agree with his politics, but quite frankly I don't care if that's his choice. Whether he agrees or not, he made a special moment for his teammates about himself. For that, he's an ass.

 

[EpochLink]

Glenn Anderson due to many off ice rumours. But having a guy die in your pool and the tox return. Did not help. Whenever you hear reporters sayinG 'all because the went to uni does not mean they are smater then the rest' is usually aimed at andersons legacy

I heard that he is a dead beat father as well, again can't confirm if true but that is one story that stuck out about Anderson.

 

[Passchendaele]

I heard that he is a dead beat father as well, again can't confirm if true but that is one story that stuck out about Anderson.

You decide.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-pay-child-support-for-son-13/article1027950/

 

[Hasbro]

I think goalies get more leeway here considering the propensity for eccentricity in the position.

That said it makes Barasso look like an even bigger jerk.

 

[Boxscore]

Neely is in the HHOF because he was beloved by the entire hockey community. Lindros is not in the HHOF because the hockey community doesn't love him the way they did Neely.

I also think Doug Harvey isn't beloved as much as he should be due to some off ice / image stuff that tainted his legacy a tad.

 

[IComeInPeace]

You decide.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-pay-child-support-for-son-13/article1027950/

Sounds like a deadbeat dad to me.

 

[Moose Head]

Neely is in the HHOF because he was beloved by the entire hockey community. Lindros is not in the HHOF because the hockey community doesn't love him the way they did Neely.

Cheevers/Barrasso might be another example of this phenomenon

 

[Jumptheshark]

You decide.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-pay-child-support-for-son-13/article1027950/

In a recent interview with the Vancouver Province, Mr. Anderson said his job and financial prospects have crashed since his NHL career ended in 1996. Mr. Anderson, who earned $1.25-million in 1993 with the Toronto Maple Leafs, lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in bad investments and hasn't held a regular job since he hung up his skates.

some of the bad investments was his involvement in a group that were building "luxury resorts" in the Bahamas and Jamaica. They started with a lot of fan fair--but due extremely bad weather and damage from a Hurricane before the insurance was secured (that was the party line) the enterprise went belly up. Do not know how Anderson lost, but some hotel companies lost millions

 

[Moose Head]

I don't care one iota about his politics, but to me he definitely did not come across as likeable. He came across as very smug and childish.

I'm guessing you're a Nucks fan. You're just angry he didn't want to pump Luongo's tires.

Whatever, I liked his story of how he got to the NHL and at a relatively old age became one of its best goalies. Based on that story he could have had s nice legacy, but he hurt it with making the White House visit about him and then turning back on his team and taking a year off. Selfish acts.

 

[gifted88]

For Tim Thomas it wasn't what he believed in that was the turn off, It was his actions. I'm sure plenty of NHLers didn't agree with the president or his political party, but that didn't stop them from joining their team when being honored at the white house. Plus his social media posts came off as preachy.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

For Tim Thomas it wasn't what he believed in that was the turn off, It was his actions. I'm sure plenty of NHLers didn't agree with the president or his political party, but that didn't stop them from joining their team when being honored at the white house. Plus his social media posts came off as preachy.

And that he publicly aired his political views on facebook and then complained about his privacy when reporters asked him about them made him look more like a petulant jerk.

 

[hototogisu]

Gimme a break! The guy was all-class for 15 years, and then he has one contract dispute shortly before retirement and he "killed his image"? Is it not possible that he was going to leave Tampa, regardless of what happened with the Olympic team (which he, in fact, ended up on)?

St.Louis is, and deserves to be remembered as, one of the all-time class players in NHL history.

Eh, it still fits the thread to me. St. Louis had that near-holy image for years of the little guy who not only made it but became a superstar at a time when little guys just didn't play in the league. Like you said, he had a 15 year track record, and then at the end there were a couple of things that just made you say "hmm". No doubt he had to play with a chip on his shoulder for years, but you started to wonder if the chip was getting a little oversized. I think it took the shine off him a little bit.

It's like that old saying goes, it takes 20 years to build a reputation and 20 minutes to destroy it. Not that he destroyed anything, obviously, but it just goes to show how little it takes to start casting shade on an otherwise unblemished career.

 

[crobro]

Barry Beck debt collecting for the boys must not have looked good .