News Article: Lebreton...UPDATE - Agreement made with NCC.

[Stylizer1]

Yes, pickup is not very good at the arena. It would be worse than the airport where there was a monopoly by the taxi company in collusion with the airport. I think an Uber could pick you up if you called it though.


Did they say what the expected cleanup cost is estimated to be?

It was 50 million like 8-10 years ago.

 

[PlayersLtd]

It was 50 million like 8-10 years ago.

I don't think that number applies. 8-10 years ago they didn't have an arena site so who knows what the old hypotheticals applied to. Could be more, could be less.

Also, one thing people need to keep in mind is that the decontamination costs are only those above and beyond the excavation and hauling costs that would be assumed for the project regardless. So if it was $50M 8-10 years ago but that was from scratch, the actual cost for decontamination now that there is the need to excavate comes down to just the additional tipping or incineration fees and potentially added hauling costs depending on where the contaminated fill disposal site is.

It's not quite that simple but point is a huge percentage of the cost is now assumed in the need to excavate regardless. This doesn't necessarily favour the Sens unless the NCC says they will assume 100% of the costs to decontaminate and they transfer over the open hole. That will 'save' the sens 10's of millions. But as others have pointed out, it all comes out in the wash in the final sale price.

 

[Micklebot]

It was 50 million like 8-10 years ago.

Was that for the full project? The rendezvous bid was for a much larger development, not just the arena.

 

[GCK]

Andlauer wants to have the rink done in 5 years.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

18,000 seats?

Does anyone know how many parking spaces would be required for an 18,000 seat arena?

One sight says 1 spot per 3.5 attendees. That would mean 18,000 / 3.5 = 5,142 spots.

Parking? They’ll end up with a bunch of tulips, bike lanes and bike racks. LOL.

 

[Tuna99]

Andlauer wants to have the rink done in 5 years.

Sounds like a job for the O-Train guys.

What do you bet - Gabriel Elliason plays his first game downtown or in Kanata? I’ll say downtown

 

[Stylizer1]

Was that for the full project? The rendezvous bid was for a much larger development, not just the arena.

Probably. There was never a deal for just the land the arena is on.

 

[Stylizer1]

On a brighter note saw good ol Jimmy boy Watson today at the Harvest Festival. Boy did he get a stern looking at when he wasn't looking.

 

[milkbag]

On a brighter note saw good ol Jimmy boy Watson today at the Harvest Festival. Boy did he get a stern looking at when he wasn't looking.

Did he bring his own ribbon to cut? It always seemed like a pretty severe addiction to me

 

[mysens]

I hope to god they don't do anything remotely like Lansdown. That place is void of any substance, big boxes, and concrete.


you don't think all of those parking space will be used by the tenants? Even people who don't use their spots rent them out for big bucks.

Not if the proposed build is to have some 25% affordability housing, which usually means people will not have vehicles. And, typically when building a multi unit close to LRT or public transit, vehicle parking spaces are discouraged for the builder. So, my impression of talking to people close to this, these towers will have ample spaces many levels underground for events.

 

[mysens]

Cleanup for 10acres will be about 10-20million…..the cost to purchase land should be in the range of 15-20million. So it could be a wash. Clean the land and it’s your for cheap. If NCC cleans the land, then fair market value would be as stated above for clean, non contaminated land.

 

[Masked]

On a brighter note saw good ol Jimmy boy Watson today at the Harvest Festival. Boy did he get a stern looking at when he wasn't looking.

For what he's done to the city, he should be heckled whenever he's in public.

 

[Stylizer1]

Not if the proposed build is to have some 25% affordability housing, which usually means people will not have vehicles. And, typically when building a multi unit close to LRT or public transit, vehicle parking spaces are discouraged for the builder. So, my impression of talking to people close to this, these towers will have ample spaces many levels underground for events.

You clearly don't know people in affordable housing. I don't see them setting aside parking spaces in a residential building for general parking. Name one residential building in this city where this is the case? Not all apartments come with parking spots and for the ones that are available they go to the people willing to pay for them. Now what those people do with them is up to them if it was included with the purchase of their condo they could rent it out to another tenant. The security issue's alone is why this won't happen.

For what he's done to the city, he should be heckled whenever he's in public.

Yeah, no.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I suspect 'fair market value' is a bit misleading since the value of the land is going to be intrinsically linked to the cost of decontamination which as I understand it is still an unknown both in terms of scope and who's taking it on. I'd throw acquisition cost out the window, Andlauer could end up getting it for a song at the end of the day.

Here is how the optimist in me sees this the more I think about it. The Sens have just 'purchased' a parcel of land that the federal government has a massive stake in. We know the NCC isn't going to go halfway with Lebreton and through leases and land sales etc... they essentially have an unlimited budget to develop it into a model of sustainability that makes it a global icon. We're talking a gold standard master plan that goes up against anything out there in the world's most forward thinking cities.

For an example think of what the Highline did for the City of New York... That project singlehandedly put New York back on the map and will pay dividends for the next century. It gets written up in all kinds of publications and New York and the various authorities involved did an excellent job to leverage the good press and maximize the return on the project in general.

So, if the NCC is going global with Lebreton what's a little help in making sure the arena is the hallmark of the whole thing? Especially when the help could be conveniently baked into the decontamination or land transfer. It can also be concealed under the guise of the partnership, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I could think of 100 ways the NCC could pitch in in a way that manages the optics- they cover the cost of all public space around the arena for example, or all the infrastructure...

With such a massive opportunity and all sorts of global recognition at stake the City of Ottawa isn't going to sit idly by, they will do everything to hitch their trailer to it. It would be bad business to not get involved. Maybe the Province too.

So, the Sens have the opportunity to position themselves and the arena as a relatively affordable part of something absolutely massive with a lineup of drooling stakeholders looking to have their name stamped somewhere amongst it. It's a scenario where you could see the burden of the $1B price tag for the arena portion of the project creatively slashed to make sure it becomes a worthy centrepiece to everything else that will happen at Lebreton.

I really hope that's the case.

Problem here is....does the government even have the money? All levels of government have been spending foolishly, and the city of Ottawa is in one hell of a budget crunch (at least according to the newspapers). Then add in the bad press over how Calgary got bent over for the Flames...optics now would crucify any politician handing out money to yet another NHL team in this country.

This feels like the worst possible time to be looking for tax dollars in any form.

 

[mysens]

You clearly don't know people in affordable housing. I don't see them setting aside parking spaces in a residential building for general parking. Name one residential building in this city where this is the case? Not all apartments come with parking spots and for the ones that are available they go to the people willing to pay for them. Now what those people do with them is up to them if it was included with the purchase of their condo they could rent it out to another tenant. The security issue's alone is why this won't happen.


Yeah, no.

This is a project that is like no other. And, the developers are the teams partners. They can do whatever they want to make this work. I would have no problem to have allocated 1000 parking spaces in each of the three buildings or however many needed. This is a long term solution that has limited acreage for the said facility. Believe me., I am very familiar with affordable housing and how the CHMC approves projects for affordable housing.

 

[PlayersLtd]

This is a project that is like no other. And, the developers are the teams partners. They can do whatever they want to make this work. I would have no problem to have allocated 1000 parking spaces in each of the three buildings or however many needed. This is a long term solution that has limited acreage for the said facility. Believe me., I am very familiar with affordable housing and how the CHMC approves projects for affordable housing.

I don't know how you would design the egress needed under a tower for a 1000 car exodus after an event. From my experience parkades that accommodate mass exits like that have a big enough footprint so they can be broken up into sections each with their own entry/exit and each designed to disperse cars at opposite ends.

Valet parking can work in the situation you're talking about though.

 

[PlayersLtd]

For anyone who is curious, TD Garden offers a model similar to what we might expect. Heavily dependant on public transit, few parking lots nearby.

The largest parking lot is directly under the arena and it has 1755 spots. TD Garden is built on only 3.2 acres.

So assuming the budget was there a parking complex under a 10 acre plot could accommodate perhaps 5,000 vehicles, or 1 in 4 patrons.

At $40 per vehicle that would generate $200k per game or $8M per year off hockey alone. Multiply by X for other events + day parking and it would seem it could pay itself off quite quickly.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Is the area even suitable for a multi-level underground parking lot? Don't we have a lot of limestone around Ottawa and other poor types of bedrock that played a role in the LRT delays (and, I presume, the multiple sinkholes over the last decade)?

The way things are around here and the transit setup, you definitely need a decent amount of good parking options. It's one thing to rely mostly on transit in a place like Vancouver or Toronto (where a lot of it is underground)...it's a bit different around Ottawa. Gets pretty darned cold around here in winter, and people don't like waiting half a century for a bus.

 

[bert]

Leader and NCC in presser said if Sens do the cleanup, price will reflect that. If NCC does the cleanup, then price will be fair market value for that land.

They haven’t determined it yet.

Yeah this is the sellers issue. Expecting full market value for a house that needs a new foundation for example is simply not how it works. Frankly the NCC will never have a partner for this like the sens. Sell the land to them for 1 dollar and let them do the clean up. Just like Toronto did for the ACC.

 

[mysens]

Yeah this is the sellers issue. Expecting full market value for a house that needs a new foundation for example is simply not how it works. Frankly the NCC will never have a partner for this like the sens. Sell the land to them for 1 dollar and let them do the clean up. Just like Toronto did for the ACC.

This is exactly what I was implying above....the clean up and the value of the land could be close to a wash. Your thinking is on par with what the Sens are going to do. We all need to remember this land has been vacant for more than half a century due to its contamination. So this is also a win for the NCC to get rid of it.

For anyone who is curious, TD Garden offers a model similar to what we might expect. Heavily dependant on public transit, few parking lots nearby.

The largest parking lot is directly under the arena and it has 1755 spots. TD Garden is built on only 3.2 acres.

So assuming the budget was there a parking complex under a 10 acre plot could accommodate perhaps 5,000 vehicles, or 1 in 4 patrons.

At $40 per vehicle that would generate $200k per game or $8M per year off hockey alone. Multiply by X for other events + day parking and it would seem it could pay itself off quite quickly.

This is a great breakdown of how this can be a money-maker for the owners.....Valet etc, and I would bet that its going to be more than $40.

 

[coladin]

Is the area even suitable for a multi-level underground parking lot? Don't we have a lot of limestone around Ottawa and other poor types of bedrock that played a role in the LRT delays (and, I presume, the multiple sinkholes over the last decade)?

The way things are around here and the transit setup, you definitely need a decent amount of good parking options. It's one thing to rely mostly on transit in a place like Vancouver or Toronto (where a lot of it is underground)...it's a bit different around Ottawa. Gets pretty darned cold around here in winter, and people don't like waiting half a century for a bus.

Yeah, this could be very problematic. How stable is the land there?

You’d have to think that during the first go around with Melnyk/Ruddy that there are tests that were done. Enough tests to propose what they wanted to build , one would think.

Having 60 school buses two or three nights a week, à la RedBlacks is probably something that will be done on a smaller scale. Maybe park and rides from the govt lots near Rochester/Booth, or any lots nearby. That could remove some pressure.

If I were part of the design process, I would definitely design a LRT entrance to possibly the bottom of the arena, like Penn Station/MSG . A track that goes back and forth from Bayview.

I would also design a Sens World that is weather proof , maybe a clear , retractable roof area , a 400 x 400 area or something like that where in snow storms you can still have a functional entertainment area that is covered from the elements .

I think they are going to have some interesting sketching designs . And I really liked what Cyril said , if I understood correctly, in that they don’t want to open the arena around a mud pit, rather a more cohesive opening of “everything “ ready around the same time.

 

[Golden_Jet]

For anyone who is curious, TD Garden offers a model similar to what we might expect. Heavily dependant on public transit, few parking lots nearby.

The largest parking lot is directly under the arena and it has 1755 spots. TD Garden is built on only 3.2 acres.

So assuming the budget was there a parking complex under a 10 acre plot could accommodate perhaps 5,000 vehicles, or 1 in 4 patrons.

At $40 per vehicle that would generate $200k per game or $8M per year off hockey alone. Multiply by X for other events + day parking and it would seem it could pay itself off quite quickly.

Ottawa currently has parking for 6,500 vehicles on 48 acres. Thought I read building was just under 6 acres. That’s 54 total. I realize you’re talking underground.
Underground parking would be a slow exit after games.

 

[JD1]

On a brighter note saw good ol Jimmy boy Watson today at the Harvest Festival. Boy did he get a stern looking at when he wasn't looking.

Jimmy "what's app" Watson.

Should be incarcerated for keeping info from council

The LRT has been compromised every step of the way trying to keep to Jimmy's budget.

 

[Joeyjoejoe]

Remember idiots here that were saying that the team could move. Ahhh good times

 

[Masked]

Yeah this is the sellers issue. Expecting full market value for a house that needs a new foundation for example is simply not how it works. Frankly the NCC will never have a partner for this like the sens. Sell the land to them for 1 dollar and let them do the clean up. Just like Toronto did for the ACC.

Just giving the Senators the land could be profitable for the NCC because it will drive up the value of their remaining parcels of land at Lebreton allowing them to lease it out at a higher price.